Staredit Network > Forums > SC1 UMS Theory and Ideas > Topic: SC1 map making wishlist
SC1 map making wishlist
Mar 30 2016, 6:17 pm
By: Clokr_  

Mar 30 2016, 6:17 pm Clokr_ Post #1



Since there are rumors that Blizzard is getting good old SC some makeup I thought it could be a good idea to make a list of map making features that *should* make it into a new version of StarCraft. These should not affect melee gameplay, should not be dangerous to the users (i.e. free coding) and should no compromise Blizzard's image (we all know what would happen if staredit would allow custom grps, the problem was already bad enough with all those dirty tank defenses). I'm not sure how feasible would be getting the list to the actual developing team, since you have to get through the support guys to do that, but I think its worth a try. I will start:


I will keep editing this post with all our suggestions. Retrocompatibility with older maps is kept in mind.

  • Increase the existing limits of in-game units, sprites, doodads, etc.
  • More than two heights of terrain and more doodads, including wider ramps.
  • More complex unit/weapon/upgrade settings, such as unit walking speed, ammount of supply it provides, permanent cloaking, weapon attack range, ammount of defense provided by each upgrade, etc.
  • Being able to modify the orders available for a specific unit, such as if it can move or attack or in case of factories/workers the units/buildings they can build.
  • Include the following extra trigger conditions/actions:
    • Non-blocking waits: each time a wait trigger action is executed for one player any other trigger for the same player trying to execute a wait action gets put on hold until the first wait ends. A non-blocking wait action would be able to run even if there is already some wait in action.
    • Variables: at the moment StarCraft only support boolean variables named switches. Some integer counters (such as death counters for unused units) are often used as integer variables, but their avalability strongly depends on the map, and doing simple arithmetic with them is extremely difficult. Trigger conditions/actions are needed to store/compare integer values and perform simple arithmetical operations with them.
    • Unit identifiers: several techniques exist to keep track of a single unit in a custom map and make trigger actions operate upon it, but all of them are very limited. A trigger action is needed to assign a specific unit identifier to a particular unit and then have the option in the remaining trigger actions to target it.
    • Unit stats: unit stats such as HP, energy and shields at the moment cannot be read and can only be set to a certain percentage. We would like to have trigger conditions and actions to check their values (equal, less than, more than) and to set them (to a fixed value or increase/decrease them a fixed ammount). Other stats such as ensnare, parasite, defense matrix, etc. cannot be checked or set in any form, and should also have corresponding trigger conditions/actions.

      Other unit stats worth being modifiable by triggers: unit color, unit facing direction, unit build queue (factories), building being built (workers), unit weapon cooldown, unit target (in case it is attacking something or moving towards something), unit kill count, unit current speed.
    • Unit/weapon/upgrade/technology properties: a lot of attributes (such as unit max HP, cost, weapon damage, upgrade building time, etc.) can be modified on the map editor but remain fixed for the rest of the game. Trigger conditions/actions are needed to retrieve this information and modify it dynamically. This also includes the extended unit settings/possible orders included in the above suggestions.
    • Player stats: a lot of attributes (such as which units the player can build, how many upgrades the player currently has, the force the player is in, etc.) can be modified on the map editor but remain fixed for the rest of the game. Trigger conditions/actions are needed to retrieve this information and modify it dynamically.

      Other player stats would include the current player selection or the remaining game pauses the player still has.
    • Moving locations: actually locations can only be moved on top of a unit in another location. A trigger action is needed to move a location to a particular set of fixed coordinates. If variables are implemented, a trigger action will also be needed to save to a variable the position coordinates of a certain unit in a certain location.
    • Orders: the order trigger action should be expanded to include other orders such as 'non-move', 'patrol', 'attack specific target', 'build unit' (factory buildings) or 'build building' (workers) or 'cast spell' (spell-casting units).
    • Text commands: a trigger condition is needed which parses the text when a new message is sent by a certain player to interpret basic commands.
    • Game data: trigger conditions/actions to check and modify the current game speed and the networking latency settings (even outside the range allowed by the game options menu), the force names, the map title, and the minimap color state (allies vs foes, or player color), and a trigger condition to check whether the map is being played in single player or in battle.net. These would provide a much better ambientation for the player.


Post has been edited 5 time(s), last time on Apr 9 2016, 9:24 am by Clokr_.



?????

Mar 30 2016, 10:26 pm LoveLess Post #2

Let me show you how to hump without making love.

I don't want a full overhaul of the engine, just more implicit tools with what is currently available. Reasonable request in my opinion.

The additions that I would like to see are basically make all the simple things we need EUDs for to be implemented to the core game. The ability to read and modify HP, MP, attack speed, attack damage, upgrades, etc. through at least triggers. Adding more scripts for casting spells or just implementing our own AI scripts in general. The ability to reserve unit index IDs unless you state otherwise, useful for EUDs. The ability to set and remove status flags for ensnare, parasite, defense matrix, etc.



None.

Mar 30 2016, 10:34 pm Roy Post #3

An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death

Pessimist reporting in. Going by the Diablo II and Warcraft III patches seen earlier this month, this is probably all they're going to do:

- Compatibility with modern operating systems
- Patching exploits / hacks

Mapmaking wasn't addressed at all for Warcraft III, so there's no reason to suspect SC1 will be any different.

My wishlist is only one thing: that they don't break EUDs.




Mar 30 2016, 10:54 pm BloodyZombie117 Post #4

I have no idea what to put here... So I guess I'll just put this here.

I don't know, I'd love an overhaul of the engine... Just keep the same art style because it looks so much better than SC2, at least in my opinion anyways.
That way it'd fix compatibility issues as well as give us more stuff to work with...
But definitely need an increase for units, locations, doodads, etc; while also not breaking current EUDs because those will break current maps.

People can dream. That's all I do.




Mar 31 2016, 7:51 am Clokr_ Post #5



Forget about a patch not breaking current EUDs. They don't do it on purpose: any changes at the memory layout by including a new variable in some class and bam! all EUDs change. What they should do is make them proper trigger conditions which are stable between patches. I wouldn't mind making a little utility ro fix automatically any map with broken EUDs.

Can someone post a list with the most important data variables that can be read by EUDs and *should* be made into proper trigger conditions/actions?



?????

Mar 31 2016, 1:29 pm Roy Post #6

An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death

Conditions:
  • General:
    • Latency
    • Game Speed
    • Force Name
    • Map Title
    • Location Coordinates
    • Game Is In Multiplayer Mode
    • Minimap Color State
  • Player:
    • Player Name
    • Player Selection
    • Player Supply
    • Player Vision Status
    • Player Upgrades
    • Player Technologies
    • Remaining Game Pauses
  • Unit:
    • Unit Attack Cooldown
    • Unit Coordinates
    • Unit Facing Direction
    • Unit Current Energy
    • Unit Max Energy
    • Unit Current HP
    • Unit Max HP
    • Unit Current Shields
    • Unit Max Shields
    • Unit Kill Count
    • Unit Order
    • Unit Status
    • Unit Target
    • Unit Speed
    • Unit Build Queue
    • Unit Color
  • Display Text:
    • Message Contains Text
  • Local Only:
    • Digital Volume
    • Music Volume
    • Screen Position Coordinates
    • Current Player Id
    • Key Press Detection

Actions:
  • General:
    • Latency
    • Game Speed
    • Force Name
    • Location Coordinates
    • Minimap Color State
  • Player:
    • Player Name
    • Player Selection
    • Player Supply
    • Player Upgrades
    • Player Technologies
    • Remaining Game Pauses
  • Unit:
    • Unit Attack Cooldown
    • Unit Facing Direction*
    • Unit Current Energy
    • Unit Max Energy
    • Unit Current HP
    • Unit Max HP
    • Unit Current Shields
    • Unit Max Shields
    • Unit Kill Count
    • Unit Order (non-move/attack/patrol)*
    • Unit Target
    • Unit Status*
    • Unit Speed
    • Unit Build Queue
    • Unit Color
  • Local Only:
    • Digital Volume
    • Music Volume
    • Screen Position Coordinates*

* These particular actions currently don't work as expected with EUDs.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Mar 31 2016, 1:36 pm by Roy.




Mar 31 2016, 7:59 pm Clokr_ Post #7



The general ones I'm pretty sure are a no-go for Blizzard. I could see why in some very special conditions they could be useful, but not in general. For example, the map name. Is that supposed to be to implement anti-steal triggers? And why do you want to check the force name when you can make the trigger run only for that force? What about the minimap color state?

Any local EUD wouldn't be likely implemented either, as they would have to modify the data SC sends over internet.



?????

Mar 31 2016, 8:24 pm Roy Post #8

An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death

Quote from Clokr_
The general ones I'm pretty sure are a no-go for Blizzard. I could see why in some very special conditions they could be useful, but not in general. For example, the map name. Is that supposed to be to implement anti-steal triggers? And why do you want to check the force name when you can make the trigger run only for that force? What about the minimap color state?
Location coordinates would be extremely useful, especially as an action; we could eliminate the need for grid systems and just rely on math.

Force names display on the victory screen. If players choose a faction at the beginning or even in the middle of the match, why not provide an option to actually have the faction name be correct on the end game screen?

Minimap color state would be useful for certain UMS style games where it would otherwise be revealing information.

Quote from Clokr_
Any local EUD wouldn't be likely implemented either, as they would have to modify the data SC sends over internet.
There are several existing actions that are local only, such as Center View and Display Text Message. Being able to use addition and subtraction on the current screen position would be amazing for many types of games.

It's less likely that Blizzard would add any of the Unit conditions/actions, because SC doesn't have a good way to select particular units, meaning this would have to be a significant implementation on their end. Considering UMS isn't even on Blizzard's radar, overhauling the game's engine for the sake of adding mapmaking features is a pipe dream.




Mar 31 2016, 8:50 pm Clokr_ Post #9



Quote from Roy
Location coordinates would be extremely useful, especially as an action; we could eliminate the need for grid systems and just rely on math.

I agree. In fact had them on my first post.

Quote from Roy
Force names display on the victory screen. If players choose a faction at the beginning or even in the middle of the match, why not provide an option to actually have the faction name be correct on the end game screen?

Minimap color state would be useful for certain UMS style games where it would otherwise be revealing information.

I find these two pretty accesory. You can warn the player about the minimap color state in a message. And how can a player choose a faction in the middle of a game?

Quote from Clokr_
Any local EUD wouldn't be likely implemented either, as they would have to modify the data SC sends over internet.
There are several existing actions that are local only, such as Center View and Display Text Message. Being able to use addition and subtraction on the current screen position would be amazing for many types of games.

It's less likely that Blizzard would add any of the Unit conditions/actions, because SC doesn't have a good way to select particular units, meaning this would have to be a significant implementation on their end. Considering UMS isn't even on Blizzard's radar, overhauling the game's engine for the sake of adding mapmaking features is a pipe dream.[/quote]

I agree about the screen position coordinates. I also know Blizzard won't probably modify the engine of the games, but at the same time I wonder why they have hired an artist. It might be just for making the relaunch campaign pretty, but I still hope they consider when they have finished the compatibility patches to start working on more interesting stuff. Although who knows, maybe their top priority is porting them to BNET2...



?????

Mar 31 2016, 9:38 pm Roy Post #10

An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death

Quote from Clokr_
You can warn the player about the minimap color state in a message.
That doesn't solve the issue. If you have players sharing the same color for a single unit (possible through the rescue unit behavior), you can still identify which player owns the unit by looking at the player color on the minimap. This limits a lot of deception-based game concepts. By forcing the minimap state to show all allies/enemies as a single color, it's no longer possible to identify the unit's true owner.

Quote from Clokr_
I find these two pretty accessory. And how can a player choose a faction in the middle of a game?
An RPG with a branching story would be the simplest example. If you get to decide between two factions in the middle of the game, it would be appropriate to rename the force to match the side you choose. Sure, it's a minor detail, but it's also trivial to implement.

Quote from Clokr_
I also know Blizzard won't probably modify the engine of the games, but at the same time I wonder why they have hired an artist. It might be just for making the relaunch campaign pretty, but I still hope they consider when they have finished the compatibility patches to start working on more interesting stuff. Although who knows, maybe their top priority is porting them to BNET2...
The job posting made no mention of hiring an artist. They've taken the posting down already, but this is what it said:

Compelling stories. Intense multiplayer. Endless replayability. Qualities that made StarCraft, Warcraft III, and Diablo II the titans of their day. Evolving operating systems, hardware, and online services have made them more difficult to be experienced by their loyal followers or reaching a new generation.

Were restoring them to glory, and we need your engineering talents, your passion, and your ability to get tough jobs done.

So if you like wearing many hats, know small teams are the most effective, and look forward to challenges that will create millions of new adventures for our players: we would love to hear from you.

RESPONSIBILITIES
  • Make gameplay first again on modern operating systems.
  • Create conditions for experiences that look as good as they play.
  • Own implementation and curation of features new and old.
  • Combat hacking to improve multiplayer.
  • Diagnose and fix all the things: crashes, deadlocks, overflows, heap corruptions, etc.

All of these descriptors are suggesting compatibility with modern operating systems and security patches. "Create conditions for experiences" is not saying "Recreate experiences": it's saying taking what's currently there and making it work better (on modern systems).

We've seen what's come out of this posting for Diablo II and Warcraft III. Warcraft's custom map scene was extremely successful and popular, but its patch addressed none of it, so I don't see why StarCraft, which has an even smaller UMS scene now, would receive better treatment. The only thing it suggests is the possibility of reducing mapmaking features by eliminating EUDs.

The only thing I see them doing that could be considered beneficial for the UMS ecosystem is increasing the P2P transfer rate when downloading maps. But you asked what EUDs would be useful to have if someone were to entertain the idea, so I gave a list.




Mar 31 2016, 9:54 pm Clokr_ Post #11



I agree with you, but I still think that the force name suggestion is minor. I have been away from the map making scene for 6+ years so I have no experience with EUDs and I barely remember some aspects of map making. I'm sorry if I question silly things.

About the second part you are wrong. Blizzard did hire an art director. You can see the job offer here linked under "CLASSIC GAMES". The job opportunity is closed but the text is still there. I copy here what it says:
Quote
Classic games is seeking a skilled artist to help revitalize StarCraft, Warcraft III, Diablo II, and our catalogue of other classics.

This is an art generalist position requiring hands on direction, management, and engine integration of a wide range of assets including characters, weapons, and environment props.

If your art background and leadership skills allow you to direct and collaborate with external art vendors, while coordinating with team leads to track assets and identify art needs: wed love to hear from you.

Responsibilities

Manage communications and provide feedback to artists, and help maintain a strong creative relationship between external and internal art teams.
Generate detailed documentation, video reference, and examples of art asset production, procedures, and engine requirements to support the external vendors.
Own the quality control over all incoming art assets, providing detailed feedback and approvals to the vendor in order to deliver quality assets to the development team.
Implement approved assets into the game engine, along with making any needed fixes to keep assets consistent and game ready.
Personally create high quality character models, weapons, and environment assets for a variety of different projects and art styles.
Work closely with the art director, art leads, production team, and outsource manager to determine outsourcing needs, pipelines, budgets, and costs for art assets.
Coordinate with the outsource manager to schedule and track incoming assets.
Identify and research possible vendors.
Travel may be necessary to help train and coach approved vendors.

Requirements

Experience in game art asset creation in a variety of software packages including Maya, 3ds Max, Zbrush, and Photoshop
Strong character, weapon, and environment modeling experience and skills a must
Clear and concise communications, leadership, and people skills
Must be highly organized, self-driven, customer focused, and a great team player
Understanding of the visual style of Blizzard games and a passion to push it to the next level
Have shipped AAA PC or console title as an environment, character, or technical artist

Pluses

Experience working with outsourcing teams
Experience in an art director or lead artist role
Fluency in a language other than English, including Chinese, German, Spanish, Italian, or Russian

Required Application Materials

Resume
Cover Letter which should include:
Why you are interested in working at Blizzard
What games you are currently playing
Portfolio, and / or reel demonstrating relevant artistic skills

**Only submittals with Cover Letters will be considered.


Blizzard Entertainment is an Equal Opportunity Employer. All qualified applicants will receive consideration for employment without regard to race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression, national origin, protected veteran status, or any other basis protected by applicable law, and will not be discriminated against on the basis of disability.

Also it makes sense their top priority is making the games compatible with modern hardware, and since there's only one team working on all their classic games they'd get on after another fixed. Will they continue patching them after this? I don't know. But there is hope.



?????

Mar 31 2016, 10:51 pm Roy Post #12

An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death

I hadn't seen that posting, but it sounds like an outsource manager. The phrase "and our catalogue of other classics" makes me think this is for non-technical art assets for showcasing their history, because I can't seriously see them bringing back "The Lost Vikings" in the same vein. Barring the first line you wouldn't even know it's talking about classic games, except maybe the mention of ZBrush.

HD re-releases are all the rage these days, though. Even in this case, there's no guarantee that mapmaking will be carried over. If it is, then it will probably be based on Galaxy Editor, which was based on World Editor; I don't see why Blizzard wouldn't just throw away the old SC mapmaking tools and pull in the successful event-based triggering system they've been using for years.




Apr 1 2016, 7:18 pm Clokr_ Post #13



"Catalogue of classics" seems to it is nothing more than a figure of speech refering to all the old games. They sentence
Quote
Implement approved assets into the game engine, along with making any needed fixes to keep assets consistent and game ready.
makes it clear they are at least considering adding/modifying graphics within the games. The fact they have also hired a sever engineer is what makes me suspect that all they want to do is merge the old bnet with the new one (they need an art manager to get the new bnet screens art done).

I know I'm being too hopeful, but still I think that making this list and posting in on the bnet forums is a good idea. Some Blizzard intern might check it out and think it's a pretty neat idea. Of course if they do add new map making features they would also do so for WCIII.

I'm not sure how an event-based system works, but that probably needs a lot more rewriting and retesting than adding EUD-like trigger actions/conditions which could be achieved by adding 2-3 lines in a switch statement, or making hypertriggers by default for which the modification of a constant suffices.



?????

Apr 1 2016, 7:39 pm Voyager7456 Post #14

Responsible for my own happiness? I can't even be responsible for my own breakfast

Quote from Clokr_
The fact they have also hired a sever engineer is what makes me suspect that all they want to do is merge the old bnet with the new one (they need an art manager to get the new bnet screens art done).

Now there's a horrifying thought.



all i am is a contrary canary
but i'm crazy for you
i watched you cradling a tissue box
sneezing and sniffling, you were still a fox


Modding Resources: The Necromodicon [WIP] | Mod Night
My Projects: SCFC | ARAI | Excision [WIP] | SCFC2 [BETA] | Robots vs. Humans | Leviathan Wakes [BETA]


Apr 1 2016, 8:44 pm Oh_Man Post #15

Find Me On Discord (Brood War UMS Community & Staredit Network)

Is there really no way to contact a dev directly? You have to go through support??




Apr 1 2016, 8:54 pm Voyager7456 Post #16

Responsible for my own happiness? I can't even be responsible for my own breakfast

Quote from Oh_Man
Is there really no way to contact a dev directly? You have to go through support??

I didn't become a dev so I could talk to customers.



all i am is a contrary canary
but i'm crazy for you
i watched you cradling a tissue box
sneezing and sniffling, you were still a fox


Modding Resources: The Necromodicon [WIP] | Mod Night
My Projects: SCFC | ARAI | Excision [WIP] | SCFC2 [BETA] | Robots vs. Humans | Leviathan Wakes [BETA]


Apr 1 2016, 8:55 pm Clokr_ Post #17



Quote from Oh_Man
Is there really no way to contact a dev directly? You have to go through support??

Not that I know of. You can either get through support or post it on Bnet forums where some Blizzard intern will probably take a peek at it but there's no guarantee they'll forward it to the dev team.



?????

Apr 1 2016, 10:50 pm Oh_Man Post #18

Find Me On Discord (Brood War UMS Community & Staredit Network)

Quote from Voyager7456
Quote from Oh_Man
Is there really no way to contact a dev directly? You have to go through support??

I didn't become a dev so I could talk to customers.
I don't mean talk, I mean to just read.

Or does the average dev really not give a fuck what consumers have to say about their product?




Apr 1 2016, 11:10 pm lil-Inferno Post #19

Just here for the pie

Quote from Oh_Man
Quote from Voyager7456
Quote from Oh_Man
Is there really no way to contact a dev directly? You have to go through support??

I didn't become a dev so I could talk to customers.
I don't mean talk, I mean to just read.

Or does the average dev really not give a fuck what consumers have to say about their product?
It'd rob them of time that could be spent developing, so tasks outside of crunching code are delegated to other wings of the company. I'm sure they're proud of their products, it's just not the best use of their time from the perspective of managers.




Apr 2 2016, 5:06 pm zsnakezz Post #20



[Start a new map]

[Default Melee Triggers]

[No triggers]

[Default Hyper Triggers] - Adds correct number of hyper trigger copies to all usable players.



I made the following maps; Hyperion 2, The Undead, The Undead Coop, Realm Rpg beta, and Overlords. Follow me on twitch at https://www.twitch.tv/zsnakezz

Options
  Back to forum
Please log in to reply to this topic or to report it.
Members in this topic: None.
[07:29 am]
Oh_Man -- Half life 3 fcking confirmed mates
[07:24 am]
NudeRaider -- takes like half a second for me. Got 5,8MB/s down
[01:20 am]
MTiger156 -- I got 3MB/s download... but it took a minute >_<
[10:26 pm]
Suicidal Insanity -- Its only 5MB
[10:13 pm]
MTiger156 -- Jeez, I can't even load it LOL my pathetic internet.
[09:13 pm]
Suicidal Insanity -- MTiger156
MTiger156 shouted: Not sure why it takes an ultra-high resolution image of a bird to get that point across, but ok
Ultra high? That is downscaled by a factor of 5 or so
[02:47 pm]
MTiger156 -- u u
[2019-11-21. : 8:01 am]
UEDCommander -- Suicidal Insanity
Suicidal Insanity shouted: http://photos.arlinghaus.org/Animals/Species/WesternJackdaw/2019.11.16-FSH_3770-QHD-%7BFA19D1D3-182C-4723-964D-C30A764A7D13%7D.jpg <- Its missing a speech bubble about SCR bad blizzard bad modding good 1.16 good
u
[2019-11-21. : 2:16 am]
Ultraviolet -- Suicidal Insanity
Suicidal Insanity shouted: http://photos.arlinghaus.org/Animals/Species/WesternJackdaw/2019.11.16-FSH_3770-QHD-%7BFA19D1D3-182C-4723-964D-C30A764A7D13%7D.jpg <- Its missing a speech bubble about SCR bad blizzard bad modding good 1.16 good
http://www.staredit.net/uploads/avatars/4811.png?312523688 pretty solid ;)
Please log in to shout.


Members Online: Roy, kamis38702, yqotyd, jewelldillard, dolly96