Staredit Network > Forums > Null > Topic: Kame Mafia: Kame Classic Edition
Kame Mafia: Kame Classic Edition
Jan 11 2013, 6:28 pm
By: Fire_Kame
Pages: < 1 2 3 4 515 >
 
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Jan 12 2013, 1:50 pm InsolubleFluff Post #41



Quote from Roy
Quote from InsolubleFluff
- Mafia get individual hits
That's not gonna happen; the whole point of Kame's game is to introduce this classic mechanic.

I picked 24 hour days and nights. Since there are going to likely be many more cycles for this game than a typical one, it will take ages for any slower speed to complete.

Yeah, because introducing new mechanics to this forum has gone down well...



None.

Jan 12 2013, 1:59 pm Roy Post #42

An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death

Quote from InsolubleFluff
Yeah, because introducing new mechanics to this forum has gone down well...
They have, actually. I know you've only played one game here, but nothing's stopping you from looking at previous games. Here are a few games to look at:

http://www.staredit.net/topic/15346/
http://www.staredit.net/topic/14473/
http://www.staredit.net/topic/12577/

Removing a rule that prevented cheap strategies last game isn't introducing a new mechanic, by the way. I assume that's what you meant with your sarcasm, but you can correct me if you meant something else.




Jan 12 2013, 5:12 pm Fire_Kame Post #43

wth is starcraft

Mechanics, regardless of new or old have never gone well. :bleh:

Az aren't you the pot calling the kettle black? You interfere with games you're not playing all the time. :awesome: I will not allow posts from non-players if players believe this will become an issue.

I am not giving the mafia three hits a night and the town the chance only to save two of them. Its a guaranteed hit for the mafia at the very least every night. Part of the fun of mafia is to have a no-death night.

It sounds like I can better weight the sides by:
1) Only have a detective at 15+ players (less then 15 players for a mafia game doesn't sound fun anyways)
2) Instead of the detective getting "Mafia" or "Not Mafia" they receive information on whether or not that person was active the night they visit them (I believe much like Roy's clues were).
3) Nurse's Cannot Save themselves.
4) Perhaps 1 Nurse would be better than two?
5) Perhaps I should change it back to no role reveal?


Roy I'll PM you.

EDIT: It actually appears 90% of these problems have popped up because I changed roles to be revealed on death...but as Nude said that isn't really classic mafia.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jan 12 2013, 5:18 pm by Fire_Kame.




Jan 12 2013, 5:34 pm Azrael Post #44



Quote from Fire_Kame
Az aren't you the pot calling the kettle black? You interfere with games you're not playing all the time. :awesome: I will not allow posts from non-players if players believe this will become an issue.

No I don't :P I've never even posted in a Mafia thread while it was running, even when it's allowed, unless I was playing.

Quote from Fire_Kame
2) Instead of the detective getting "Mafia" or "Not Mafia" they receive information on whether or not that person was active the night they visit them (I believe much like Roy's clues were).
5) Perhaps I should change it back to no role reveal?

These two by themselves would definitely push the balance back the other way significantly. You could leave the ratios and everything else the way they are without too much worry. Using no role reveal gives the Mafia a lot of strategically viable options to overturn a bad situation.

If you wanted to leave the Detective's ability the same (alignment confirmation), you could instead make the no role reveal only apply to the Town: The Mafia receive a PM when someone dies informing them of the person's role. That'd definitely even the playing field, giving both sides a powerful method of acquiring information.

If you wanted to keep the role reveal, then Roy's summarized some of the best ways to shift balance back, the most important of which is changing the ratio of Mafia to Town.




Jan 12 2013, 6:07 pm Generalpie Post #45

Staredit Puckwork

On. In.



None.

Jan 12 2013, 6:15 pm LoTu)S Post #46



I'm in if I don't get the wrong role PM again :wob: :wob:



None.

Jan 12 2013, 7:21 pm Fire_Kame Post #47

wth is starcraft

I added Pie and Lotus.

I am currently in conversation with Roy about changing/balancing the rules while keeping to the sort of model I want to use. When we decide something I'll be sure to let you all know in the thread (hopefully we will soon - I just don't want you to think I'm ignoring the valid concerns being posted).

On top of this, part of the activity check will ask you to verify that you read the modified rules and that you want to still play.

I would really like to reach 15 players - I don't think I'll be able to justify the detective role without 15 players - before sending out the first activity check.




Jan 12 2013, 9:29 pm OlimarandLouie Post #48



Sure I'll join.



None.

Jan 13 2013, 12:48 am lil-Inferno Post #49

Just here for the pie

Almost every game recently has added new mechanics and they've (poison's game aside) worked out fine.




Jan 13 2013, 10:19 am Daddywhoo Post #50



In



None.

Jan 13 2013, 5:41 pm Fire_Kame Post #51

wth is starcraft

I added OlimerandLouie and Daddywhoo.

I have also made these revisions:

4 mafia for 15 players
1 nurse
1 detective for 15 players.

-The nurse cannot save himself
-The detective will still receive "mafia" or "not mafia"
-No Role Reveal on death.




Jan 13 2013, 6:12 pm Azrael Post #52



Seems alright, except with no role reveal, I'd say your original number of 3 Mafia for 15 players was more ideal. The Detective won't be able to prove his results, so he'll always be at risk of lynching. Additionally, since the Nurse can't protect themselves, the Detective can never be perfectly safe; even if the Nurse knows they will be hit, it is impossible to prevent it, and then impossible for the Detective to be protected.

The original ratio would result in 5 full cycles if the Mafia play a perfect game, and 3 full cycles if the Town plays a perfect game; however, it's statistically improbable for Town to manage a perfect game with no role reveal, and 5 cycles is closer to how long the game will last if Town plays dominantly.

I'd say that right now the balance, while much better, slants somewhat in favor of Mafia.




Jan 13 2013, 6:16 pm Fire_Kame Post #53

wth is starcraft

How does it slant more in favor of mafia than giving the mafia three hits a night did?




Jan 13 2013, 6:21 pm Azrael Post #54



That was when you had more Nurses and role reveal. No role reveal is a huge benefit for Mafia, it tips the scales significantly back in their favor.




Jan 13 2013, 9:29 pm Doodan Post #55



Sign me up!



None.

Jan 13 2013, 11:16 pm DT_Battlekruser Post #56



With regard to the balance, 11:4 seems reasonable although if you want more fun you could consider adding 2 or 3 masons to the town (masons know who each other are but no other special information). When I play mafia IRL we usually have 9-12 players and 3 or 4 mafia, but I think it is a little easier for the town IRL to read people and figure the position out since the town is usually lynching mafia at least 50% of the time.

As a note to the off-topic flame war going on here: I understand if people are going to flamebait and yell at other people during a game of mafia. That is normal, and part of the game. But the previous game is over and you guys should chill the fuck out. Whatever did and didn't happen, it's possible to discuss the relevant matter of balance in this game without ending up in a massive flame war. I deleted a bunch of posts accordingly.




None.

Jan 14 2013, 2:50 am Azrael Post #57



Quote from DT_Battlekruser
With regard to the balance, 11:4 seems reasonable

With no role reveal? With this ratio, if Town and Mafia play equally well, Mafia will win every time.

I guess the question is, will the Town and Mafia play equally well? It's not really possible to know that ahead of time, so it shouldn't be balanced on the assumption that they won't. A Mafia could expose themselves on the very first day and get lynched, changing the ratio from 3:12 to 2:11, which would then look bad for Mafia; the Detective could also get hit on the first night and die, skewing things significantly in favor of Mafia. These outcomes are statistically unlikely though, and both outcomes can be prevented by their team if they play well enough.

If you want numbers for the 4:11 ratio, Mafia will win in 3 days if they play a perfect game, while Town can't win in under 4, and due to no reveal they aren't likely to win in under 6 even playing dominantly. That gives Mafia a significant advantage.

With the original 3:12 ratio, the average perfect win time for both sides is 5 days.

Quote from DT_Battlekruser
if you want more fun you could consider adding 2 or 3 masons to the town (masons know who each other are but no other special information).

This is an interesting alternative to changing the ratio, although I think it'd need some adjustment to work properly here. I don't know if Moose ever used this in any of his games, but I can't imagine it turning out well. With the way it's stated, they'd just claim immediately, and you either end up with a fast and easy hub, or you'd have the Mafia counterclaim and everyone involved getting lynched.

I'm sure it could be made to work though, one way being that it only goes one way: a Mason is told the alignment of one other Townie, not the other Masons. Then it wouldn't be possible for the Town to definitively trust any single Mason since they can't confirm one another.

Another variation would be to give Masons a night visit, and when they visit someone, they get a result of "Mason" or "not Mason" for the other person.

Quote from DT_Battlekruser
I think it is a little easier for the town IRL to read people and figure the position out

That's interesting, it seems to differ based on the person. Some people on here claim they are good at Mafia in real life, but then don't play that well here. Alternatively, I know there are people who play better online as opposed to a real life setting.

In the games I've played in real life, I did well enough, but I find Mafia in this setting to be more enjoyable; it's more skill-based and competitive, mainly due to the long periods of time which transpire between cycles. When you say or do something which is suspicious, it doesn't merely get lost when whoever's yelling loudest in the room distracts you. It's preserved there, forever, waiting for someone to notice it. The same goes for voting patterns and other behaviors which you have enough time here to actually analyze.

That's been my personal experience, at least. I guess it's different for everyone though :P




Jan 14 2013, 9:46 pm omginbd Post #58



I'd love to play!



None.

Jan 15 2013, 12:00 am Raitaki Post #59



Hmmm...Yeah, I think a 3-man mafia team would be about right for this game. With only 3 mafia they'll be screwed up pretty badly by even one slip-up though, so I'd also suggest a 4-man mafia team with 1 non-killing, non-blocking member, something like a Godfather with Elder-like powers to save daily extra votes for later, to balance out without giving mafia too much killing power.



None.

Jan 15 2013, 12:05 am Roy Post #60

An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death

Quote from Raitaki
Hmmm...Yeah, I think a 3-man mafia team would be about right for this game. With only 3 mafia they'll be screwed up pretty badly by even one slip-up though, so I'd also suggest a 4-man mafia team with 1 non-killing, non-blocking member, something like a Godfather with Elder-like powers to save daily extra votes for later, to balance out without giving mafia too much killing power.
Technically, all the mafia are non-killing and non-blocking except one. I think you may have misread the original post.




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