"Hardcore"/"Veteran" SC2 players dislike the new custom map system. Newer players don't have a problem. There are a lot more new players than veterans.

I think Blizzard doesn't have much reason to change their custom map system. Though I would like a feature where you can see maps/variants being "hosted now". Like today, my friend and I wanted to play 2v2 Nexus Wars, but the only way people join is if you set it to 4v4.

I'll probably buy HoTS if I have time to play it and it has new units for multiplayer.

I think people exaggerate the difficulty of the editor. Sure, it's not idiot friendly, but is that really a bad thing? The "real" map-makers will take the time to learn it while the ones who release useless, boring, duplicated crap probably wont.

Personally, I'm probably going to be buying it either way. As much as I'd love the custom map system to change, I still enjoy making maps.

A lot of people will leave the melee scene once they get tired of it. Those that stay will stay for the custom scene probably, in WC3s case and Brood War in the US most people only played for the custom scene 5 years after release. This may not be true for SC2 but eventually the melee will die and all that will be left is the custom scene.

Yes the editor is bugged and difficult to use. That's a problem but the bigger problem is that the popularity system is broken. Once melee begins to falter (and it will, do you actually play it?) the only thing keeping the game going will be the customs. Frankly I don't give a shit if there's an organized boycott or not but the less people that buy HotS the better. The game won't be a success with the mod community if blizzard doesn't get its shit together and eventually someone else is going to figure out that this custom game system works extremely well and they're going to beat blizzard at its own game.

The issue with that sentiment, though, is that the SC2 map/mod community is thriving. People are complaining about the popularity system, sure, but for the most part people are like Artanis in that they'll overlook it because they still like making maps. The people at SC2Mapster have been complaining about the pop system for a while, but at the same time they're still making their maps and mods despite the flawed system.

SC2's custom scene probably wont last as long as SC1's if the system doesn't change, but in the meantime HotS will still sell well and probably so will the Protoss counterpart. It likely wont be until after the last expansion is released that we'll see a significant change because they have nothing to worry about before then. If they make the change sooner, then good for them for listening to the community. If they don't, it wont make a difference to them financially.

Well that's my point then, I don't think we'll see them change the popularity system until there's either a serious change in the number of copies sold from WoL or if there's a ridiculous clamoring from the community - like there was for chat channels. Ultimately it may take a little bit of both, but I can tell you first hand I've seen many map makers and modders outright quit because of the lack of support (from the player base, community, or blizzard itself). So yeah the custom scene will basically fail if they keep the popularity system. But by then they'll already have all of our money so they won't care, is what you're saying? If so, then I'd say you're probably right.

I'm basically saying that they wont need to change it until after WoL is out because it wont impact sales. I agree that the custom map community will probably be the major factor that keeps SC2 going for years after WoL's release, and that's when they'll have to make changes. But before then, I don't think they'll have to pay attention to the complaints of map makers as I don't see the custom community as the major demographic for the expansions. I imagine they look at a community like SC2Mapster and see that people are constantly working on new projects regardless of the complaints, and that makes it slightly easier to ignore.

I'd also say the difference between the chat channels and this is that they were planning on adding chat channels anyway but didn't get to by release so it was an added feature included in a patch. The popularity system is a system they wanted and implemented, and now we want them to scrap it and start over. It would be more related to how we want the chat channels changed to be more like those in SC and WC3, and Blizzard's lack of cooperation on that front.

Unless my memory is failing me, I think the only things the map community has rallied for and received is more map space for uploads and the search feature.

@devlin maybe it's just me but the mapping scene seems to have died off quite a bit since release. Sixen said a couple months back that mapster was getting half the unique hits it got during beta. Iskatu's told me that many of the good mappers have moved on. And in general I'm not seeing as much action as before.

I don't completely blame the popularity system for that, though. Either way my point remains the same: we are not their main source of sales, so appeasing us wont make a huge difference.

No but people who only play custom games are a source of sales. If the map community boycotts the game then the people that play custom maps will boycott the game as well, or at least further installments (the protoss expansion).

I can confirm anecdotally what jack said is true. I think the popularity system is a huge factor, obviously the unfriendliness of the editor would be a second aspect - but if there's enough support by the playerbase (via a currently hosted system) then that would mitigate the problem. It's simply impossible to get a community around a map or genre of maps as it is these days. Unless you're at the top of the popularity and still makes it impossible for genres to have a community (diplomacy for example, or historical battle maps).

Edit: Also I don't remember the map community rallying for more map space. If anything they've been bitching about the popularity system and that's it. I think the extra map space was an attempt on blizzard's part to inject some life into the map community since it wasn't as vibrant as they expected it to be (I wonder why).

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 14 2011, 2:16 pm by Veta.

Yeah, people will get bored of melee in SC2 just like they did in SC1!!

...

Oh wait, there are STILL sc1 leagues. 13 years after SC1's release.

They rallied for it on Blizzard's Custom Map forum.

And how many SC1 teams are there? How much are the top prizes at these contests? How many viewers do they have? How many are non-korean (players and tournaments)?

I've said it once and I'm saying it again, fuck yeah I'm buying Heart of the Swarm. Blizzard kick ass and anyone who disagrees with that is just deluded and craving 1996 like some nostalgic crack-fiend remembering where his stash is.

I believe SC1 games are still televised, and the last major tournament was mid-June, although, yes, the vast majority of hardcore SC1 players are the natives.

If one person enjoys my map, that's enough for me to feel it was worth making it. The great thing about this attitude is that it's almost always worth it to enter a mapping contest.

1. Tons.

2. Comparable to SC2, slightly less.

3. Far more than SC2, SC2 isn't even televised yet in Korea.

4. Who cares? Foreigners already suck at SC2 and it's only been a year. The only reason Koreans care about foreign events is because it's free money that sponsors keep putting up.


I hope it becomes profitable, I really do. But the only way it'll happen is if the western players start stepping up. If we keep offering ridiculous prizes for American tournaments and no foreigners even place, who's going to watch it? The Koreans will come over in greater and greater numbers until the top 8 looks like this:

By in large the US East and West servers were dominated by custom games relative to melee games 5 years after release. That's what I'm going off of, I'm not saying just get rid of melee. I'm suggesting you pander to an audience you know will be a big portion of your player base in the future. In my case I played mostly custom games before I ever tried the actual melee. I liked it but I didn't stick with it for more than a few months and went back to customs.

Korea is a better/bigger market than the U.S. was ever or ever will be. Blizz makes money on melee.

I forget the exact source but it was an article by Blizzard explaining their focus on E-Sports and what the Korean market meant to them. The long and short of it was; that Korea wouldn't adopt SC2 as a fully fledged E-Sport until after all three instalments have been released. Which makes absolutely perfect sense in my opinion. Think how much Lurkers / Medics / Dark Templar's changed Starcraft 1.

I'm sure after the 2nd expansion we will have a great multiplayer.
But I've the impression that the 2nd expansion will be delayed or contains only very few multiplayer changes because it will be even harder to make good changes to the evolving hots.
I'm thinking about changing some spells that aren't very useful in high level play like seeker missile.

I'm still disappointed with WoL, why would I buy HotS?

Besides, I'm pretty much done with Blizzard.

Diablo 3? I have the Torchlight series, with developers who care about more than pretty colors, especially the color green and the paper that color is used on in the US.

Titan? Firefall will be out before it, which has the most promise of any MMO/Shooter in the past 10 years.

WoL isn't even finished being balanced yet and they're gonna be releasing HotS. There's a whole lot of new players on SC2 that don't even know what DT means btw