Staredit Network > Forums > Lite Discussion > Topic: StarCraft Map Cracker 2.86!
StarCraft Map Cracker 2.86!
Nov 29 2012, 4:05 am
By: Zhuinden
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Dec 1 2012, 1:25 am Azrael Post #101



Nude, those things are all either map theft, cheating, or map rigging.

Things like "giving yourself 1000 lives" is one of the many reasons mapmakers choose to use protection.

No one is suggesting any of those things be allowed.




Dec 1 2012, 1:29 am DevliN Post #102

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Quote from payne
- Faster fixes/adds because the community doesn't need to wait for the mapper;
I seem to recall having a debate with you years ago about this when Blizzard supported map locking in SC2 (though I think specifically it was about me keeping Invasion locked, I think). Though faster fixes and new changes could be made, those fixes and changes could be suggested to the mapmaker and leave it up to the mapmaker to decide how to proceed as in the end the map still belongs to (used in a general sense) the mapmaker. If you unprotect my map and add your own changes to a map that I make and I disagree with those changes, I can't do anything about it other than get pissed off and claim you stole my map, leaving me shit out of luck in your ideal world. :P



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

Dec 1 2012, 1:33 am payne Post #103

:payne:

Az, you asked for benefits of unprotectors. I provided. And Nude actually provided a better list.
If map theft results into a greater good to the community, so be it.

Hypothetical situation: someone imagines a super cool game concept, completely revolutionary and awesome. He develops it a bit, releases an Alpha version. People love it and want more.
But one day during the making process, that person decides to ruin the concept and purposely make the map a piece of shit for whatever reason. What do? Let his idea fall into oblivion because of his pretended rights over his creation? I'd raise my finger, yell "Up yours!", and make something awesome out of his concept. And feel no remorse about it. Period.
Now I'm not sure if I have just ranted for no reason, but whatever. :awesome:



None.

Dec 1 2012, 1:35 am DevliN Post #104

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Quote from payne
Hypothetical situation: someone imagines a super cool game concept, completely revolutionary and awesome. He develops it a bit, releases an Alpha version. People love it and want more.
But one day during the making process, that person decides to ruin the concept and purposely make the map a piece of shit for whatever reason. What do? Let his idea fall into oblivion because of his pretended rights over his creation? I'd raise my finger, yell "Up yours!", and make something awesome out of his ideas. And feel no remorse about it. Period.
Thank you for describing the history of DotA. :awesome:

I do think that's a good point in theory, however I'd respect the idiot who came up with the idea and create a new idea from scratch that is similar but not as awful as his. Why someone would come up with something amazing and then make it awful on purpose, I have no idea.



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

Dec 1 2012, 1:40 am NudeRaider Post #105

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

Quote from Azrael
Nude, those things are all either map theft, cheating, or map rigging.

Things like "giving yourself 1000 lives" is one of the many reasons mapmakers choose to use protection.

No one is suggesting any of those things be allowed.
And again, I say it isn't, you say it is and that is all you say. Why are you never building a case? Are you seriously expecting to convince people by just saying "no"?
You're right, my examples CAN fall into the category of map theft, under certain circumstances. But I'll present you examples when this isn't the case and everyone would be happy when the map got unprotected.
Don't always assume you're everyone. And your opinion always applies anywhere to anyone. You wanted benefits I'm giving you examples.

- improve maps >> There's a time where people just don't care about their map anymore becasue they leave bnet or w/e and wouldn't care or would even be proud if their maps would still be improved on and played
- spark interest >> If they keep the modifed versions private they learn mapping and get ideas for their own maps
- fix bugged maps >> People may not even know that the new patch broke their map and are thankful when someone releases a fix with proper credits
- checking map for soltutions >> I'd argue only sadistic mapmakers would want people prevent from checking triggers when they're stuck
- infinite lives bound >> The modified version can be used privately without removing the challenge for everyone

So you see there are in fact a bunch of reasons why map unprotection can be beneficial.




Dec 1 2012, 1:41 am Azrael Post #106



Quote from payne
Az, you asked for benefits of unprotectors.

No, I asked for benefits of hosting unprotectors here.

The list provided was irrelevant for the reasons already stated: You're talking about map theft, map rigging, cheating, and modifying maps in general. That wouldn't be allowed, thus it isn't a benefit.

The ideal concession, as NudeRaider mentioned earlier in the thread but was largely ignored (even by me), would be hosting a program that can view a map but not modify it (like Trigger Viewer).

Anything beyond that should be found independent of this site.




Dec 1 2012, 1:44 am NudeRaider Post #107

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

Quote from Azrael
No, I asked for benefits of hosting unprotectors here.
... The benefit of hosting it on SEN would be that people had better access to the tools when they were aiming for any of the mentioned benefits of unprotecting a map.
Why do you I have to spell that out for you?




Dec 1 2012, 1:47 am Azrael Post #108



But those things aren't benefits because they wouldn't be allowed anyways :facepalm: This isn't complicated.




Dec 1 2012, 1:50 am NudeRaider Post #109

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

Quote
I can't do anything about it other than get pissed off and claim you stole my map, leaving me shit out of luck in your ideal world. :P
I've tried to explain that in previous posts. You (and SEN) can't do anything against the theft itself, but reputation goes a long way to prevent public perceiving your map as his. This can't be proven, but observed.

Quote
But those things aren't benefits because they wouldn't be allowed anyways :facepalm: This isn't complicated.
The cases are both moral and there exists no law or other regulation that disallow them.




Dec 1 2012, 2:09 am DevliN Post #110

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Quote from NudeRaider
Quote
I can't do anything about it other than get pissed off and claim you stole my map, leaving me shit out of luck in your ideal world. :P
I've tried to explain that in previous posts. You (and SEN) can't do anything against the theft itself, but reputation goes a long way to prevent public perceiving your map as his. This can't be proven, but observed.
Maybe I'm too cynical, but we (SEN) are insignificant when it comes to BNet now*. Let's say I make a map and try to spread it, and someone steals it and hosts it a ton to spread that stolen version instead. I can complain on SEN and have the community support my frustration, but as long as the stolen version is spread better than my legitimate version, it doesn't matter how many people here believe me compared to the hundreds (lol) playing the stolen version.

*Note: I say "insignificant...now" because in the past I believed this reasoning to work. The community was big enough and had enough influence in the mapmaking world that a tarnished reputation here could actually follow you elsewhere. When it came to mapmaking, that is. We also had enough members spreading the good versions that the bad/stolen ones were drowned out. We don't really have that anymore, unfortunately.

I don't know why this hasn't been mentioned before, but even as dead as SC1 mapmaking appears to be, we've dealt with mapstealing in the past year even. One member was banned for stealing another person's maps, but still continues to play SC on the stolen maps regardless. Our influence does nothing there.

There was also the "Poker Defense Nova" debacle. Topblaireau made his own version of Poker Defense (with the permission of people who made versions prior) and eventually gave up on it and quit SEN entirely because DankBudSmoker wanted to make his own changes to it and modified/spread his own version. In this case we lost a member who was actively trying to work on SC1 maps because someone stole his map and we couldn't really do anything about it.



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

Dec 1 2012, 2:13 am payne Post #111

:payne:

Quote from DevliN
Quote from payne
- Faster fixes/adds because the community doesn't need to wait for the mapper;
I seem to recall having a debate with you years ago about this when Blizzard supported map locking in SC2 (though I think specifically it was about me keeping Invasion locked, I think). Though faster fixes and new changes could be made, those fixes and changes could be suggested to the mapmaker and leave it up to the mapmaker to decide how to proceed as in the end the map still belongs to (used in a general sense) the mapmaker. If you unprotect my map and add your own changes to a map that I make and I disagree with those changes, I can't do anything about it other than get pissed off and claim you stole my map, leaving me shit out of luck in your ideal world. :P
That was a debate through PM if I remember properly. I actually made a reference to it in one of my posts in this thread (wasn't sure if you'd catch it). The conclusion of our discussion was that if you felt like it was a piece of art to you, I felt like I had no right over it. But I would now argue that I actually do have the right to edit it.
The thing is, "in my ideal world", you shouldn't feel like I stole your map because the map is not actually yours. I am creating a different version by reusing what you have already done while you still get to work on your own version, so where's the problem? It's an optimization that prevents me from having to waste time reproducing what you have done to apply the changes I feel should be made.
This reflection changes when it comes down to earning money, but it's really just because we live in a capitalist world. I justify making money out of abusing of a false right only because one must unfortunately earn his living that way. But this is a pretty simplified image of the whole problem, which is obviously way more complex.

Quote from DevliN
Quote from payne
Hypothetical situation: someone imagines a super cool game concept, completely revolutionary and awesome. He develops it a bit, releases an Alpha version. People love it and want more.
But one day during the making process, that person decides to ruin the concept and purposely make the map a piece of shit for whatever reason. What do? Let his idea fall into oblivion because of his pretended rights over his creation? I'd raise my finger, yell "Up yours!", and make something awesome out of his ideas. And feel no remorse about it. Period.
Thank you for describing the history of DotA. :awesome:

I do think that's a good point in theory, however I'd respect the idiot who came up with the idea and create a new idea from scratch that is similar but not as awful as his. Why someone would come up with something amazing and then make it awful on purpose, I have no idea.
Hypothesis. :P
Maybe the person just decided to not finish the concept, and prevent others from using it because he's an asshole who wants to abuse his supposed right to intellectual property.



None.

Dec 1 2012, 2:14 am NudeRaider Post #112

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

Quote from DevliN
There was also the "Poker Defense Nova" debacle. Topblaireau made his own version of Poker Defense (with the permission of people who made versions prior) and eventually gave up on it and quit SEN entirely because DankBudSmoker wanted to make his own changes to it and modified/spread his own version. In this case we lost a member who was actively trying to work on SC1 maps because someone stole his map and we couldn't really do anything about it.
The conclusion?




Dec 1 2012, 2:19 am DevliN Post #113

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Quote from NudeRaider
Quote from DevliN
There was also the "Poker Defense Nova" debacle. Topblaireau made his own version of Poker Defense (with the permission of people who made versions prior) and eventually gave up on it and quit SEN entirely because DankBudSmoker wanted to make his own changes to it and modified/spread his own version. In this case we lost a member who was actively trying to work on SC1 maps because someone stole his map and we couldn't really do anything about it.
The conclusion?
The conclusion is that we lost a member who wanted to make maps because he got pissed off that someone stole his map, we as a community can't do anything to prevent that from happening, and so far I've only really seen unprotectors used to steal/modify maps and not to learn anything anymore. :/ We're all speaking hypothetically about how unprotectors could be used for educational purposes, but is that really even true anymore? As has been mentioned to death before, everyone here who has made a map on SC1 knows how to do every trick in the book. If they don't they can ask on the forums or read the vast number of tutorials and guides we have. Anyone new looking to get into mapmaking could be curious about how a map works, but I just can't imagine that happens often.



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

Dec 1 2012, 2:19 am payne Post #114

:payne:

Quote from NudeRaider
Quote from DevliN
There was also the "Poker Defense Nova" debacle. Topblaireau made his own version of Poker Defense (with the permission of people who made versions prior) and eventually gave up on it and quit SEN entirely because DankBudSmoker wanted to make his own changes to it and modified/spread his own version. In this case we lost a member who was actively trying to work on SC1 maps because someone stole his map and we couldn't really do anything about it.
The conclusion?
That person rage quitted for a pretty stupid* pretty illegitimate reason (imo), too bad so sad.
*Edited because I was being a bit harsh unnecessarily.

Quote from DevliN
and so far I've only really seen unprotectors used to steal/modify maps and not to learn anything anymore. :/
As I mentioned earlier, there is no point in making the unprotector available if the reason we do it for is purely "educational". The Trigger Viewer is all one needs for that.
I personally advocate unprotectors precisely because they let one modify a map.



None.

Dec 1 2012, 2:24 am DevliN Post #115

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Quote from payne
Quote from DevliN
and so far I've only really seen unprotectors used to steal/modify maps and not to learn anything anymore. :/
As I mentioned earlier, there is no point in making the unprotector available if the reason we do it for is purely "educational". The Trigger Viewer is all one needs for that.
I personally advocate unprotectors precisely because they let one modify a map.
Right, I'm the first person to mention Trigger Viewer in here and mentioned it multiple times. We can agree on something! Yay! :P

So really at this point the debate with you is whether or not it is acceptable to modify a map regardless of how the map's creator feels, right? In my hypothetical scenario from earlier, if you modified a map I made and I got upset about it, would you care?



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

Dec 1 2012, 2:49 am Roy Post #116

An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death

I'll admit having skimmed a lot of the last couple pages; good points were made from both sides, and then things started getting ridiculous. I'm not particularly partial to either side, as I have reasons for both of them.

Protection was a solution to the problem of map stealers. Unprotection is a solution to the problem of protection. (Is protection a problem? If you do not believe so, you're very likely against most cases of unprotection.)

Here are my own personal Pros/Cons for unprotectors:

PROS:
1) Availability
If you're like me, you have at least one unprotector sitting with the rest of your mapping utilities. Unlike all of my other utilities (which I get from Sen), I have to search and acquire an unprotector on the webby-web. The convenience factor of making Sen a one-stop-shop is apparent when you're setting up your mapping rig on a new computer.

2) Personal Map Recovery
I've had the misfortune of losing the original unprotected versions of my map, and I'm sure many of you can say the same. With an unprotector, I can regain access to my maps if I ever need to update it. This is among the legitimate uses of unprotectors, and it can be argued that we shouldn't restrict something that has legitimate uses only because it can be misused as well.

3) Map Corruption Reversal
Some of you may be unaware, but a lot of corrupted maps can in fact be repaired using an unprotector. I've fixed a number of issues (including storage leaks, random crashes, string limit/recycling craziness, and unreadable maps, to name a few) by simply running the file through an unprotector. (This is something I like to do when a friend gives me their project that has corrupted in some way). Because of their nature, unprotectors rebuild broken areas of maps; a program that was built to uncorrupt maps would function the same way as an unprotector, and that's certainly a tool that (on the surface) our community would not want to exile.

4) Educational Purposes
This is probably the weakest of the supporting arguments for a number of reasons, but there is some merit to it. At one point, I protected maps with GUEdit, which if you don't already know, is one of the weakest forms of protection out there. Why did I do this? Because there was still heavy concern of maps being stolen, but the people that steal maps are often times not very reputable mapmakers, and a simple failure to open in an editor would deter that particular group from editing the map. Those that have the tools of the trade are likely experienced in mapmaking, and generally speaking, veteran mapmakers are less interested in stealing the work of others, as they're capable of creating great content on their own. This was my theory, at least, and it definitely seemed to be accurate from my personal experiences. This, coupled with the previously mentioned ability to view maps without being able to edit them, makes it a weak point to allow unprotectors, but it is a point I'll acknowledge nonetheless.

CONS:
1) Map Stealing
The big one; this is the reason we have the rule in place. Protection was made to prevent people from stealing the map. Unprotection was made to undo protection. So, even if their intentions were pure, unprotectors are the embodiment of allowing map stealing to continue. We are a community that abhors the stealing of maps, and so it is only natural that we would not distribute programs that are designed to negate protectors (which are efforts to prevent map stealing).

2) Educational Purposes
I'm actually listing this as a con as well. Almost all the basics I learned from mapmaking I learned on my own. If I saw a system in a map, I would challenge myself to recreate it. If it was truly beyond my current capacity to learn, my answer was not to unprotect the map and scan through the author's work. It was to come to the community, reading tutorials and asking questions. Never have I looked at the solution to a problem and learned more than when I go through and attempt to solve it myself.

3) Respecting The Author
Let's be honest here: unprotecting somebody else's work without permission is disrespectful to some degree. In some cases (like I mentioned earlier about myself), the author is fine with it, depending on the reasons for unprotecting the map. But I cannot tell you how many people come to me asking what the most powerful protector is (see the next point). They really do not want others to open their map, and to come to Sen and see that we distribute tools that do exactly what they don't want to happen, it discourages them from wanting to contribute to our community. We are a community of mappers, and we should respect what our members want. (If you're going to argue that members want unprotectors, my answer is that unprotectors do not really contribute to the community, whereas members and their works do; in this case, even if the opposition to unprotectors were in the minority, their reasoning is more objective for the betterment of the community.)

4) Protection Competition
Count the number of threads asking for the best protector. Even with no unprotectors allowed on the site, some mapmakers are very concerned that their maps will be unprotected, and they're looking to beat any unprotector on the market. Now look at the answers in those threads. Many of our members instead encourage compression over protection, as there is a direct benefit to using compression and ultimately any "stronger" protection today will be just as weak in the future. The inquirers were well aware of the major unprotectors at the time, and were desperate to use something that would best all of the unprotectors they knew about. You may remember some Korean protectors floating around (Shadow Protector, which was ported to Special Protector) which worked for a while to defeat the versions of the major unprotectors at the time. Some of these protectors were actually breaking maps (most notably making imported sounds no longer work), so broken maps were being distributed in the name of protection, only to have that protection become useless by the updating of an unprotector. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss.

5) Unprotection Competition
I can guarantee that throughout history of protectors, there has been made a specific protector to unprotect it. If you recall the early stages of OSMap, a protector came around as a response that included data that would cause OSMap to crash. Great, except then came along Unused Unprotector, which defeated that protector quite easily. There is always a quick response for unprotectors to beat protectors (you'd be surprised how many protectors and unprotectors actually exist; it's just that some are so specialized that they are irrelevant for modern use), just like how there was a quick response from hacks when Blizzard would issue a new patch. The authors of unprotectors only stay relevant if their product is still useful, and the product is only useful if it can unprotect the latest maps. The reason SCMC is undefeated in protection is a combination of it being the latest form of protection and the only tools we know of to try against it are old and outdated. There are more recent and powerful unprotectors floating around than OSMap, and if we welcome unprotectors into the community, we may help to popularize them and make them more readily available for average mappers. (If you maintain the belief that this is not a negative thing, I'll refer you to con #4, which is a vicious, cyclical response to popularized unprotectors.)


I know there are more pros/cons to this, but there were certainly some mentioned here that I don't think qualify. The whole "open source movement" argument, for example, is an ideology that many members do not subscribe to (many new maps we get are still protected in one form or another as evidence of this). Denying unprotectors is not denying open-source maps; we are not restricting this ideology by excluding unprotectors here, and we are not forcing it on our members, either. If you want to edit a map that isn't yours, get the original author's permission, plain and simple.

Saying unprotectors should be allowed here because they are readily available is also not a good argument; many things that Sen does not tolerate (warez, pornography, etc.) are readily available elsewhere, but we don't allow them here because of the characteristics of the content.

Finally, saying the rule shouldn't be changed because it's been like this forever is also not a good argument; tradition is not inherently correct. Along those lines, however, I don't think activity should dictate principle, so I would disagree with the idea that unprotectors should be allowed simply because there is less traffic and fewer offenders out there.

Yeah, sorry; I tried to keep that brief, but I just wanted to get all of my thoughts out in one go.



Can we stop using analogies? Unless someone needs clarification on what protection or unprotection does for a person, there's no need for them. Some of the discussion just shifted to how valid the previous analogy was instead of actually discussing the issue. If you can't construct your argument without referring to a loosely related analogous scenario, then you either don't have an argument or don't understand what your argument is. [/PSA]




Dec 1 2012, 2:59 am payne Post #117

:payne:

Quote from DevliN
Quote from payne
Quote from DevliN
and so far I've only really seen unprotectors used to steal/modify maps and not to learn anything anymore. :/
As I mentioned earlier, there is no point in making the unprotector available if the reason we do it for is purely "educational". The Trigger Viewer is all one needs for that.
I personally advocate unprotectors precisely because they let one modify a map.
Right, I'm the first person to mention Trigger Viewer in here and mentioned it multiple times. We can agree on something! Yay! :P

So really at this point the debate with you is whether or not it is acceptable to modify a map regardless of how the map's creator feels, right?
I agreed with you pretty early: http://www.staredit.net/341926/
I had also already mentioned how I believed the debate was precisely what you've just said: does the map's creator have a right of property over his work?
I restated that on an other occasion pretty obviously as well, using an Encase to make sure people would see it: http://www.staredit.net/341961/

But whatever. So now that someone acknowledges my position, I would be glad to find out if I'm just crying out non-sense gibberish, so let's debate the shit out of private property! :awesome:

Quote from DevliN
In my hypothetical scenario from earlier, if you modified a map I made and I got upset about it, would you care?
I would care in the sense that you would probably take action to try to protect what you think is your right and I might then be excluded from my beloved SEN community. :P
You have to understand that if I would indeed modify your map, it'd be because I'd be thinking I have a pretty good reason to do so, and I would most probably let you know why I feel entitled to do so. Transgressing a right that is so ingrained in our culture (talking of 'private property' here) is definitely seen as something rude and impolite, and I do not like to be perceived as such when I in fact do what I believe is right. But in itself, I do not believe that I am obligated to let you know about it.
I would also definitely give credits to you, and mention that I only did "x" to the map, out of respect to another fellow map-maker.
But in the very first place, if there is something I do dislike about your map and I want it changed, I contact you first and try to convince you. And if you end up convincing me that it's not a good idea, then I won't be a jerk and won't waste my time creating my version. And if I convince you, then I've saved myself some time. Contacting the person in charge is always a good option. :)

If I remember properly, Town Wars v1 was a locked map. I felt it needed some improvement, and decided to work on it. I couldn't figure out certain systems, so I unlocked the map (I did try to copy-paste stuff, but it didn't work for some reason so I actually had to redo all the triggers anyways). I then published the v4.05, unlocked, with my name in the credits, but still giving credits to the original creator. And I do not think I've done anything wrong.
That is what I would consider a good example of how civil disobedience can be practical and responsible.

The right to owning the result of your work is however preserved in many types of systems that I consider to be legitimate (or at least, let's say more legitimate than what we currently have). But ultimately, I do believe the most elevated form of system will not allow any form of private property.

P.S. The definition of private property that I am using is "retained property over objects not being used or occupied by the so-called owner".

EDIT: Roy, that was a beautiful post.

Quote
(If you're going to argue that members want unprotectors, my answer is that unprotectors do not really contribute to the community, whereas members and their works do; in this case, even if the opposition to unprotectors were in the minority, their reasoning is more objective for the betterment of the community.)
I definitely do not agree with this. Unprotection contributes to the community in the 5 ways you have just described, plus the other ones mentioned in the thread.
Unprotection can be a part of the production process of a member of the community, and that person is thus to be counted among the beneficial ones to the community.

Your point on placing "Educational purposes" on both Pros and Cons is definitely an interesting approach and is actually pretty representative of the situation. However, your calculation of the whole thing seems to be missing a variable which hasn't been mentioned so far: we used to argue that the Trigger Viewer was all one would require to fulfill the education purpose quality that could be provided by unprotectors. But now that I think of it, it seems to be false: I have personally learned a lot from using pre-made trigger systems and changing stuff to them to see what happens: it's a very dynamic way of learning.
I have recently participated in a group project where the mapper shared the map to a few of us, and we had to figure out how he made his triggers in order to modify it. Well I can ensure you that when the creator wasn't available to answer my questions, the fastest way for me to understand would be to mess around with the triggers to see what happens when I do "x" or "y". If I couldn't figure out, I would then post in the forum.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Dec 1 2012, 3:21 am by payne.



None.

Dec 1 2012, 5:34 am Leeroy_Jenkins Post #118



Okay so it looks like it won't happen because most of SEN seems to live in some fantasy world where no one knows what an unprotector is and by keeping it off of SEN's highly visted site we will rid the world of this filth. When, in actuality, we are only holding SEN members back from protecting their maps with this program. Am I missing something, or doesn't this protector offer the best protection out there? So, we're going to withhold this map protector from the SEN community (the only map makers left), so that no one will unprotect one of the many already unprotectable maps with it. Of course let's just ignore the fact that this can't unprotect maps that it itself has protected.

Let's make a chart
---------------------------------------------------Able to unprotect any map------------- Able to protect any map (without unprotection)
BEFORE Starcraft Map Cracker 2.86--------------- YES-----------------------------------NO

AFTER Starcraft Map Cracker 2.86----------------- NO-----------------------------------YES



None.

Dec 1 2012, 7:06 am Roy Post #119

An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death

Quote from payne
EDIT: Roy, that was a beautiful post.

Quote from Roy
(If you're going to argue that members want unprotectors, my answer is that unprotectors do not really contribute to the community, whereas members and their works do; in this case, even if the opposition to unprotectors were in the minority, their reasoning is more objective for the betterment of the community.)
I definitely do not agree with this. Unprotection contributes to the community in the 5 ways you have just described, plus the other ones mentioned in the thread.
Unprotection can be a part of the production process of a member of the community, and that person is thus to be counted among the beneficial ones to the community.
I see your point, and maybe I didn't phrase my statement perfectly. Here's essentially what I was trying to say on that:

If we allow unprotectors, it creates an environment where members that want their map to be protected wouldn't want to contribute to the community, because our community has accepted and integrated unprotectors. If protection is important to them and there is no way to keep the map protected from the tools on the site, they will be deterred from posting on the site. We'd be appeasing those that want unprotectors and alienating those that want their maps to remain protected. I don't know if "hostile environment" is the correct phrase here, but doing this would be sending a poor message to those that value protection.

If we do not allow unprotectors, there is much less concern from members that want their map to be protected in regards to sharing their work with the community. There is no case where members that want unprotectors would be deterred from wanting to contribute to the site. By disallowing unprotectors, we make a statement that if you post a protected map here, Sen will not allow or encourage the unprotection of that map from anyone but the author.

Quote from payne
Your point on placing "Educational purposes" on both Pros and Cons is definitely an interesting approach and is actually pretty representative of the situation. However, your calculation of the whole thing seems to be missing a variable which hasn't been mentioned so far: we used to argue that the Trigger Viewer was all one would require to fulfill the education purpose quality that could be provided by unprotectors. But now that I think of it, it seems to be false: I have personally learned a lot from using pre-made trigger systems and changing stuff to them to see what happens: it's a very dynamic way of learning.
I have recently participated in a group project where the mapper shared the map to a few of us, and we had to figure out how he made his triggers in order to modify it. Well I can ensure you that when the creator wasn't available to answer my questions, the fastest way for me to understand would be to mess around with the triggers to see what happens when I do "x" or "y". If I couldn't figure out, I would then post in the forum.
There's no doubt in my mind that I learn best by getting hands-on with the material, but of course not everyone learns things the same way. I don't think unprotection is the necessary step to learn something; tutorials, examples and articles are great assets for learning, and experimentation doesn't require you to start with somebody else's map. While I agree that playing with another person's map can be helpful for learning, I don't like the idea of doing it without first seeking the author's permission. I guess for me it boils down to educational perks vs respect to the content creator, and I'm personally more inclined to go with the latter.

Quote from Leeroy_Jenkins
So, we're going to withhold this map protector from the SEN community (the only map makers left), so that no one will unprotect one of the many already unprotectable maps with it. Of course let's just ignore the fact that this can't unprotect maps that it itself has protected.
Yes, and I think that's an reasonable stance to take. I would take the same stance on just about anything that bundled something that is allowed with something that isn't.

As I mentioned, the "best protection" becomes useless protection once unprotection is created for it. Password-protection isn't new in the world of protectors, and ones in the past have failed like this one eventually will. (While slightly off-topic, I stand by the belief that compression will always be better than raw protection.)

Finally, your chart doesn't mean anything toward this site's policy on unprotectors. I don't think I quite understand why you made it.




Dec 1 2012, 12:14 pm NudeRaider Post #120

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

I think Roy hit the nail on the head with his summary of the arguments. Whichever SENs policy about unprotection we're likely not going to change the current situation outside of our community. So our decision should be focused on the impact on SEN.

Added availability of unprotection serves little purpose* here as most members either don't need or already have such a tool. But hosting unprotectors would send out a bad signal towards our members regarding respecting their wishes regardless of our actual intent (to provide a tool for legitimate cases of unprotection). So unless Moose (I pick him because he seemed to have something like that in mind) comes up with a method that prevents the illegitimate uses and atill allows for the legitimate ones we should stay away from hosting unprotectors.
About that I want to throw an idea out there: Maybe we could offer an unprotection service where members appeal with a reason and a map and we'll unprotect it for them. What do you guys think? I assume this would be too extravagantly for both sides to be practical.

As for specifically allowing SCMC 2.86:
Roy's analysis of the protector/unprotector competition is the one number one argument against allowing that program. It might be useful and unbeatable now, but it's very likely that it won't be in the near future, removing its right to exist (because its protection is just one among a crowd) and making its function as the only unprotector on SEN stick out. Which is why I think parsing our database with a protection script is ultimately a waste of time. Time that is better spent improving our wiki or site code.

That being said, I'm against offering downloads to unprotection tools on SEN.

Another argument I want to emphasize:
Quote from Roy
If you want to edit a map that isn't yours, get the original author's permission, plain and simple.
What's important about this is you cannot justify unprotecting their map just because you have no means to contact the original author. In that case you have the right to suck it up and recreate the map to the best of your ability. (I know, another idealistic point of view.)

* I don't think the convenience of having a tool in our dldb instead of having to look for it using google justifies to change SENs policy and perception of the userbase/public.




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[09:38 pm]
NudeRaider -- Ultraviolet
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trust me, you don't wanna hear that. I defer that to the pros.
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Ultraviolet -- NudeRaider
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sing it brother
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NudeRaider -- "War nie wirklich weg" 🎵
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O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- o sen is back
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