Staredit Network Forums Null Topic: Ex's Mafia #1: Staredit Mafia
Ex's Mafia #1: Staredit Mafia
Jan 3 2012, 3:48 pm
By: Roy
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Feb 24 2012, 12:32 am DevliN Post #521

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Right, I meant that I have yet to see anyone else produce any clue interpretations against lil-Inferno. \:\)



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Feb 24 2012, 12:34 am Raitaki Post #522



Someone should implement a "Threads Last Viewed By This Member" function in everyone's profile that tracks and records every thread they visit.



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Feb 24 2012, 12:35 am DevliN Post #523

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No, someone shouldn't.



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
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Feb 24 2012, 12:49 am Roy Post #524

An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death

Also, I'm not sure if anyone noticed and/or cared, but I was throwing in a few jokes/references in the game posts (particularly the Day posts, because they were marked as no-clues). Here's some of them:

Quote from Roy
Not only did they find evidence against Riney and his TeamSpeak server, but the SEN community concluded that he was, without a doubt, just Lingie on a second account.
Quote from Roy
Norm stood silently. It seemed as though he had no interest in answering the question, or that he had not even heard it.
"Ah, I see. Look at the conviction in Norm's eyes," replied the first side. "I can't argue with his resolve, with his purest intentions. The lack of words he used to express his position are beyond words to describe... Very well, let's lynch lil-Inferno instead."
Quote from Roy

It's a Day9 joke...
End of Day #J...
Quote from Roy
Down at the Morgue (also known as SC1 Map Production)
Quote from Roy
TiKels was hung. He was also the target for today's lynching.
Quote from Roy
"Only Veterans and up allowed beyond this point." Symmetry stood guard here


Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Feb 24 2012, 2:53 pm by Roy.




Feb 24 2012, 12:58 am Lanthanide Post #525



Quote from Roy
you shouldn't be able to use a "This person interacts with nobody" to prove a role.
I don't know what you're operating off or what poison's stalk results were, but in no instance did I ever take a "boring result" as 'proof' that they weren't a particular role, merely as evidence that they hadn't used a power on that specific night.

Quote
Also, you got no indication from stalking Ray because I gave you that PM, not Excalibur.
I only stalked Ray because there didn't seem to be any other candidate worth stalking at that stage and I wanted to see what would happen. I was actually expecting to get a dud result, and I said as much in the thread.

Quote from Roy
No it isn't irrelevant, and no you shouldn't be told what they do. If you get "lil-Inferno visits Jack," you don't know if that was a suspension, troll, etc. and therefore don't really know Inferno's alliance.
Right, I mistook your original content. In the case where you know 'what' they do, it doesn't matter who the victim is. You're saying that you shouldn't know 'what', and therefore 'who' is important. I agree, if it doesn't say 'what' then it needs to say 'who', however it does say 'what' so 'who' in this case is irrelevant.

Quote
The way Excalibur set it up, you could confirm not only their alliance, but their role, regardless of what the game post describes.
Given how important roles are in this specific game, and the fact that town was very strongly discouraged from communicating with each other, I think it's fair. If I had stalked poison and it simply said that he visited someone else, that wouldn't really help me at all.

Quote
That wasn't so much a balance issue as it was pointing out the target/targeted setup. In this case, I actually agree with it, but it should apply to every role, not just Town-aligned ones. If you stalked ImagoDeo instead of Zycorax, you should not know Zycorax was the one to kill him. There's no example of stalking a Mafia's target in this game, so I can assume this was setup correctly.
I agree.

Quote
Tell me which one makes better use of the Devilesk role.
Yes, that is more interesting.

Quote
Bad/foolish players have nothing to do with the game balance, just the implementation. And my point was that even with the Town revealing some roles, it still wasn't enough to put the Mafia in the lead at any point during the game.
Because mafia was down a member.

Quote
There shouldn't be a "I'll make it up on my own if my team is doing poorly" role, in my opinion. I'm talking about balance here, and you're talking about having roles that are supposed to undo the mistakes or poor performance of their side.
I don't understand this at all. That is not what I said.

Quote
On the Town's side you have 2 players that receive the alliance/role of a player per night, 2 players that either stop a night action (like a hit) or prevent a player from being harmed, 2 players that can kill at night in case you found more than one Mafia during the lynch cycle, and 2 players that don't die immediately from a single hit. Additionally, the 2 players that can hit become up to 2 more suspenders if they kill someone on their team. Imagine if GMods could choose to suspend or kill like I believe you suggested earlier? You'd have 4 suspensions going a night; that's a lot of protection/prevention.
If GMods had suspend as well as hit, then the roles would need to be rebalanced: either 2 GMs and 1 M, or 2 Ms and 1 GM.

Quote
The players shouldn't be blamed for something the host implements improperly. And correct me if I'm wrong, but all Mafia aside from Lingie (inactive, died early) and kinda Inferno (Seemed that the following clue was the only reason Devlin had for pushing the bandwagon, though) were ousted by clues, but not a single misinform was used to kill anyone. Granted, a regular clue was misinterpreted to kill both Riney (Town) and Jack (Devilesk), but it ultimately wound back around to its owner, and losing players at a 1:1 ratio is horrible for Mafia.
Echo and Raccoon were also killed due to misinterpretations of regular clues.

Quote
Quote from Lanthanide
Quote from Roy
The Devilesk was basically revealed every time someone targeted Jack with anything. This made it statistically improbable for him to hide even if he's playing his role to its best ability.
Yeah, well that's silly.
\:awesome\:
Except this doesn't gel with Tikels saying they only knew he was devilesk because inferno trolled him and got that specific message back. There's no indication that "every time someone targeted Jack with anything" his role was revealed.

Quote
I don't send hit replies, and I doubt anyone got or expected "Your hit is successful!" or "Your hit is unsuccessful!" PMs each night because they don't warrant a PM reply. However, abilities like the Veteran's warrant a PM reply with the results, which is why you get a PM even if your ability was blocked somehow.
Right, chalk this up to my inexperience with mafia, since each time I've had a role that required responses.

HOWEVER, Ex had a specific policy of writing up the relevant night actions in the day post. You can see in the first post he talked about people stalking (poison) and people dodging (Azrael). He didn't include my stalk message because he missed my stalk of tikels and didn't give me the results until I asked for them, but by then the day post was already written. In subsequent day posts, you can see he talks about 2 people stalking other people or giving up etc. So in Ex's descriptions, if mafia had tried to hit someone who was in suspension or who was an elite, I'm sure there would have been some hint as to the result in the day post even if they didn't get a PM telling them of the results. This seems fair - town has to intrepet clues, so should mafia.

Quote
I don't think one side outplayed the other. They both had good players and some not-so-good players (e.g., Lingie and Norm). The reason one side toppled the other was a balance issue. Don't pat yourself on the back too hard, now. \:P
Disagree. It's balanced in favour of mafia with the assumption of 2 night hitters and town not being able to organise. They only had 1 and so were at a huge disadvantage.



None.

Feb 24 2012, 1:23 am Roy Post #526

An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death

Quote from Lanthanide
I don't know what you're operating off or what poison's stalk results were, but in no instance did I ever take a "boring result" as 'proof' that they weren't a particular role, merely as evidence that they hadn't used a power on that specific night.
The fact that you were able to look at TiKels' stalk results, for example, and use it to support what role he is even though he visited nobody is wrong to me. It should have been the same result as if you visited a regular.

Quote from Lanthanide
If I had stalked poison and it simply said that he visited someone else, that wouldn't really help me at all.
Except your result would have read along the lines of "You see poison stalking <name>" with what the ability was doing. It would tell you that he stalked, just like it told you Zycorax killed. I don't think it should have been set up that way.

Quote from Lanthanide
Because mafia was down a member.
True, but from what I've seen, even if Lingie was active it wouldn't have balanced the game. I guess we can just disagree on this speculative point.

Quote from Lanthanide
I don't understand this at all. That is not what I said.
I apologize; that's how I read it.

Quote from Lanthanide
Echo and Raccoon were also killed due to misinterpretations of regular clues.
Oh shit, Echo was playing this game? I shouldn't have mentioned him in the last game post. I'll fix that.

Quote from Lanthanide
Except this doesn't gel with Tikels saying they only knew he was devilesk because inferno trolled him and got that specific message back. There's no indication that "every time someone targeted Jack with anything" his role was revealed.
When the GMod attempted it, I believe they got a response back explaining that they failed and making it clear that it wasn't because their action was interrupted. I could be wrong, though.

Quote from Lanthanide
So in Ex's descriptions, if mafia had tried to hit someone who was in suspension or who was an elite, I'm sure there would have been some hint as to the result in the day post even if they didn't get a PM telling them of the results. This seems fair - town has to intrepet clues, so should mafia.
I agree, but these things belong in the game post if they're going to be mentioned at all.

Quote from Lanthanide
Disagree. It's balanced in favour of mafia with the assumption of 2 night hitters and town not being able to organise. They only had 1 and so were at a huge disadvantage.
When looking at the balance with the way I interpreted how the abilities would be handled, the distribution was relatively well-rounded. However, with the way the abilities were executed, I see it as having balance issues in favor of the Town.

There was nothing to stop the town from organizing that isn't present in most games, so to emphasize this disadvantage is odd; the only difference between Excalibur's coloring and a no-reveal setting is that the Mafia know the revealed roles (except Devilesk), whereas the Town can only speculate. I'll give you that as an advantage, but it's nothing crazy.




Feb 24 2012, 1:35 am DevliN Post #527

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Quote from Roy
There was nothing to stop the town from organizing that isn't present in most games, so to emphasize this disadvantage is odd...
I sort of disagree with this given the DA's role. If people organized with the DA (like they did, apparently) then the DA learns their roles and kills them in a mass hit. I think the assumption that revealing your role to someone could get you killed was more present in this one than any prior Mafia game. \:\/



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Feb 24 2012, 1:53 am Roy Post #528

An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death

Quote from DevliN
Quote from Roy
There was nothing to stop the town from organizing that isn't present in most games, so to emphasize this disadvantage is odd...
I sort of disagree with this given the DA's role. If people organized with the DA (like they did, apparently) then the DA learns their roles and kills them in a mass hit. I think the assumption that revealing your role to someone could get you killed was more present in this one than any prior Mafia game. \:\/
Ah yeah, I see. But it's not to say that factor isn't present in other games. Anyone with a power role doesn't want to let the Mafia know, and anyone with a regular role should actually prefer the Mafia to target them over a more powerful role, so they wouldn't want Mafia to know either.

I did enjoy how the DA role stopped (for the most part) players from just revealing their role, but I also didn't notice the town having more difficulty in organizing this game.




Feb 24 2012, 2:00 am Lanthanide Post #529



Quote from Roy
Quote from Lanthanide
Except this doesn't gel with Tikels saying they only knew he was devilesk because inferno trolled him and got that specific message back. There's no indication that "every time someone targeted Jack with anything" his role was revealed.
When the GMod attempted it, I believe they got a response back explaining that they failed and making it clear that it wasn't because their action was interrupted. I could be wrong, though.
I don't know. But the result I got on that night simply said I couldn't find him (because he was suspended). I imagine that the GM would have received a similar message, and if they didn't, they should have.

Quote
There was nothing to stop the town from organizing that isn't present in most games, so to emphasize this disadvantage is odd; the only difference between Excalibur's coloring and a no-reveal setting is that the Mafia know the revealed roles (except Devilesk), whereas the Town can only speculate. I'll give you that as an advantage, but it's nothing crazy.
Strongly disagree on this, for the reason Devlin says.



None.

Feb 24 2012, 2:13 am DevliN Post #530

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Quote from Roy
I also didn't notice the town having more difficulty in organizing this game.
Maybe I'm just no longer trustworthy given my track record, but Lanth and ray seemed to be the only players I talked to in this game and my alliance with Lanth came about pretty late in the game all things considered. We didn't seem to have a hub like we have in the past, though that may be due to the fact that you were a co-host and typically you become the hub. \:P



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
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Feb 24 2012, 3:01 am Roy Post #531

An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death

Quote from Lanthanide
Quote from Roy
There was nothing to stop the town from organizing that isn't present in most games, so to emphasize this disadvantage is odd; the only difference between Excalibur's coloring and a no-reveal setting is that the Mafia know the revealed roles (except Devilesk), whereas the Town can only speculate. I'll give you that as an advantage, but it's nothing crazy.
Strongly disagree on this, for the reason Devlin says.
Quote from DevliN
Quote from Roy
I also didn't notice the town having more difficulty in organizing this game.
Maybe I'm just no longer trustworthy given my track record, but Lanth and ray seemed to be the only players I talked to in this game and my alliance with Lanth came about pretty late in the game all things considered. We didn't seem to have a hub like we have in the past, though that may be due to the fact that you were a co-host and typically you become the hub. \:P
I would have hubbed it up immediately. Give me a scenario where me being the hub is bad for my team. \:awesome\:

But yeah, I can see the scenario of townies being afraid to share their roles. So if by "organize" you mean "know each others' roles," yes, it was harder. I've worked with people without knowing their roles, though, and I'd still consider that as organizing.




Feb 24 2012, 3:03 am TiKels Post #532



Quote
Except this doesn't gel with Tikels saying they only knew he was devilesk because inferno trolled him and got that specific message back. There's no indication that "every time someone targeted Jack with anything" his role was revealed.
We also had hit him on one night, I believe, which led me to think he was elite.

Quote from DevliN
Maybe I'm just no longer trustworthy given my track record
I'll say



Getting roles is hard, k? I'm a horrible liar and an even worse mafia player. It sucks because I get mafia like 5 out of 7 times.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Feb 24 2012, 3:09 am by TiKels.



None.

Feb 24 2012, 3:14 am DevliN Post #533

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Quote from TiKels
It sucks because I get mafia like 5 out of 7 times.
LOL try getting it 7 out of 5 times like me.



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Feb 24 2012, 4:02 am OlimarandLouie Post #534



Quote from DevliN
Quote from TiKels
It sucks because I get mafia like 5 out of 7 times.
LOL try getting it 7 out of 5 times like me.
I guess that means we should lynch you first next mafia \:awesome\:



None.

Feb 24 2012, 4:19 am DevliN Post #535

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Quote from OlimarandLouie
Quote from DevliN
Quote from TiKels
It sucks because I get mafia like 5 out of 7 times.
LOL try getting it 7 out of 5 times like me.
I guess that means we should lynch you first next mafia \:awesome\:
Well duh, I'm clearly always Mafia! There are avatars and saved shouts to prove it!!



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Invasion: Ares | OMG TEH ZOMBIES!!!

Feb 24 2012, 4:47 am Zycorax Post #536

Grand Moderator of the Games Forum

I have to say I'm surprised that you didn't lynch me sooner. The clues against me seemed quite obvious from the beginning, though I guess they're easier to spot when you know who they're aiming at \:P




Feb 24 2012, 6:23 am DevliN Post #537

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Quote from Zycorax
I have to say I'm surprised that you didn't lynch me sooner. The clues against me seemed quite obvious from the beginning, though I guess they're easier to spot when you know who they're aiming at \:P
Hey now, I mentioned you as a suspect from Day 1 thanks to the Games clues. I know Jack did the same shortly after as well. I guess people just wanted concrete evidence (lololololololol) before joining me (or us?) in voting for you. \:awesome\:



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