Staredit Network > Forums > Serious Discussion > Topic: The so Called Messiah
The so Called Messiah
Feb 20 2011, 4:45 am
By: UnholyUrine  

Feb 20 2011, 4:45 am UnholyUrine Post #1



Hmm,
Posting a new topic on Serious Discussion feels strange. It's like stepping up and being initiated into a higher class..

Anyway, let's start this topic off with videos for all the enjoy.
And if you really do not have the time to view all the videos, please don't post until you do, as I wish to discuss things about the videos












Quote from Roy
Quote from JaFF
Channel 4 blocked it in the UK. Any alternative sources?
Full Video (UK viewers only)

Part 1/2 (Low quality)
Part 2/2 (Low quality)

It's a surprisingly interesting documentary.


Okay, let me introduce you to Derren Brown quickly. He's a well known actor in Britain whose specialty is in many performing various tricks of the mind. He has been known to read other's minds, do numerous psychological experiments, perform many tricks that'd easily deem him as a "psychic", and also debunk them scientifically (www.scienceofscam.com). The idea that I want you to take from these videos is that a person with the right training, techniques, and of course talents, can convince people to believe common para-normalities/superstitions.

What I want to discuss here is how the techniques shown by him in these videos can have humongous consequences. With the several things he's shown here, it is easy to see how and why people cling to their religion and beliefs. I think that people really need to take a step back and really think about what they believe in. A lot of things can influence us to behave in ways which we would normally not... And a lot of people tend to hold their beliefs so strongly that they ignore all other evidence and knowledge.

This can be applied to many things that I see... from one's religion all the way to one's design of maps. It is because of this, I just want to say that one has to develop the ability to question their beliefs. To quote from the movie, "It is passion, not knowledge, that teaches [people] to be certain of [their beliefs]".

Now what I want to ask you is have any of you ever experienced this sort of persuasion? Whether it is someone you know or yourself? I used to believe in some of the Buddhist's religion, but I never 100% accepted them. But from this rather brief interlude, I've learned a lot.

So overall, I can't say that religion is a bag of shmuck and should all be banished, because good things can come out of it. But I really want to convince all of you to step back and question who you are, what you believe, your arguments, your identity, and be more knowledgeable - rather than screen oneself with blinding passion.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Feb 21 2011, 9:18 pm by UnholyUrine.



None.

Feb 20 2011, 8:42 am BeDazed Post #2



It is always good to take a step back and self-reflect for a while. Thanks for your kind advice. Though I don't really see much need for discussion here. People aren't people if they cannot be influenced. Imagine if you weren't able to be influenced the moment you were born. You'd do only what your instinct tells you to do. You'd grow into a monkey.



None.

Feb 20 2011, 1:31 pm JaFF Post #3



Channel 4 blocked it in the UK. Any alternative sources?



None.

Feb 20 2011, 5:48 pm Roy Post #4

An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death

Quote from JaFF
Channel 4 blocked it in the UK. Any alternative sources?
Full Video (UK viewers only)

Part 1/2 (Low quality)
Part 2/2 (Low quality)

It's a surprisingly interesting documentary.




Feb 20 2011, 10:38 pm UnholyUrine Post #5



Thanks Roy.. Fixed OP



None.

Feb 20 2011, 11:13 pm samsizzle Post #6



Quote
Now what I want to ask you is have any of you ever experienced this sort of persuasion? Whether it is someone you know or yourself? I used to believe in some of the Buddhist's religion, but I never 100% accepted them. But from this rather brief interlude, I've learned a lot.

I don't know if you guys know about this religion... But I was raised one of Jehovah's Witnesses, so I know exactly what you're talking about with the whole passion/knowledge thing. My mom was absolutely convinced what they taught was the truth, same with my sisters. I always had doubts about it. Throughout my childhood I watched my mom and my sisters tear themselves up over how they weren't being faithful and all that shit... Humans are imperfect, and I'm not saying that's an excuse to be a jackass with no morals, but you shouldn't get horribly depressed about it to a point where it affects the people around you in a negative way. There was even a point where I started to question what I was thinking about the religion. I thought I was wrong to question all of the stuff they taught, so I just ignored my doubts and took a leap of faith off a bridge... it pretty much ended up with me being constantly depressed because I never contributed enough to the religion.

Now, I'm not saying the religion was horrible... its just that it was created for perfect humans to follow. So I realized whatever I did would never be enough and I'd waste myself away for something I really knew nothing about. It taught me some really important things and I'm thankful for that. But I'm not convinced at all... I'm still debating whether or not god exists and I'll probably do so til I die. But whatever... I'm not accusing anyone of anything. It was just not for me. My dad was probably the biggest contributor to keeping me from being totally closed-minded, he always just asked me questions that got me thinking about things.

I don't know where I was going with that but I hope it was on topic.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Feb 20 2011, 11:20 pm by samsizzle.



None.

Feb 21 2011, 9:24 pm UnholyUrine Post #7



Yeah. I kinda started off wanted to bring my own thoughts to this, but as I typed, it became rather ambiguous, so I just threw it all away and asked you guys for your experiences.

I think the best you can do right now is, rather than being depressed or try to win the likes of your religion, you should try to gain knowledge about your religion. After all, the more you know about it, the more power you have... whether it is the power to reject it, the power to reason it, or even the power to accept it. It may help you reason with your families as well.

To me, knowledge is the most purest of forms. It is not perfect, as our scientific systems are not. But facts must go through tons of scrutiny and statistical endeavors to have experts believe it to be true. So, in that way, it is also the most pure.. or you can say, the most filtered...

Anyways, self-knowledge will bring positive feelings, whether or not it's correct. It is okay to doubt, but don't let it grow on you.



None.

Mar 22 2011, 5:52 pm CaptainWill Post #8



Yeah you do seem to be the kind of guy who'd like Derren Brown's stuff. In fact I'd recommend watching as many shows from Channel 4 as you can (not Hollyoaks though) - they tend to release a lot of provocative content.

Also, their comedies are off-beat and great. Peep Show is quite possibly the best comedy to come out of Britain in the last 20 years. The only show I've watched which has it beat is Arrested Development.



None.

Apr 9 2011, 8:49 pm UnholyUrine Post #9



Well, I wouldn't know if this stuff is staged or not, and I definitely don't find it very funny. But all of it makes a compelling argument, regardless of what happened behind the scenes.
don't think i didn't see what you did there

The argument being made is that a lot of things people believe in or hold as truth can simply be due to their passion (or their "faith") in it.

And, most importantly, I'm not trying to say that people's beliefs are all bogus or untruthful. The lesson here is to always question the things you believe in, and always strive to be more informed, rather than blindly accept the things around you.



None.

May 14 2011, 4:29 pm TiKels Post #10



I showed my mom this and she got angry because it went against everything she really believes.



"If a topic that clearly interest noone needs to be closed to underline the "we don't want this here" message, is up to debate."

-NudeRaider

May 14 2011, 6:01 pm UnholyUrine Post #11



Really?.....
It's about being informed... but sometimes, the truth hurts.. (i can't put this in any less lame words)

But What do you think?
if you're in conflict with it, try to write it down and draw out your reasons. Self-reasoning may be incorrect, but it helps you either way.



None.

May 14 2011, 7:07 pm TiKels Post #12



My mom believes in some weird hippy-esque ideologies.

She viewed him as being a person who is really "tuned in" with the universe, and able to pick up on other people's thoughts etc. And he's just abusing his ability and being stupid and being like "Look I can do this and I don't have any abilities herp derp." She also believes in the whole "everyone has the capacity to do some things," but that you have to unlock it.

I think that he has some good ideas and he's very interesting. I view things in a more logic based fashion, taking no presumptions and believing only with irrefutable evidence, and still being skeptical then. I actually am kinda happy you linked to this guy... He's cool. I saw the videos where he manipulated people and robbed them... Like stealing clothes off of their back while standing in front of them...



"If a topic that clearly interest noone needs to be closed to underline the "we don't want this here" message, is up to debate."

-NudeRaider

May 14 2011, 8:19 pm UnholyUrine Post #13



You should try to find sm of his On Stage performances.
Those are the most believable and most amazing to me...

What impresses me is not only his ability, but also his acting skills and his good sense of humor and entertainment.
Yeah, he's an actor.. and while things may be fake, at least he made me think.

@Tikel's Mom :P
Ask her to write down what she thinks this "capacity" is and what are the "some things". While I think that's a nice way to think of the world, it seems like your views and hers conflict. If she writes it down and you write down what you think, both of you would have a easier time reasoning with each other..

Actually, it's quite an interesting way of putting things.. Saying a person has this ability, but is abusing it by teaching other people about being aware of this ability... instead of Using this ability to .. for example.. make buttloads of money..? lawls



None.

May 14 2011, 9:14 pm TiKels Post #14



I understand her views completely, I just think they are silly. Ironically her views kinda go against what Derren Brown says.

She believes literally Derren has the ability to like, read minds and predict the future, to do all of the things he claims are "fake". Not just derren, but other people as well. Essentially that all of the things he does are things he actually does, and that he created a reality of "oh this stuff is impossible so it's human psychology, not anything mystical," as opposed to accepting his gifts. I couldn't get her to watch one whole episode. I DID, however, show her the one about memorizing huge chunks of information with photographic reading.

She said that he was tuned in to his thoughts, essentially.

Quote
Actually, it's quite an interesting way of putting things.. Saying a person has this ability, but is abusing it by teaching other people about being aware of this ability... instead of Using this ability to .. for example.. make buttloads of money..? lawls
You misunderstand. She is saying that he is misusing his "ability" by saying "oh no this is completely false" and driving people "the wrong way". He should be using his ability to teach people about how there is more to life than meets the eye.

Funny stuff.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 15 2011, 12:07 pm by TiKels.



"If a topic that clearly interest noone needs to be closed to underline the "we don't want this here" message, is up to debate."

-NudeRaider

May 15 2011, 6:35 am Oh_Man Post #15

Find Me On Discord (Brood War UMS Community & Staredit Network)

But he clearly shows how he does those thing WITHOUT being a mind reader, etc. How can she argue otherwise unless she is deliberately ignoring what he says?




May 15 2011, 11:55 am TiKels Post #16



Because one could think they are learning how to do it by some photo-reading method when they are really training to do something else.

Look I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but I take every point of view with a grain of salt, and I just wanted to say that in the last 2 days, numbers have shown up that shouldn't have.

I keep having the number 3860 386 or 86 show up in my life. Look at my profile number (there was only a 4 hour window I think). My phone has an icon on it for the tool menu that is a calculator, the number on it is 3860. Yesterday I was trying to win a contest that 400 people were entered for, you had to guess a number between 1 and 500, the answer was 386. When we were arguing, the power went out and out of the corner of my eye I saw the answering machine blink 127 (whether it did or not, doesn't matter, it's the number I saw), I actually verbalized this to my mother. I was reading a book this morning and it mentioned the number 127.

Oh also, this one is less surprising, but when I told my friends about 3860, one of them tried to look it up in numerology on their phone, but they got a phone number of some expert that happens to be in my area. I looked up the number today but I only found a dead link to an astrology website and some reverend or something. Upon more digging I found her and she had changed her number and her middle and last name (married maybe?).

My mom would say that these are signs that the universe is trying to tell me something. Like statistically the odds of these occurrences (mostly first paragraph) arising are extremely low, so therefore something must be at play (by her logic). I countered with there are 7 billion people in the world, so it has to happen to someone. Still, interesting when you pay attention.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on May 15 2011, 12:06 pm by TiKels.



"If a topic that clearly interest noone needs to be closed to underline the "we don't want this here" message, is up to debate."

-NudeRaider

May 15 2011, 1:30 pm Oh_Man Post #17

Find Me On Discord (Brood War UMS Community & Staredit Network)

"Because one could think they are learning how to do it by some photo-reading method when they are really training to do something else."
I don't understand what this sentence means.

As for all the numbers stuff, that is just pattern seeking inherit in all humans. We see lots of numbers in life, sometimes you'll see the same number many times in quick succession, mostly you won't. There is nothing magical or mystical about it...

Good video about this, I highly recommend you watch it. 6 minutes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOMqDIXsLm8




May 16 2011, 7:11 am UnholyUrine Post #18





Cool guy, Oh Man (Private Parts?)..
This video is pretty good as well :)



None.

May 16 2011, 9:11 am Oh_Man Post #19

Find Me On Discord (Brood War UMS Community & Staredit Network)

Yes I am PP, henceforth known As Oh_Man, slayer of dragons, seducer of women, drinker of... coke.

Here is another Michael Shermer one that is a MUST for those who are having trouble sifting through all the contradictory information there. He calls it a 'baloney detection kit' and its a good set of guidelines used to recognize when theories put forward (eg. conspiracy theories) are selectively picking evidence, bias, etc.


Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on May 16 2011, 5:55 pm by CecilSunkure. Reason: Removed off-topic discussion.




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