I would want to hear it.

I want to hear your notes too Roy.

The reason I had hopped on the bandwagon was because communication was poor - it really did look like you werre mafia; I couldn't get word or suggestion from you on who to save nor could I get info on who was what role, so even after you died I was scrambling a little for information on who was vital. What was really frustrating was after you died and Az approached me he said that youu said you were in constant communication with your doctors, but you weren't with me...and I was the doctor alive the longest wasn't I?

Bad luck on your side I suppose with how many townies you managed to kill early on it didn't make you look too innocent.

Az just knew who to kill first.

As far as balance goes, I feel like everyone is bias in saying that the other side was more powerful. As for how the game went, I think it was as successful as it could have been. Inferno was a great host, but in my personal opinion the role combinations really took away some of the essential elements of your typical mafia game. I think the last thing that should be altered by powers is the voting process. Voting is really the only way for the town to win and the only way for each player to have their own part in the game, even if their role is meaningless. When there are so many roles that alter votes or have multiple votes, your ability to participate in the game is extremely limited. This combined with the absence of clues was a terrible combination.

I have already stated that I am adamantly against roles with unknown powers, and I believe the beguiler was OP because of just this. Another essential element of the game is trusting your host. The fact that the beguiler could make Inferno say stuff, and that the town had no way to learn that it wasn't Inferno saying that stuff, really broke that element of being able to trust what your host is posting. Confusion is a great concept for a mafia game, but mafia needs a type of confusion that is solvable by the town through working things out. This confusion was just complete bewilderment that had no hopes of being understood.

All in all, it was a fun game. As per usual, most townies were inactive and not very helpful, but this is to be expected. I think I was one of the most pro-town townies, but I was pretty limited by my role. I think some of Roy's actions were a tad illogical, but then again using logic turned out not to be the most successful thing to do in this game. Lastly, I think Raitaki used his powers to their maximum potential. I still think the beguiler's powers were extremely dumb, but Raitaki couldn't help that and I do believe he played extremely well.

Please refer to my post and refer to the rules. The town had every reason to doubt the added text, but they didn't.

---

I agree with Az, town was favored.

In this particular setup, Town is favored. However, you should recognize that the setup was fine, but the host's conduct was not. I cannot be the only one who sees a problem with how Inferno handled this game by liberally interpreting everything so that it was slanted towards mafia.

See shoutbox log here. Read from bottom up.

First off, no one tried looking for clues that entire game. Where do you get the idea that people were looking for clues in the night posts? Second off, all of the evidence you said about the town being able to tell Inferno wasn't writing that stuff was soft evidence. None of it was 100% and we had no idea that there was even a possibility that someone could be altering Inferno's text. If you wanted to go off of every single suspicion during that game as to what the beguiler's powers were, we would've done a lot crazier stuff than just assumed that Inferno wasn't writing the night posts. Third off, Inferno let you write your own death scenes and chose your own death. This may be a questionable decision, but in a game where there are no clues, I don't see the problem. This meant that most of Inferno's writings weren't his own. There are probably many styles of writing in the game, not just Inferno's and the beguiler's.

As a rule of thumb, whenever I make a judgement of someone's alignment, I am usually wrong.

I've been reviewing Roy's death.


Lynching is an execution. Roy can't just "die" from no apparent means, there was a process involved. That process was the ballet box, which should have shown that Roy was up for lynch.

The Day post did not follow the rules, in this case.

The final vote tally never showed Elder or sabotaged votes, nor did it show the Trump Card votes. These powers would have been fairly useless if it had. We confirmed with Inferno beforehand that using the Trump Card would not inform the Town that Roy had died through voting; if it had, we would not have ever used the power, for obvious reasons.

The way Roy acted in the day post was accurate to the circumstances, if you look at it from the perspective of someone frustrated with the Town's behavior, who won't let Mouse die because he didn't receive the most votes.

@Aristocrat, it wasn't a "Mafia mistake" to use the Beguiler power to recolor Roy, which was later covered up by changing the OP. I discussed with Inferno the capabilities of the power before we used it, and already knew it would be recolored.

The basis of the OP recoloring was the primary "restriction" which was placed on the power: It had to look like a legitimate part of the night post.

It wouldn't look legitimate if the person hadn't been recolored appropriately.

Similarly, this was the restriction that prevented us from causing the death of people who hadn't actually died, and led to the use of "if/then" conditions. If the people mentioned didn't die, the inserted text would not be legitimate, and couldn't have been used.


Yes you did. It had been suggested a few times, even in the thread, and was ignored.

Votes don't need to be publicly tallied, but dying through lynching is dying through lynching.

Feel free to read the rest of my posts. There was no hard proof that suggested it was true. It was ignored because it was a random suspicion. Let me say again, if we went over every single suspicion as to what the beguilers power's might be, we would be assuming a lot more things than just that Inferno wasn't writing his posts. If we had hard proof, such as if the beguiler's powers weren't unknown, then it would not of been ignored, and therefore we would have known there was a possibility that someone was altering Inferno's text.

And you should have been. It makes no sense not to. When there's a player with unknown powers, and things are happening which shouldn't be possible based on the OP, then the only explanation is that the events taking place reflect those unknown powers.

Now take into account players being recolored the next day. This isn't anywhere in the OP. That means one of two things:

1) The Beguiler can make Mafia look like Town for one night after they die.
2) The Beguiler can make Town look like Mafia one night after they die.

Considering it had already been stated that the Beguiler could probably add false information to the night post, as evidenced by Roy being so obviously incriminated earlier, the second choice was the most logical conclusion.

I know Sacrieur put it together, before anyone was ever recolored, because he sent me a whisper about it as soon as the night post went up, although he was luckily already dead. Roy as well was telling people this is what had happened, and what the Beguiler's power was, but was largely ignored.

These weren't guesses that people made up, they were deductions made based on a number of inconsistencies taking place in the game.

The evidence that you think was so obvious is that the writing style of the night posts was different than the hosts. So you think that we should go over every single possibility (countless) of what the beguiler's powers would be based on evidence either this weak or stronger? Honestly Azrael, that makes no sense. The evidence that you think should've been so obvious is actually quite a stretch. I mean, writing styles? Seriously? If the town were actually to do this, you are essentially saying that we shouldn't trust any action or any result because the beguiler might have had the power to alter it. The evidence we had to prove that was true was about the same as the evidence we had to prove that he could alter Inferno's posts.

Roy was very obviously incriminated. Inferno then followed up with a post saying that he can leave clues as to the status of the state of the game.

Logical assumption: Roy is mafia. Inferno saw that the town had no hopes of winning seeing as we had no hopes of telling that Roy was mafia. So Inferno balanced out the sides a bit by leaving a message on the status of the game.

Illogical assumption: We listen to Roy (who is logically mafia) who is stating that the beguiler has powers to actually force Inferno to say certain things in his posts (I don't believe he ever even specifically said this) thus declaring his innocence as the beguiler probably forced Inferno to incriminate him. This is as far of a stretch as you can go. If you want a more logical assumption, we assume beguiler can fake detective reports and that TiKel's incriminating report on the most pro-town player at that point was false. Yet, no one even brought up that idea....

Going over every single one of the possibilities of the beguiler's powers is clearly very inefficient. At that rate, we probably wouldn't trust anyone or anything. As far as Sac goes, he is one person. I doubt he guessed the beguiler's powers spot on, and even if he did, that is only one person's guess. If everyone had different guesses as to what the beguiler's powers were, surely at least one person is going to be correct.

I'm really failing to see how you are failing to see how much of a nuisance roles with unknown powers truly are.

And in fact, if anyone bothered to look through the Resident Evil and SEN Mafia threads that I participated in, you'll see that I threw out huge amounts of speculation as to what the beguiler/troll powers could be. I also did that to some extent in this game (partly because Az didn't actually tell me what most of them were) to carry on my ruse of being a townie and because I figured they were questions that needed to be raised.

It seems that not many people really did this in this game, at least not in the thread. Which is another town failing.

Raccoon's hit on one of my points already, but here you go:

1) Inferno had been adapting the game based on suggestions from players after roles had been given. This is not what a host should do, especially since the suggestions greatly influenced the game (i.e., Inferno was changing the outcome of the game).
2) Inferno was talking about the game outside of hosting it (in the Shoutbox, to other players, etc.). It got to the point where I could confirm townies by what he was saying (this happened with Riney, who I lynched anyway because it felt dishonest to let that confirmation influence my strategy). I know this is a hard thing to do, especially when you're facing frustrations like inactive players and poor decisions from a given side, but it's still a necessity to prevent behavioral analysis on the host.
3) Related to #1, Inferno had been adapting the game based on factors he didn't consider until the game was in progress. The example I have is Broadcast, which the mafia used to "incriminate" me, but I shrugged off with the mention that there are no clues in this game. Inferno likely took this from the Broadcaster role, which in the past was made clear to be a broadcast. Inferno made a post to try to make it sound as though he was allowed to hint at these things, and later even threw in that Broadcast can change the game list colors to make it more legitimate. He basically threw in a useless ability, realized it was useless, and then changed it on-the-fly to do something different (make it look like part of his post instead of a broadcasted message, changing the colors in the player list, etc.).
4) Allowing Aristocrat to suicide. I hope I needn't explain why a host shouldn't be doing things that aren't mentioned in the parameters of the game.

Overall, I enjoyed the game much more when I wasn't aware of the issues I had with the hosting, but I wouldn't say Inferno is a bad host. If anyone reading this is planning on hosting a game sometime, though, I'd suggest avoiding these issues.

As far as the players go:

1) Inactivity is always a problem. If you didn't miss submitting a night action or a voting session, give yourself a pat on the back because you are an awesome player.
2) TiKels was the worst townie, but only because he agreed to something that forced him to play as such. I would say I don't blame him, but after getting most of the details, that would be a lie.
3) When it was "revealed" that I was mafia, one of two things should have happened. The first would be that everyone reveals their roles, since the mafia already have them, so you'd only be hurting the town by not sharing. The only reason not to do this is if you still believed I was town-aligned, in which case, you should have been speaking out on it and suspecting the players that disagreed. Since neither of these happened, the town was in a weird state where they acted as though I was mafia-aligned and town-aligned simultaneously in the worst combination for their team. For example, Olimar said he trusted Azrael because of a PM I sent saying I had evidence suggesting he was town-aligned (yes, that full-stop was a typo, by the way), but then voted on the Mouse bandwagon because of the argument that it was me trying to protect a mafia member.

I did state this in the Shoutbox, and perhaps I should have said so in a post that day as well (I had no idea I would die that day, so I thought I had time to build my case while the mafia reveal themselves via advocacy of the incorrect deduction). I correctly asserted the issue with Broadcast (as mentioned above) that was taking place, though that put me in the state of behaviorally analyzing the host (which is not at all how I want to play this game).

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Sep 29 2012, 10:57 pm by Roy.

I never said that, read my posts again.


Which is partially the intention of the Beguiler's existence. Choosing to trust everyone and everything is pretty foolish when an information manipulating role with unknown powers exists.


I'm really failing to see how you are failing to see how much of a necessity roles with unknown powers truly are.

I didn't guess anything about the beguiler's abilities. It was all logical deduction.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Sep 29 2012, 11:33 pm by Sacrieur.

You did in shoutbox.

There is a large grey area between trusting everyone and everything, and not trusting everyone and everything. If you want a balanced mafia game, the town should be somewhere in between. Clearly this argument is now a matter of opinion, but I'm disappointed that you ignored the majority of my posts and only responded to certain parts.

No.