i will read the new posts when i can later, i need help with this now: creating a "complex hyper trigger", the one that needs to have two parts to be split amongst two players. the problem is that even though there will be a minimum of two players that will be in force 1 (4 players total), force 1 has random start locations and thus random player numbers as it seems. if there is a player that always has the same number, there is no problem creating the second part of the hyper trigger for all the other players and whoever else enters, even if more than one with the same second trigger part enter it will still work as expected. should i use common sense and use the bring command to activate these two trigger parts for the active players, or is there a simpler way?

Why can't you use the standard hyper triggers?

Anyways this could be what you're looking for.

Simpler Way: If you use the trigger from this topic, it won't matter which players are running the hyper: http://www.staredit.net/topic/16433/

There's no reason to use the two-trigger method over this method.

yeah i forgot about that one, it should be added to the hyper trigger wiki page

can someone expand on this?

would that hyper trigger cause wait blocks? what if it is given to more than one player with a death counter for current player? and what about lag? i read that this is only when a scenario is overfilled with triggers and units is when it begins to lag heavier on the cpu.

yeah i think i managed to get there without really thinking about it

thanks for these it pretty much sums it up.

commands works with hallucinations and bunker loaded units but bring does not?

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jun 28 2014, 12:37 pm by KoKo_PiDeRaS.

All hyper triggers are capable of causing wait blocks because of the nature in which they work. The solution is to not use waits. The rules around it are the same, though: if the player isn't running more than one other trigger with waits in it, no blocking will happen.

As for lag, that really depends on what you're doing. You can cause the game to lag without hyper triggers if you wanted, and it's very rare that you would cause lag unintentionally with hyper triggers.

No. First, no condition can detect hallucinations directly. Secondly, in regards to detecting units in bunkers/transport, Nude was referring to this, mentioned on the quirks wiki page:

For both of our sakes, let's just stick to using DCs. I'll expand on why waits cause problems when I finish my article (I am working on it!), but suffice to say trying to use waits anyway will not help make anything easier.

if no hyper trigger is used, would normal triggers without waits cause 'wait blocks' or those 2 second interval pauses between trigger cycles?

i found a map that casts the recall sprite and that disables friendly attacks to your own units (even Feedback does no damage even though it drains energy) that we discussed here earlier. where can i upload it for discussion?

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jun 28 2014, 2:52 pm by KoKo_PiDeRaS.

Triggers would cycle at their normal rate (every 1.344 real seconds). This is the same amount of time a blocked hyper trigger system would take.

Waits cause other problems as well, so don't think of them as an easy solution. For instance, there is only one wait timer per player, so only one wait can be executed at a time.

Yes, it would cause one of those. The latter, specifically. It wouldn't cause "Wait blocks" necessarily, but using waits could cause "Wait delays" as well. So it's always better to just opt for hyper triggers. And it's always better to avoid using waits. I don't know if you missed it, but Death Counters can do lots of cool things, including acting as a fully-functional replacement to waits.

Recall can be casted using the "Run AI Script at Location" action. Disabling friendly attacks is simply just running the "Set Alliance" action as mentioned earlier. You can also modify the damage on Feedback by tinkering with Upgrade 60 (mentioned in this article: http://www.staredit.net/starcraft/Upgrade).

If you have a UMS-related question, either post it here or start a new topic for it and attach any relevant map(s).

Edit: Since you seem to be skeptical on the issue, I've attached a map showing the alliance status preventing attacks on allies.

Attachments:

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jun 28 2014, 3:07 pm by Roy.

Yes. Here's a summary of what a wait blocks is because you need to know that to understand what I'm explaining next.

The sc trigger engine has the limitation that there can only run 1 wait per player at a time. So if there's an active wait for that player and there's another trigger for the same player with another wait action their trigger will be halted until the first wait finishes and only then the 2nd wait will begin. The first trigger has blocked the 2nd trigger's actions from continuing. That's what we call a wait block.

Hyper triggers are always waits and they work by executing short waits over and over again and each time stimulating a new trigger loop. So when there's always a wait running and you add another wait obviously a wait block will happen.
And now here comes the trick: By moving the hypers to the bottom of the trigger list you make sure that the hyper is the 2nd trigger that will get blocked, so the other trigger with the (supposedly) long wait runs fine. So technically this is still a wait block, but one that you control.
"But...", you might say, "I don't want my hypers to get blocked! I need them always on!". Don't worry, that's the second trick: The hypers are owned by All Players, so every active player runs their own copy. And as long as there's at least one player left that still runs their hypers the effect will be active for every player.

Death counters, don't interact with waits or with each other. Just use them as carefree timers.
Yes triggers in the thousands will generate lag because of CPU load. Hyper triggers are at most 24 triggers (3x8, classic hypers) or as few as 2 (complex hypers), so no worries there.

My memory of these quirks is a bit flaky so I guess hallucinated isn't relevant. But I seem to remember that at least, at most and exactly also don't work entirely intuitive when dealing with transports, bunkers or hangars.
Too lazy to test to make sure, but it was something like when you got a bunker filled with marines both "at least 1 marine at bunker" (counts units inside) and "at most 0 marines at bunker" (doesn't count units inside) return true.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jun 28 2014, 3:19 pm by NudeRaider.

the alliance map you attached depicts the 'impossible attack' that i was talking about.
tested the map i had in mind, the feedback works on enemy and allied units as expected (the ghosts that are walking towards each other), but it works doing no damage as i mentioned before on the player's own ghost. this is an RPG i got from someone while playing on battle.net, there is a "spellbook" barracks (Ctrl+2/Ctrl+3), i'll also upload a save with the ghost character chosen (Ctrl+1), the firebat spell spawns a dark archon for a small period of time, enough to test feedback, and the ghost spell spawns the recall field on the character. use the "breathe deep" and "show me the money" cheat codes to restore mana (gas) fast
the map should be in the download folder and the save in the save folder under the username.
i picked ghost, second choice doesn't matter, the dark archon, the psi emmiter (which triggers the recall), and the fourth doesnt matter. i upgraded "intelligence" on the mineral patch to increase the maximum gas for testing the spells. take a terran beacon to test feedback on the friendly ghosts.
is it possible to edit how much damage feedback does to each single player? if not, then how is this done
*i just tested unused 60 and it did not change feedback damage, though it worked for some of other things without an asterisk of the list like kakaru/building armor and scv damage (no added damage to drone and probe even though the upgrade displayed)
can anyone explain how to create a recall animation (that doesn't actually move units)

well one more question about waits, say all players are running hyper triggers, if i understand correctly, if player1 has a trigger in action with a longer wait, it would stall player1's other triggers until that one with the longer wait is done?

Attachments:

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jun 28 2014, 4:55 pm by KoKo_PiDeRaS.

That's correct: "at most" misses any units inside other units. It also counts incomplete buildings, while "exactly" and "at least" don't.


I think the message that's trying to be conveyed is "it doesn't matter" because you should never use waits (outside of hyper triggers).

As others have linked, DCs are what people use to delay triggers. Not waits. Waits are flawed, prone to breaking, ineffective, and overall just very bad to use. DCs are the opposite of all those things: they are powerful and flexible and always work as intended.

Do not use waits as a delay. You should take 30 seconds to add hyper triggers to the map, and then never use another wait ever again.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jun 28 2014, 5:07 pm by Azrael.

i will avoid using waits to avoid blocks because i will lose track of the triggers in action anyway
another question i want to add to my previous post: see how player 1's units are black. how is this achievable? i tried changing the player colors in scm draft disabling "random player locations" which changes colors and still i got no effect of changing colors but i recall being able to change the player color a few years ago, not really sure what editor it was with though. plus, black is not even in the colors list. ???

http://www.staredit.net/starcraft/Recall_Animation

Highlight the player's color (like "Red") by clicking it directly. Then type in the number of the color you want to use.

The only color that's a solid black for all versions of Windows is 138.

wow i didnt know there were more than the listed colors, well gonna be testing them now.
wow, the recall script wasnt running when i last tried it, probably didnt make the arbiter owned by comp.
anyway, anyone have a clue about that feedback trick?

another question, as far as i know, you cannot create via triggers stacked buildings, right? can anyone suggest the best way to use a building without giving vision of the building to the player that owns it?

is it possible to detect a unit that is currently being produced for protoss and terran? obviously would work for zerg via eggs though it is probably difficult to detect which unit it is.

You can't directly create stacked buildings via triggers, but what you can do is have a stack of buildings on the part of the map that you want to create the stacked buildings, and when you create a building, all you do is remove one of those buildings from the stack, and then move the newly-created building to that location. So if you want to stack supply depots, you can have a stack of some building (let's say command center), and when you create a supply depot, all you do is remove one command center from that stack, and then move the supply depot to that location. If you want to stack like 5 buildings or something, you can have 5 command centers, and remove one for each building you want to stack. Here's a test map to show you what I mean.

EDIT: I just realized that instead of creating a building and moving it to that location, you can just create that building at that location after removing one of the previously stacked buildings. I've updated the map to illustrate this.

I'm not sure if there are other methods, but you could just tell the players to hotkey all their buildings in the beginning, and then remove their vision of them after a little while.

Probably with EUDs. But then again, that's the answer to everything.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 1 2014, 3:34 pm by Dem0n.

ok thanks to everyone for the help, i'm glad we covered some unclear topics and i was able to achieve the main objective i had here and learned a lot more useful tactics by the way. i'm on and off with starcraft so the game might be completely dead by the time i get back to working on this map but it will be with the pleasure that i know what i am doing and how to get there. thanks again, i'm happy to have received help from many of the notorious members of the site. i'll see you in another thread whenever i feel the need to discuss something else. have fun and keep brooding!