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Human Rights Violation Debate
Oct 19 2011, 2:30 am
By: TiKels  

Oct 19 2011, 2:30 am TiKels Post #1



Payne's Letter

Payne has instructed me to post a topic regarding an incident and to ask for insights and opinions.

Here's the story. Payne planned to work at ski-lifts during the winter to make some bank so he can survive his journey. He goes to a "job fair" or something (I have never heard of such things in capitalist america), and, as described, is denied due to having long hair.

This, of course, would mean payne would be forced to come back early (as in come back to SEN!) for the winter.

Is this immoral? If so, is any discrimination or selection acceptable? What about if two people have exactly identical resumes?

If not, (assuming at a certain point it is) at what point does it cross the line from being moral to immoral?

I think it's pretty immoral to do, but I can understand why someone would do it. It's really good for a business. With that said, the business-man inside of me :teach: wants me to say it's completely acceptable within reasonable bounds (aesthetics, personality, etc)...

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Oct 19 2011, 2:33 am by DevliN. Reason: Collapsed payne's letter. And removed the question about mi



"If a topic that clearly interest noone needs to be closed to underline the "we don't want this here" message, is up to debate."

-NudeRaider

Oct 19 2011, 2:46 am DevliN Post #2

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Not sure what morality has to do with this. Every job I've seen that deals with customer service has a set of dress/appearance guidelines. It's not like he's being rejected for race or religion, he's being turned away because he doesn't want to cut his hair. They don't have to hire him, he is voluntarily wanting to work for them and therefore has to play by their rules. If the employer requires something that the applicant can change but refuses to, then too bad for the applicant.

Quote
What about if two people have exactly identical resumes?
Then it makes it easy to choose the similarly qualified one that plays by their rules.



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

Oct 19 2011, 2:51 am TiKels Post #3



Quote from DevliN
Quote
What about if two people have exactly identical resumes?
Then it makes it easy to choose the similarly qualified one that plays by their rules.
What if it's not something required? What if the interviewer likes blonde-haired females and that gives the person the job? Is that wrong?



"If a topic that clearly interest noone needs to be closed to underline the "we don't want this here" message, is up to debate."

-NudeRaider

Oct 19 2011, 2:53 am Roy Post #4

An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death

Quote from TiKels
Is this immoral? If so, is any discrimination or selection acceptable?
Yes, it is wrong to discriminate against someone based on their appearance for a job that is not focused on it.

Of course "discrimination" is acceptable, if you're taking it from the broadest sense of the term:
Quote
Recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another.
The word itself is connected to the unjust or prejudicial treatment of a particular group, which is not acceptable.

Quote from TiKels
What about if two people have exactly identical resumes?
Obviously this is what interviews are for, in which the employer can evaluate the personality and character of the individual, as well as gain more information on them in general. I think your question is more oriented towards if two people seem to be equally qualified after the interview process. This happens on occasion, where a hiring company cannot decide between two candidates. You know what they do? They look them up on a networking site like Facebook and see which one appears more professional, which may be a sign of them being more reliable (e.g., one person's profile image may just be a professional portrait, while the other person's consists of him passed out on a pile of beer cans).

This whole process is based on discrimination, but it's on the content of a person's character.

Quote from TiKels
If not, (assuming at a certain point it is) at what point does it cross the line from being moral to immoral?
It is unjust to judge someone on appearance or personal beliefs, unless the job hinges on such things (e.g., being a model or a pastor respectively).

Quote from TiKels
What if it's not something required? What if the interviewer likes blonde-haired females and that gives the person the job? Is that wrong?
Yes. That is not pertaining to the job, and it is unfairly discriminating. Good luck proving that, though.




Oct 19 2011, 2:56 am TiKels Post #5



Quote from DevliN
If the employer requires something that the applicant can change but refuses to, then too bad for the applicant.
All of my employees have to have mandatory abortions now if they want to work for me. I will not hire any pregnant women because they are moody and can be upsetting to the work-place.

Just so you know, this is not the ONLY example you could come up with.



"If a topic that clearly interest noone needs to be closed to underline the "we don't want this here" message, is up to debate."

-NudeRaider

Oct 19 2011, 2:59 am DevliN Post #6

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Quote from TiKels
Quote from DevliN
Quote
What about if two people have exactly identical resumes?
Then it makes it easy to choose the similarly qualified one that plays by their rules.
What if it's not something required? What if the interviewer likes blonde-haired females and that gives the person the job? Is that wrong?
That seems like a different issue, then. That's about interviewer bias. Based on this letter, it seems like they are relying more on a policy of no long hair rather than the interviewer being biased.

Quote from TiKels
Quote from DevliN
If the employer requires something that the applicant can change but refuses to, then too bad for the applicant.
All of my employees have to have mandatory abortions now if they want to work for me. I will not hire any pregnant women because they are moody and can be upsetting to the work-place.
Wow, that would suck to be one of your employees then.



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

Oct 19 2011, 3:01 am TiKels Post #7



Brah I'm entertaining various thoughts so that this topic has more content, as well as for my own interests. It IS an entirely different issue, but it is still discussable.

It's illegal to discriminate against pregnant women, that's the point I'm making with that.
This looks like a valid source.



"If a topic that clearly interest noone needs to be closed to underline the "we don't want this here" message, is up to debate."

-NudeRaider

Oct 19 2011, 3:03 am DevliN Post #8

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Quote from TiKels
It's illegal do discriminate against pregnant women, that's the point I'm making with that.
But it isn't illegal to refuse to hire someone because of the length of their hair. That's the point I'm making. I don't see anything immoral about not hiring someone who doesn't abide by their dress code.



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

Oct 19 2011, 3:04 am Kaias Post #9



I don't know why people get so anal about what can and cannot be considered a factor in applying for jobs. A candidate that is willing to look more presentable has that advantage over someone who doesn't. I see no reason that marriage status, gender or disability should be off bounds either- why force companies to employ suboptimal candidates over some fear of being 'unfair'? If a company doesn't want to employ a man because he's tied down by a family that's fine by me. If a company wants to hire only attractive women (no men) to wait tables and operate their cashiers then why should we stop them? Attractive women are (probably) better for their business.

What do Human rights have to do with anything? You think you have a right to have companies forced to pretend you're a more qualified candidate than you really are? Or is it that you have a right to have people less qualified given greater consideration than yourself? This whole system of pretending everyone is equal (or rather equally qualified sans resume) is, respectfully, garbage.



None.

Oct 19 2011, 3:04 am Sacrieur Post #10

Still Napping

Still haven't figured out what "human rights" (or more properly, "person rights") are just yet. I'll get back to you when I figure them out.



None.

Oct 19 2011, 3:05 am TiKels Post #11



Quote
But it isn't illegal to refuse to hire someone because of the length of their hair.
Ahhh, but should it be?
Quote
If not, (assuming at a certain point it is) at what point does it cross the line from being moral to immoral?
Well, if forced abortions are not ok, but mandatory haircuts are, at what point can you no longer discriminate against an issue?



"If a topic that clearly interest noone needs to be closed to underline the "we don't want this here" message, is up to debate."

-NudeRaider

Oct 19 2011, 3:06 am DevliN Post #12

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Quote from TiKels
Ahhh, but should it be?
Quote
If not, (assuming at a certain point it is) at what point does it cross the line from being moral to immoral?
Well, if forced abortions are not ok, but mandatory haircuts are, at what point can you no longer discriminate against an issue?
Cutting hair is not equivalent to killing a fetus (supposing you're a pro-lifer).

I don't see what the issue with cutting his hair is. If he doesn't want to, he can find another job. My point regarding not being able to get hired for things you can control is just that if there is a dress code, then you are expected to follow it. It is not illegal because it doesn't have to be. Everyone can dress a certain way to get a job and maintain that job, or they look somewhere else.

So here's a basic Wikipedia definition of Human Rights: Human rights are "basic rights and freedoms that all people are entitled to regardless of nationality, sex, national or ethnic origin, race, religion, language, or other status."
He is not being rejected for any of those. As far as I know, it is illegal to refuse to hire someone based on any of those. Hairstyling is not some human right that needs to be protected by law.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Oct 19 2011, 3:11 am by DevliN.



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

Oct 19 2011, 3:10 am TiKels Post #13



Abortions are still legal in the United States.

Let's say that they are not equivalent, as you say, then you make the distinction that certain characteristics are "okay" to discriminate prospective employees on. Who or what determines this?

Although it seems obvious, who is to say that cutting ones hair, a personal choice, is any different from not getting an abortion? I also used this example because it amused me a lot.

Kaias appeals to my business-man side very well.

STOP EDITING SO MUCH DEVLIN :P... We both are, I know.

Edit: Devlin, those aren't the rights you are entitled to. Reread it. It says you are entitled to rights no matter what gender (nationality, etc) you are. No rights are listed there.



"If a topic that clearly interest noone needs to be closed to underline the "we don't want this here" message, is up to debate."

-NudeRaider

Oct 19 2011, 3:14 am DevliN Post #14

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Quote from TiKels
Abortions are still legal in the United States.
And? Not sure what your point is here. Abortion is a moral debate for a different topic. I appreciate that you're looking for extremes to counter the semantics of that one sentence, but it's beside the point.

Quote from TiKels
Edit: Devlin, those aren't the rights you are entitled to. Reread it.
My point was that you can't be refused a job based on those things. Reread what I posted. This topic is supposedly about human rights violations, but payne refusing to get a haircut for a job is not a human right violation.



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

Oct 19 2011, 3:22 am TiKels Post #15



Quote
Edit: Devlin, those aren't the rights you are entitled to. Reread it. It says you are entitled to rights no matter what gender (nationality, etc) you are. No rights are listed there.
Quote
"basic rights and freedoms that all people are entitled to regardless of nationality, sex, national or ethnic origin, race, religion, language, or other status."
The emboldened text references the idea that the following objects (nationality, sex, ethnic origin) are characteristics that can change in a person and they will still be a person who has human rights. NOT examples of rights that all humans are entitled to. I could say, for example, this:
Quote
freedom of expression is a basic right and freedom that all people are entitled to regardless of nationality, sex, national or ethnic origin, race, religion, language, or other status
which indicates that "freedom of expression" is an unalienable right.

The point I am making is that one of three things is a logical conclusion:

1. We should not discriminate on any basis at all (abortions, haircuts, any expression at all.) Whether they are changeable statistics or unchangeable things is another issue.

2. No status is exempt from discrimination. IE: I should be allowed to not hire pregnant women

3. There are certain characteristics that are ok to discriminate upon, while others objectively aren't. This one is sooo subjective, even though I wrote the word "objective" in there.



"If a topic that clearly interest noone needs to be closed to underline the "we don't want this here" message, is up to debate."

-NudeRaider

Oct 19 2011, 5:21 am BiOAtK Post #16



I think the issue isn't whether the employer can issue a dress code disallowing long hair, but rather that they can make a dress code separately for men and women.
For example, say a woman wanted to wear an acceptably long and professional dress. If a transexual/CD male wanted to wear this dress, why couldn't he?
If someone chooses to do something that's okay for the other gender to do, then I think they shouldn't be able to discriminate based on that.



None.

Oct 19 2011, 5:36 am Lanthanide Post #17



Employment is not a human right.

Companies have the right to set dress codes, codes of conduct and procedures in place for whatever they see fit.

I posted in the Payne's Journey thread, this isn't going to go anywhere. The company is not discriminating based on him being a Male (a protected class), they're discriminating based on him being a Male With Long Hair, which is not a protected class.



None.

Oct 19 2011, 6:52 am DevliN Post #18

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Quote from Lanthanide
Employment is not a human right.

Companies have the right to set dress codes, codes of conduct and procedures in place for whatever they see fit.

I posted in the Payne's Journey thread, this isn't going to go anywhere. The company is not discriminating based on him being a Male (a protected class), they're discriminating based on him being a Male With Long Hair, which is not a protected class.
You have so eloquently stated what I've been trying to say this whole time. Thank you. :)



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

Oct 20 2011, 12:43 am Fire_Kame Post #19

wth is starcraft

Quote from DevliN
Quote from Lanthanide
Employment is not a human right.

Companies have the right to set dress codes, codes of conduct and procedures in place for whatever they see fit.

I posted in the Payne's Journey thread, this isn't going to go anywhere. The company is not discriminating based on him being a Male (a protected class), they're discriminating based on him being a Male With Long Hair, which is not a protected class.
You have so eloquently stated what I've been trying to say this whole time. Thank you. :)
I think that I'm gaining a little more respect for you, Lanthanide...




Oct 20 2011, 12:55 am Lanthanide Post #20



Quote from Fire_Kame
I think that I'm gaining a little more respect for you, Lanthanide...
I think your problem is that you mis-read what I said about you sharing your story and that somehow I had changed my mind because I had sympathy for you, or something.

My point was that you are advocating political decisions that will demonstrably harm yourself/your family in terms of cutting off government funding that you depend on and you're fully aware of that and still support that policy because you think it's the best thing to do for the country.

That is in contrast to people who support policies that will directly harm them but they're too stupid to know it (and buy into republican lies), or people who support policies that will directly benefit them and they don't care (or choose not to believe) that it will harm anyone else (like most wealthy republicans).

I don't agree with your political views, but the fact that you have demonstrated that you know they will cause you pain in the short and medium term means your opinion can't simply be written off as being self-serving and greedy like I believe most peoples are when it comes to politics (whether they're on the left or the right of the spectrum).



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