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Aftermath of Osama Bin Laden's death
May 2 2011, 8:37 pm
By: MillenniumArmy
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May 5 2011, 2:46 am DevliN Post #81

OVERWATCH STATUS GO

Quote from Tempz
They did the same thing with Hitlers bunker to prevent some sort of Neo Nazism, but i did some research. I found the latest videos that Osama was in he had a stroke (his voice is very weak and 1 of his arms isn't moving) and this means he had a stroke. Meaning he could of died years ago, furthermore his death could of easily been faked since it was never exhumed and was supposedly "buried at sea".
I don't see what having a stroke has to do with him being dead already. Kirk Douglas had a stroke in 1996 and he's still kicking.

Quote from Tempz
Edit : why is this in ld?
Read the first post.



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May 5 2011, 2:48 am Kaias Post #82



Quote from Tempz
They did the same thing with Hitlers bunker to prevent some sort of Neo Nazism, but i did some research. I found the latest videos that Osama was in he had a stroke (his voice is very weak and 1 of his arms isn't moving) and this means he had a stroke. Meaning he could of died years ago, furthermore his death could of easily been faked since it was never exhumed and was supposedly "buried at sea".

Edit : why is this in ld?
I also think the US government not releasing photos of his dead body was the right call, so as to not figuratively parade his corpse like some sort of trophy. Photos can be faked, and as such the people who cry conspiracy likely would've even if photos were released.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 11 2011, 9:03 pm by CecilSunkure. Reason: Removed unnecessary comment.



None.

May 5 2011, 3:31 am CaptainWill Post #83



If Osama had had to stand trial a lot of unpleasant things would come out. Evidence from Guantanamo Bay would have to be used and I can't imagine, due to the massive public interest, that the trial would be private or in front of a military court.



None.

May 5 2011, 3:43 am DevliN Post #84

OVERWATCH STATUS GO

Quote from Kaias
I also think the US government not releasing photos of his dead body was the right call, so as to not figuratively parade his corpse like some sort of trophy. Photos can be faked, and as such the people who cry conspiracy likely would've even if photos were released.
I agree completely. Its sad that people are already crying conspiracy over the one shopped photo that was passed around as being legitimate. :facepalm:



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My Overwatch addiction.

May 5 2011, 3:53 am Lanthanide Post #85



Quote from Kaias
I also think the US government not releasing photos of his dead body was the right call, so as to not figuratively parade his corpse like some sort of trophy. Photos can be faked, and as such the people who cry conspiracy likely would've even if photos were released.
I think not releasing the photos now is definitely a good call. But I also think the white house should state that the photos will be released in the future, and they should give some sort of time line. They could be very vague - "sometime this year or next", or more specific "4th quarter" or "September", or give a specific date. But I definitely think they should give a time line for them. Or even just say "they will be released, but likely not within the next 3 years".



None.

May 5 2011, 4:14 am Kaias Post #86



Quote from Lanthanide
Quote from Kaias
I also think the US government not releasing photos of his dead body was the right call, so as to not figuratively parade his corpse like some sort of trophy. Photos can be faked, and as such the people who cry conspiracy likely would've even if photos were released.
I think not releasing the photos now is definitely a good call. But I also think the white house should state that the photos will be released in the future, and they should give some sort of time line. They could be very vague - "sometime this year or next", or more specific "4th quarter" or "September", or give a specific date. But I definitely think they should give a time line for them. Or even just say "they will be released, but likely not within the next 3 years".
Definitely. They should be released eventually, like you say, and it'd probably be in their best interest to make that clear.



None.

May 5 2011, 4:32 am Tempz Post #87



Kaias you are open to your opinion and I understand how you would react thinking my statement "release images of his body" was stupid. But there is no proof of his death; the media is saying different stories, it was said that he used his wife as a human shield then they changed it to little girl, then they said there was nobody with him. Releasing proof of the body, now saying that i don't regret as they did the same thing with Hitler just to prove hes dead (its a pretty rare video though trying to find it to post on sen)

Collapse Box


@Kaias
I suppose i wasn't clear on my statement, I understand that the public would freak and i understand that(which is what i left out). At the same time i think that the people need proof at least at a later time to definitively know hes really dead.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on May 5 2011, 4:41 am by Tempz.



None.

May 5 2011, 5:25 am DevliN Post #88

OVERWATCH STATUS GO

Quote from Tempz
Collapse Box
Hence why I said that three posts above yours.



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My Overwatch addiction.

May 5 2011, 5:33 am Decency Post #89



http://www.reuters.com/subjects/bin-laden-compound

I simply posted a link without any description or anything, which is both spammy and non-contributive, so I got a severity!

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 9 2011, 6:00 pm by CecilSunkure. Reason: Posted link w/o description.



None.

May 5 2011, 5:39 am Lanthanide Post #90



Quote from Tempz
But there is no proof of his death
He was shot in the head. So his body is not really recognisable as him anyway. Therefore a photo is not going to be any kind of "proof" at all.

Also, a guy twittered about the raid as it was happening live. So the raid itself definitely did take place where they said it took place. Maybe they didn't actually kill Osama but do have him imprisoned somewhere and they're torturing him. Or maybe they turned up at the compound and he wasn't there and they're just making it up that they killed him (in which case all he has to do to embarrass the US is go on television).

Either way, the government releasing a photo of a shot-up muslim body isn't sufficient for "proof". The only other eye-witnesses are in Pakistani custody at the moment - but Pakistan hasn't come out and said that the US is lying either.



None.

May 5 2011, 5:46 am Roy Post #91

An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death

Quote from Tempz
But there is no proof of his death...
The United States government would never claim someone such as Bin Laden as dead unless they knew it to be true. Just take a step back and think about it. Osama has made several terrorism videos periodically to threaten his enemies. If we announced him dead, he could immediately respond to completely deface our government and tarnish what credibility it has, which would only strengthen the terrorist organization.

Quote from Kaias
... the people who cry conspiracy likely would've even if ___________.
This.




May 5 2011, 6:11 am Tempz Post #92



Hmm understandable... Roy i accept your logic :).



None.

May 5 2011, 6:36 pm Fire_Kame Post #93

wth is starcraft

Quote from Kaias
Quote from Lanthanide
Quote from Kaias
I also think the US government not releasing photos of his dead body was the right call, so as to not figuratively parade his corpse like some sort of trophy. Photos can be faked, and as such the people who cry conspiracy likely would've even if photos were released.
I think not releasing the photos now is definitely a good call. But I also think the white house should state that the photos will be released in the future, and they should give some sort of time line. They could be very vague - "sometime this year or next", or more specific "4th quarter" or "September", or give a specific date. But I definitely think they should give a time line for them. Or even just say "they will be released, but likely not within the next 3 years".
Definitely. They should be released eventually, like you say, and it'd probably be in their best interest to make that clear.

"Eventually" for the US government is like...20 years.

Other than proving the naysayers wrong, what good would it do to release it very fast? Hell, we all watched the trade center fall (until I went to school and they wouldn't tell us anything), but people still are convinced it was an inside job.




May 6 2011, 2:22 am Apos Post #94

I order you to forgive yourself!

Quote from He won
In The Looming Tower, the Pulitzer-winning history of al-Qaeda and the road to 9/11, author Lawrence Wright lays out how Osama bin Laden’s motivation for the attacks that he planned in the 1990s, and then the September 11 attacks, was to draw the U.S. and the West into a prolonged war—an actual war in Afghanistan, and a broader global war with Islam.

Osama got both. And we gave him a prolonged war in Iraq to boot. By the end of Obama’s first term, we’ll probably top 6,000 dead U.S. troops in those two wars, along with hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Afghans. The cost for both wars is also now well over $1 trillion.

We have also fundamentally altered who we are. A partial, off-the-top-of-my-head list of how we’ve changed since September 11 . . .
  • We’ve sent terrorist suspects to “black sites” to be detained without trial and tortured.

  • We’ve turned terrorist suspects over to other regimes, knowing that they’d be tortured.

  • In those cases when our government later learned it got the wrong guy, federal officials not only refused to apologize or compensate him, they went to court to argue he should be barred from using our courts to seek justice, and that the details of his abduction, torture, and detainment should be kept secret.

  • We’ve abducted and imprisoned dozens, perhaps hundreds of men in Guantanamo who turned out to have been innocent. Again, the government felt no obligation to do right by them.

  • The government launched a multimillion dollar ad campaign implying that people who smoke marijuana are complicit in the murder of nearly 3,000 of their fellow
    citizens.

  • The government illegally spied and eavesdropped on thousands of American citizens.

  • Presidents from both of the two major political parties have claimed the power to detain suspected terrorists and hold them indefinitely without trial, based solely on the president’s designation of them as an “enemy combatant,” essentially making the president prosecutor, judge, and jury. (I’d also argue that the treatment of someone like Bradley Manning wouldn’t have been tolerated before September 11.)

  • The current president has also claimed the power to execute U.S. citizens, off the battlefield, without a trial, and to prevent anyone from knowing about it after the fact.

  • The Congress approved, the president signed, and the U.S. Supreme Court upheld a broadly written law making it a crime to advocate for any organization the government deems sympathetic to terrorism. This includes challenging the “terrorist” designation in the first place.

  • Flying in America now means enduring a humiliating and hassling ritual that does little if anything to actually make flying any safer. Every time the government fails to catch an attempt at terrorism, it punishes the public for its failure by adding to the ritual.

  • American Muslims, a heartening story of success and assimilation, are now harassed and denigrated for merely trying to build houses of worship.

  • Without a warrant, the government can search and seize indefinitely the laptops and other personal electronic devices of anyone entering the country.

  • The Department of Homeland Security now gives terrorism-fighting grants for local police departments across the country to purchase military equipment, such as armored personnel carriers, which is then used against U.S. citizens, mostly to serve drug warrants.

I’m relieved that bin Laden is dead. And the Navy SEALs who carried out the harrowing raid that ended his life have my respect and admiration. And for all the massive waste and abuse our government has perpetrated in the name of fighting terrorism over the last decade, there’s something satisfying in knowing that he was killed in a limited, targeted operation based on specific intelligence.

But because of the actions of one guy, we allowed all the bullet points above to happen. That we managed to kill him a decade after the September 11 attacks is symbolically important, but hardly seems worth the celebrations we saw across the country last night. There was something unsettling about watching giddy crowds bounce around beach balls and climb telephone polls last night, as if they were in the lawn seats at a rock festival. Solemn and somber appreciation that an evil man is gone seemed like the more appropriate reaction.

Yes, bin Laden the man is dead. But he achieved all he set out to achieve, and a hell of a lot more. He forever changed who we are as a country, and for the worse. Mostly because we let him. That isn’t something a special ops team can fix.





May 6 2011, 2:47 am Vrael Post #95



Quote from Apos
Quote from He won
In The Looming Tower, the Pulitzer-winning history of al-Qaeda and the road to 9/11, author Lawrence Wright lays out how Osama bin Laden’s motivation for the attacks that he planned in the 1990s, and then the September 11 attacks, was to draw the U.S. and the West into a prolonged war—an actual war in Afghanistan, and a broader global war with Islam.

Osama got both. And we gave him a prolonged war in Iraq to boot. By the end of Obama’s first term, we’ll probably top 6,000 dead U.S. troops in those two wars, along with hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Afghans. The cost for both wars is also now well over $1 trillion.

We have also fundamentally altered who we are. A partial, off-the-top-of-my-head list of how we’ve changed since September 11 . . .
  • We’ve sent terrorist suspects to “black sites” to be detained without trial and tortured.

  • We’ve turned terrorist suspects over to other regimes, knowing that they’d be tortured.

  • In those cases when our government later learned it got the wrong guy, federal officials not only refused to apologize or compensate him, they went to court to argue he should be barred from using our courts to seek justice, and that the details of his abduction, torture, and detainment should be kept secret.

  • We’ve abducted and imprisoned dozens, perhaps hundreds of men in Guantanamo who turned out to have been innocent. Again, the government felt no obligation to do right by them.

  • The government launched a multimillion dollar ad campaign implying that people who smoke marijuana are complicit in the murder of nearly 3,000 of their fellow
    citizens.

  • The government illegally spied and eavesdropped on thousands of American citizens.

  • Presidents from both of the two major political parties have claimed the power to detain suspected terrorists and hold them indefinitely without trial, based solely on the president’s designation of them as an “enemy combatant,” essentially making the president prosecutor, judge, and jury. (I’d also argue that the treatment of someone like Bradley Manning wouldn’t have been tolerated before September 11.)

  • The current president has also claimed the power to execute U.S. citizens, off the battlefield, without a trial, and to prevent anyone from knowing about it after the fact.

  • The Congress approved, the president signed, and the U.S. Supreme Court upheld a broadly written law making it a crime to advocate for any organization the government deems sympathetic to terrorism. This includes challenging the “terrorist” designation in the first place.

  • Flying in America now means enduring a humiliating and hassling ritual that does little if anything to actually make flying any safer. Every time the government fails to catch an attempt at terrorism, it punishes the public for its failure by adding to the ritual.

  • American Muslims, a heartening story of success and assimilation, are now harassed and denigrated for merely trying to build houses of worship.

  • Without a warrant, the government can search and seize indefinitely the laptops and other personal electronic devices of anyone entering the country.

  • The Department of Homeland Security now gives terrorism-fighting grants for local police departments across the country to purchase military equipment, such as armored personnel carriers, which is then used against U.S. citizens, mostly to serve drug warrants.

I’m relieved that bin Laden is dead. And the Navy SEALs who carried out the harrowing raid that ended his life have my respect and admiration. And for all the massive waste and abuse our government has perpetrated in the name of fighting terrorism over the last decade, there’s something satisfying in knowing that he was killed in a limited, targeted operation based on specific intelligence.

But because of the actions of one guy, we allowed all the bullet points above to happen. That we managed to kill him a decade after the September 11 attacks is symbolically important, but hardly seems worth the celebrations we saw across the country last night. There was something unsettling about watching giddy crowds bounce around beach balls and climb telephone polls last night, as if they were in the lawn seats at a rock festival. Solemn and somber appreciation that an evil man is gone seemed like the more appropriate reaction.

Yes, bin Laden the man is dead. But he achieved all he set out to achieve, and a hell of a lot more. He forever changed who we are as a country, and for the worse. Mostly because we let him. That isn’t something a special ops team can fix.
Uhh, I would argue that the majority of those things aren't changes. They're how we were pre-9/11 anyway.



None.

May 6 2011, 4:30 am CaptainWill Post #96



Bin Laden's stated aim was to have an Arab Palestine. It was the reason he gave after 9/11 (something like "We have done this because the USA supports Israel"), but it was cut from US broadcasts. In fact, US support for Israel seems to be the main grievance of Muslim terrorists - it's mainly to do with land and not religion.



None.

May 11 2011, 7:23 pm Tempz Post #97



I think that some sort of "Neo Terrorism" will arise because he was killed.

The same thing happened to Hitler in "Neo Fascism" however it could be a infection that will heal over time like communism (which on lasted for about 100 years (minus 4 nations).

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 11 2011, 8:37 pm by Tempz.



None.

May 11 2011, 7:44 pm DevliN Post #98

OVERWATCH STATUS GO

Quote from Tempz
The same thing happened to Hitler in "Neo Fascism" however it could be a infection that will heal over time like communism (which on lasted for about 100 years (minus 4 nations).
I don't really understand this point. People still use "communist" or "socialist" like its a derogatory term. We may not have McCarthy-era communist witch hunts anymore, but there is still quite a bit of prejudice. :/



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May 11 2011, 8:38 pm Tempz Post #99



I meant to say that his death may fuel another person to take his place.



None.

May 11 2011, 8:47 pm DevliN Post #100

OVERWATCH STATUS GO

Yes, I understand that as I have said that before, along with other people, in this thread. I'm referring to the "heal over time like communism" comment.



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