The prices are much less wacky and more attainable now, which seems much more reasonable. Now if only name colour wasn't so pricey, we'd be in heaven! Now all we need are some more epic games for people to gamble way their money (as a way to suppress the amount of minerals flowing in the SEN economy) and we'll be fine and dandy!

I'd make limits of +/- 25% of the average.
Each store update add or subtract a random percentage of 1-10% of the current price.
Then check if price is now out of bounds. If it is multiply the former percentage by -2 and add it again - voilá no more out of bounds.

Then you have steadily changing prices, kinda like stocks. You can always watch the price trend and then gamble when you think it'll have reached its lowest point.
You could even take it a step up and make the change in price slowly changing rather than completely random. Like when it was -10% before it can only go lower by 5-10%. If the change was -3% before the new change could be anything between -8% and +2%. To make it a little more predictable and thus making gambling more interesting. Optional though.

Again, Nude, you're speaking from the point of view of someone who already has everything. If you didn't have a signature, title, colored name, extra PM space, and all the extra amenities you purchased under the previous mineral system — would you still support a dynamic price system?

(Not to mention these arguments are only valid for a working mineral system. Static prices are bug-free; dynamic prices are not, as you can clearly see. Until everything is fixed and we can safely add more features to a non-broken SEN, static prices are the answer.)

Hard to screw up my suggestion so coding difficulty is no argument here. Bugs isn't (hasn't been) the problem, but a modifier added to the price which was intended. It was stupid, but not buggy. Static prices need to be coded too, so why not do it right the first time? (second actually, but at least not 3rd time)

Why are you bringing back your old arguments? I already said that I want my items removed. I also said that I earned my items in a dynamic mineral system and I liked it.
And I already said that the dynamic system is better for the "poor" because you buy when prices are cheap. To clarify: I don't support inflating the average price by a random amount (current). I support prices that can be higher than the average but also can be cheaper.

And yes I still support seeing minerals as a game and not as a oh-so-serious currency. Make it exciting please.

Btw. I'm slightly insulted that you think my opinion reflects selfishness.

*added clarification to 2nd paragraph*

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Sep 28 2010, 2:14 am by NudeRaider.

Your suggestion is inherently "more complex" than the current system, even though it is simple to implement. Look at the current system. It took forever to fix a trivial glitch. This betrays how convoluted and terrible the dynamic price system code must have been, and it was a very, very simple system that is "hard to screw up".

I do not see you disabling your signature and vowing to not re-enable them until you legitimately earn the minerals. (Not that I expect you to; it would be a ludicrous demand, even if it matches your adamant claims.) The "dynamic" mineral system you mentioned assigned a price of -1 to everything as far as I was informed, so I can only trust your claim that you earned them legitimately.

I already told you. This is like saying "deflation is good for the poor". NO.

People will not have any incentive to buy something if they think they can get it cheaper the next day. In the real world, this creates economic disasters. For SEN, this analogous situation makes people not want to purchase anything, lest they be "cheated" of minerals. Dynamic system is in no way good for the "poor". It is better for people who F5 the SEN Store 24/7 to buy an item when it restocks. It also necessarily makes the "rich" very angry if the item they just purchased dropped 200 minerals in price a while afterwards, and makes the poor very annoyed when the price goes up after they finally accumulate enough minerals to match the price tag of that item several days ago.

Try to think of it this way: it is not fluctuating between a "minimum" and "maximum" with an average price. It is set at a "minimum" price with a random additional charge you must pay. Is there any reason to pay this extra charge? Does charging this extra quantity help SEN in any way?

The internet is srs bsns. If minerals were necessary for frivolous things like name color/shoutbox color I'm sure your argument would work, but right now they are needed for essential things like signatures/titles/avatar space.

It's just the trend that everyone opposing this static system seems to fall under the category of "member who has expensive mineral items". You are speaking from the POV of one of those people. Do you deny that you own these items and are using them right now? Of course you cannot. I'm offended that you would take the perfectly neutral statement as insult.

I wouldn't even bother answering if you wouldn't make me look like a selfish idiot. You assume a lot to make your claims look legitimate. For the sake of fruitful discussion I implore you to take a little distance. Right now it seems to me you're just trying to prove a point ignoring/misunderstanding much of what I say.
I can accept that you have a different opinion but you're publicly attacking my intentions, which I cannot accept. You are not neutral as you claim, even if you intend to be because you're assigning negative attributes towards me, which you see as fact, when they are not. Let me try to clear up some of the misunderstandings.

I'll spell it out for you: The old store prices WERE NOT BUGGED. Ask Devourer, he WANTED them to be that high. He said that several times already.
I hope you're not accusing us of lying just to prove a point here.

Adding a random number to another and checking a range are SUPER SIMPLE programming constructs, in fact, that's pretty much the first thing you learn in any programming language. Except the randomization, but the randomization ALREADY WORKS.
Besides, as already said, he just added a random number to the average. How's that convoluted?! Please stop ignoring the facts I present.
But you're right if you say the old system was terrible. Everyone thought so. However I have to assume Devourer liked it which was the reason he didn't change it.
I know first hand he didn't even try a fix. So don't play the "took forever to fix" card.

Ah finally a response to my earlier statements I can react to.

You are misinformed. There were incidents when the prices went ridiculously low, even negative, but these were not the norm. Most of the time they were around the average. I never bought an item even close to negative minerals, simply because I never saw one myself.
I didn't say I like that I could cheat the old mineral system, I said I earned each of my items (previous page). I meant to imply that I helped SEN for minerals and then invested them in items of reasonable price.
If you'd know me a little you'd know that I very much value fair play which is the reason I publicly demand that everyone (not just me!) is stripped of his old items for a fresh start. Of course I won't disable what I have when admins ignore me.

I can accept this opinion though I do not agree.
I find it hard to believe that everyone is driven by jealousy and morbid stinginess. While this may be true for some I certainly hope that there's people on SEN that would just be happy to get an item cheaper than normal without having the need to buy it at the absolute minimum. Past experience is on my side. People still bought items, even if more expensive than -1 minerals.
Personally I'd congratulate everyone who got an item 50 minerals cheaper than me and would show him my items I got cheaper than him. Friendly competition, you know.

Yes, time. The longer you're willing to wait the better your chances to get as close to the minimum as possible. I'd assume most people will find a balance between greed and patience. Part of the game I'd say.

Hard to answer since I see variable prices as a chance to get the item cheaper and not as a problem that makes my items needlessly expensive.
However I'd say it wouldn't change SENs economy by much (neither help nor be detrimental) since the items will still be sold reasonably close to the intended average.

sigs are cheap
titles are by no means essential assuming you buy the sig first, since you can add text there too
avatar space is not even possible on other sites, definitely not essential
Also don't ignore another suggestion of mine: The return of 'disable fun'. For everyone who thinks "Internet is srs bsns".
Although I'll admit that it would require coding and things could go wrong and it won't be implemented right away.

At this point I want to repeat that my suggestions go along with another very important suggestion of mine: Starting capital. This would allow you to instantly buy a signature or another cheap item. It seems you ignored that so far. The code for it is already done btw.

However all of this has no effect on the static vs. dynamic discussion since you'd have to buy these items either way.

Again assuming here. I'm not following a trend. I can perfectly understand your anger, because I myself was upset by the new mineral system. Empathy / sense of justice doesn't require that you're in the situation yourself. Thus if I have these items or not is irrelevant.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Sep 28 2010, 1:49 pm by NudeRaider.

Quote from NudeRaider

Yes, time. The longer you're willing to wait the better your chances to get as close to the minimum as possible. I'd assume most people will find a balance between greed and patience. Part of the game I'd say.

Ahem...my formula method

By the way, I'm just wondering...why does it seem like the people who win the raffle already have more minerals than others who play? The win list is dominated by Devlin, Farty, and payne, with a few scatterings of others winning the occasional 50 mineral equivalent.

And Aristo, I don't even know what you're arguing about. You look more like someone who wants one thing, but argues for an all-or-nothing approach. I don't think Nude and I have ever agreed on much (other than hypertriggers running approximately 11.904761... times per second), but for now I'm going to agree with him. Nude is saying that he supports reduced prices, that go even lower over a period of time, and you bash him for it.

Also, please stop being so bullheaded in the shoutbox. You do not need to prove you're right on every single matter in which it sparks your interest to do so.

I want static prices. Reduced prices are not equivalent to static prices.

You also do not need to resort to ad hominem if you cannot form a coherent counterargument. Do you find it so difficult to accept that some people on the internet might disagree with your point of view? Maybe you're wrong. Maybe they're wrong. Don't storm off every time that happens, however.

I disagree with Aristocrat.

I agree with Nuderaider.
I want a signature enabler to be worth 131-219 minerals randomized with equal distribution. It would be nice if it decreased in value every day, but that doesn't matter much.

Probably because the people with more minerals can afford to play every time the raffle resets? Of the past 50 winners, payne has won 16, I have won 7, and FaRTy has won 4. I only really see 4 "50 mineral equivalent" wins, 3 by payne and 1 by Cecil. All 4 of those wins were simply won because no one else bought tickets.

Store prices currently fluctuate a little bit with supply and demand.

The thing about the previous prices was that there were practically ALWAYS double the value stated. They were not even remotely close to the average at anytime. Clearly the previous average contradicts the stated average. So when a price is stated at, let's say, 175, we clearly saw that every single time the price WILL be above 300. This obviously is a price too high for any average member to gain over a short time at SEN, which may discourage them from staying with the community. I know that originally the high price was intended, but with utmost respect, I feel Devourer was too cautious in creating a non-exploitable mineral system. Prices that never go below the average do not represent the stated value. This leads me to the issue I'm addressing: The debate between dynamic and fixed prices.

The problem with the prices before was that it was NOT dynamic. By dynamic, I visualize a fluctuating price that is within 25% of the average, both greater and lesser. Inasmuch, the prices were 90%-100% greater. This leads to people wanting fixed prices instead of the 90%-100% dynamic prices since they feel it will be more manageable as a lower price. If we were to create dynamic prices that actually has its ups and downs, more people would be more sympathetic toward this system. Taking a risk and buying an item 21% lesser and finding out the next day the price is drastically different allows a stock market feel to the store, which makes it much much more exciting than a fixed price. Personally I support the dynamic prices if it actually followed through as a 0-25% increase AND decrease in its part, not a +90%-100% turnoff.

tl;dr


In a nutshell: I liek dynamic prices if it was closer to the average.
Fixed prices are a bit boring.

I agree.

My thought exactly.

I just wonder why you voted static then.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Sep 29 2010, 12:08 am by NudeRaider.

i was following my actions as said in the 2nd quote I gave it some thought and switched to Dynamic support.

When gambling, the house always wins. Why? Because the house statistically has a better chance of winning, and has essentially unlimited money. I would have won more had I not run out of money. As such, I've only bought a few raffle tickets. Likewise I have little to show for it. Payne, farty, and devlin have all been buying much more raffle tickets, and thus, they win more often. They also actually have money to start with.

The whole reason people have name colors is because they stuck with the raffle and games and got a crapload of minerals.

And they were also around in the short window when minerals actually existed and could be used to buy items.

Not entirely true. People like Moose, NudeRaider, ect, posted so frequently in various forums like UMS Assistance that they could rack up thousands of minerals just from posting.

I had a ton of posts and I borrowed heavily near the end from Farty and Kellimus to get my name color. I believe minerals were removed several days after, which was awesome.

That was when was the purpose of the site and mapping questions were always in season. It's difficult to earn mins now.


If everyone had a colored name, the item wouldn't have as much value won't it? If name color was something received from a default style of forum (i.e: sigs, avatar), it WOULD be low. This applies toward the expensive smiley as well. Not everyone can have that super rare card. As for the game issue, SEN has no economy afaik. Money is printed on the spot.

I suppose so, I just think 1500 is pretty hefty, only one person is close to that and that is payne because he's had a huge start on us. If our community for SCII ever gets off the ground very quickly and actually get people who are map-making, I can easily see people getting lots of minerals, but right now, the fastest way to get any minerals is raffles + magic boxes. (But not all of us like gambling!)