As you know, SC2 campaign (in comparison to any existing BW campaigns) has a lot of new features, but let focus on some of them:

1) Nonlinear campaign (you can choose a mission to play)
2) Permanent unit unlocking feature (at start of the campaign you dont have siege tanks, but when you unlocked them - you will have them in all next missions, and as you remember - missions are nonlinear, so you dont know, when user will want to finish the mission which unlocks tanks).
3) Permanent upgrades and special abilities (same as 2, but about upgrades), so you dont need to research them in each mission, wasting mineals and gas
4) Zerg and Toss researches (psi disruptor, hive mind emulator, etc)
5) Credits (you have permament money, called "credits", and if you have 10000 credits now - they will be transferred to the next mission)
6) Special briefings (during briefing you can interact with team, make upgrades, choose next mission and so on)


So - the main question of this topic: are this items 1-6, explained above, possible in BW?

I am not a modder, and dont know the possibilities of the modding, so here is my ideas, how this can be implemented without modding:

A) you can create 1000 maps, using all combinations of "unlocked units\unlocked upgrades\amount of credits", and move to correct map using "set next scenario" trigger
B) you can create a special maps as "briefing maps" where you can choose next mission, upgrade units and so on.
C) you can add special units (for example which shooting scarabs or infested terrans, like in my Z map), and add special buildings to the maps, where you can buy (for gas and minerals of course) this units using triggers like "if bring 1 probe and has 500 minerals - then create 1 hero". Also this is about "Zerg and Toss researches" - they can be implemented as triggered units or buildings.

As you see - a lot of disadvantages. Creating 1000 maps for each combination - is masochistic. But: is this possible with modding without this disadvantages? Which way is possible to automate this?

Post has been edited 5 time(s), last time on Aug 13 2011, 10:29 am by theleo_ua.

Short answer: It's not possible.

Long answer:
I'll give you a breakdown:
1) Nonlinear campaigns are not possible. You can set the next scenario with triggers, but you can't transfer any data to the next scenario, meaning that there's no way to know which missions are completed and which ones are not.
2) Not possible. Again, this is because you can't transfer data in between maps.
3) See above.
4) These might be possible. In order to achieve their full effect though, you need to write plugins for them.
5) See 3).
6) This isn't possible without doing a ridiculous amount of plugin work.

Technically, everything you say can be done with plugins. But unless you are a C++ god and have a few months of spare time on your hands, I wouldn't consider plugins to be a viable option for what you're trying to make.

Yes, but solution is "create different scenarios with all possible data combinations". The problem is - how to automate this, because create 1000 maps manually - very hard masochism.

This is the main problem, because all other problems are solvable I think.

Sorry what?

So you REALLY consider making hundreds of almost-the-same maps? :whatisthisIcan'teven:
Even if you do, there'd still be limits. For example, you won't be able to transfer the player's credits and upgrades to another map (unless you make a few thousand more), so you wouldn't be able to add optional objectives and collectible cash pickups for the players to earn more credits (unless you make a few tens of thousand more maps), and you'd have to have the player re-spend all their credits every time they play a new map (again, unless you make a few tens of thousands more maps).

Technically, you could branch off each map with like 3 other maps. If you complete the first map and then the next missions are nonlinear, you can create an "in between" map that serves the purpose of choosing a mission.* Then, if there are zerg/protoss research things, you could have multiple maps of the almost same map for that outcome (it wouldn't take thousands). Like if I collected 3/3 zerg research things, then I load a different map than I would for if I hadn't collected any. That next map will be another "in between" map where I can choose my unlockable unit. If I choose to unlock a tank or something, then the rest of campaign is played through the maps that have siege tank already researched. I'm not sure how upgrades would work though. You could branch them off like you would with unlockable units, but that would create far too many combinations between unlocked units/upgrades. It would take quite a few maps (again, not 1,000), but it wouldn't be hard because there'd be almost completely identical versions of the same map with very few things changed between them. And this doesn't even involve modding.

* Just read what xAngelSpiritx said. Not sure, but you may be able to branch off between multiple maps so that you never have the option of choosing a map that you've already beaten. Like, if I have to choose between missions 2 and 3, and I choose 2, I can load the mission two map that recognizes that missions 3 hasn't been played yet. Then when I beat mission 2, I load the "in between" map that still has mission 3 available. Still a lot of branching, but it's possible. :x

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 13 2011, 3:27 pm by Dem0nS1ayer.

I came here specifically to say this and then will vanish again. Write a plugin that can read DCs from a text file, and write them to the same.

I just planned out a hypothetical 8-mission campaign in which almost all the missions branch out, and I got to 31 "in between" maps. And that's not even counting unlocked units.

@Demon: You forgot credits. If the player can choose to buy multiple upgrades with credits instead of choosing a fixed amount of upgrades between maps, then you'd have to make a lot of maps to synchronize with all the possibilities Depending on the number of maps, upgrades and the ratios between the average amount of creds earned from missions and the average price of upgrades, the campaign can become super big ;o
Also, why even consider? I don't think people'd like to download a SC1 campaign that 1) is a pain to open in the custom maps menu, and 2) is about tens or hundreds of MBs

It wouldn't be hard to open in the menu. If you name all the actual missions with numbers and then save the "in between" maps with letters, the missions will show up first.

And... LOL@concern over hundred mb campaign. Ever played Vile Egression? One map is over 100 mbs. That's nothing.

They're actually about 300mb each. The mod is ~100mb.

I personally don't think that sc2 had a single new feature, but shoot.

Non-linear writing is overrated and sc2 did it in the poorest way possible. It is not necessary to be non-linear, and you can do this in BW anyway.
I think this is also overrated and unnecessary to make a good campaign, personally. It also leads to a lot of balancing cockadooky I don't think many people here are qualified to figure out.
You had to upgrade in every single sc2 mission. Researches were different, yes, but ultimately not a big difference.
Sounds like something you'd be doing with a plugin.
Sounds tacky.
Sounds like something you'd be doing with a plugin.


In short, yes they are possible. Are they necessary? Not in the slightest. They would also be a lot of work, the kind of work that an inexperienced modder should only consider going into after he knows how to make a good campaign without useless feature creep.

Thanks to all for the constructive answers/opinions.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadomasochism

I think his point was that the use of "very hard" doesn't make sense, or rather what does "very hard" masochism mean?

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 14 2011, 11:41 am by DevliN.

Easy masochism - create 10 "same" maps
Medium masochism - create 100 "same" maps
Hard masochism - create 1000 "same" maps
Very Hard masochism - create 10000 "same" maps
Elite masochism - create more than 10000 "same" maps

You're voting options suck. It's funny how if we vote to say we like your idea, that's it. But if it's negative, then we need to have words put into our mouths and have you decide why we think they're "bad ideas".

fixed

You could easily do it with plugins ... Using a plugin you could save a quick little file with the information in it, then at the start of the map edit upgrades, unit availability, etc. based on what is in the save file. What would be more difficult is allowing multiple saves.
For #6 you could just make a map with various Set Next Scenario actions to go to the different missions.. If you did the plugin as previously described, you could easily detect what missions you have done, what units are unlocked, what upgrades are researched, etc.

Use R.A.W.R