Debating and arguing are the same thing. They both use rhetoric -- which was invented by the greeks. This is what all arguements boil down to: how well you can use rhetoric to your advantage. Rhetoric includes pretty much everything about debating/arguing -- the fallacies, the tactics, the ethos, pathos, and so on.

So yes, I bought a book on debating, since that means arguing as well. But please, back on topic.

Not to mention thier love of thier fancy lead plumbing, lead preservatives, lead acetate, and various other lead uses that involved consuming it or things in contact with it!

AND homosexuals are usually depicted working at steel mills -- CONNECTION?

As George Carlin put it, "A lot of gay men stay in the closet because they're interested in fashion." A lot of people simply can't respect religious reasoning in issues today. Thankfully, sane people refuse to accept "god said it was so" as any sort of argument at all. I'm surprised (perhaps naively so) to see people still using religion to fuel their own bigotry on these forums. I've got a better question to ask than whether or not homosexuality is natural or a choice: who really gives a shit one way or another? As soon as you can prove to me that homosexuality harms you or anyone at all, then I will start listening to your side of the argument. That's what this thread is really about - is homosexuality moral? Who does it hurt? I can list a number of ways that being openly homosexual helps folks: gays and lesbians feel more acceptance if they aren't forced to cover up their feelings. Homosexuality is no more a choice than it is a choice for heterosexuals to desire the opposite gender. Thinking that homosexuals wake up in the morning, stretch up, and exclaim to the world, "I feel like being homosexual today!" is preposterous. Genetic predispositions and upbringings aside, I have little doubt that scientists and psychologists will write up a pretty reasonable explanation within the next few years.

well i think god may have alil gay in him as quoting the bible if that doesnt signify its natural to most of the religious people like falkoner(well maybe not mormons lol) then i dunno what would =P

What? How are you pulling gay out of that? I admit, it's a bit comical for him to say "and thou shalt see my back parts" but in Biblical language, it does not mean what it would mean in our day, it just means that he won't be facing you.

Total misinterpretation.

Church is not serious about his post.

I'm faithful, not necessarily religious (strange enough to say it, I've taken on rather mystical beliefs).

I am also bisexual, and I see absolutely no reason for there to be an Angry God who creates gay people than gets all pissed off and gives them AIDS and tells people to kill them.

But the key thing is this: It happens in nature all the time. It happens in nurturing all the time. It happens, whether you can admit it or not, no one is making it happen, there is no real science of a "gene" or a "hormone" or a "pre-birth event" that leads to it. It's just a part of life, and honestly, you only really spend 11 minutes on it, tops.

After that you're just getting bored.

Thank you. Totally agree with you man. This debate has missed the key issue, the morality of homosexuality. Nurture or nature, choice or no choice are totally irrelevant and redundant.

For example, whether you are born to like eating chocolate or you choose to eat chocolate is irrelevant really. What matters is its EFFECT on people. What we should be debating about are the repercussions/effects of a homosexual individual and its impact on themselves, society, and others. The cause does not matter unless you have identified and justified the effect of the "outcome".

im glad someone got that millennium is my man =). I dont really see how big an impact someone being gay would have other than offending people who dislike gays,maybe i few less kids born but we need more kids adopted anyways

And they seem to be more accepting of other people, including non-gays. I've had friends who are part of the gay community and you can talk about anything with them and not feel silly.

There was a study done that boys with 3 (or 4?) or more sisters were significantly more likely to realize their homosexuality.

I do not believe in homosexuality! Sexual relations should be between a Man and a Woman.

Thank you for this completely pointless post.
Care to elaborate on your opinions?

I am a Christian. And God says that in the Bible. I believe the Bible.

So your religion is automatically correct? That's very far from true.

I'm not a Christian, but the Bible wasn't written by "God"?

... I realize that you are 12 and have yet to realize that human's are flawed and that the Bible was written by said flawed people. We can therefor assume that the Bible itself is flawed, and thus, your perspective is flawed.

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how... under developed it is.

This assumes god intended man to be a moral being in the first place and that he cared that a couple of half wit ape like creatures (adam and eve) fucked the same sex when they were created. God only imposed such rules after it was too late to change human nature.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 10 2008, 2:43 am by A_of-s_t.

Well, if you don't believe in homosexuality, then what do you call it when two guys do each other?

Phear my awesome logic!


Anyways, I personally believe that the tendency towards homosexuality is genetic, though the decision on whether or not to act on it is purely personal (no duh) and if that is the case, we can derive that all homosexual relations are for the purposes of personal enjoyment (just like 99% of heterosexual relations) and should therefore be looked at in the same way. People enjoy it, it doesn't hurt anyone, and it's none of your business unless you're involved. Honestly, unless you're gonna go so far as to spurn using condoms, birth control, or having sex before marriage, then you've really got no right to call homosexuality immoral. For that matter, even if you do believe in all of that, you should keep your opinions to yourself, I'd even argue against it being morally acceptable to teach that stuff to your kids, but that's another debate entirely.