Oh, well in that case
I am also saying that something that can not be created now destroyed can only logically exist if it simply always was. If matter was created, it would not be natural and would require faith, at least more faith than to assume it simply always was(Occam's Razor). This is why I really didn't think you responded to KK.
I am not arguing that, and I don't think anyone else is. Again, I really think you should be asking why the matter seemingly arbitrarily changed it's state(from here you could argue that an outside force must have acted upon it).

Because right now it almost sounds like your saying that because we all know matter exists and that it can not be created or destroyed, then god must exist since he can not be created or destroyed. Or are you really just still talking about "something has to start from somewhere."

I find it strange that a man on a cross is a symbol of Christianity.

In the old days, those who the Roman Empire deemed bad were hung and flocked on a Wooden Cross, and left to die.
Why is it then, that the cross is an important part of Christianity?

The cross was not uncommon in the Roman Eras. So why is it so important now?
Why is a man strung on a Cross (Jesus), so important?

Jesus Christ died for our sins, which is like the foundation to our walk in Christianity.

Why must there be a starting point? Who says they 'came into existance'? As far as I can contemplate things were always there, and always will be there.
Which makes the human species an infinitely small and insignificant blip in the universe... but I'm sure everyone already knew that.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Feb 4 2009, 11:44 pm by FaRTy1billion.

There are too many religions for only one to be true, and we are only talking about the human's religion.
It's possible that Christianity is true, while it is also possible for Judiasm. It's even possible for a "council of Gods", but that contradicts with alot of monothesims.

Religion, to me, is fiction, fiction will strong themes and tells you how you should act, like your conscience.

Because i do not believe in any god doesn't means I do not care, i've been studying religions at school, and the cross was chosen as a symbol because it is the way the savior died to repent for our sins.

Actually, the deeper you go into a religion, the harder it is to believe.
Example: Jesus was born to save our souls from the sins we made -- This is plausible...
Jesus is the same person as god -- Yea... well...
Jesus was born from a virgin -- One of the things that makes all that unbelievable (yet it is not the only reason i am an atheist)
Jesus made a blind man see, and he ressurected when he died -- Another thing that makes this harder to believe...

Theese are just example of the impossible things that happens in this religion, correct me if I'm wrong, because my teacher actually told this to me. It makes sense and looks normal for anyone that believes in God, wich is okay, but i can't simply believe in any exploit Jesus made.

I never really studied the bible, but wasn't Jesus the son/prophet of God?

Jesus is the son of God. Jesus is also God in terms of Trinity, in which there is God, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus.

Indeed.

"Only in a universe governed by God can universal, immaterial, unchanging laws exist." Assumption. Why?

"Only in a universe governed by God can rational thinking be possible." Assumption. Why?

"We use rational thinking to prove things. Therefore... The Proof that God exists is that without Him you couldn't prove anything." Ow... brain...violated...

Isn't it a bit unfair that Humans, in specific Athiests have solve equations to life in order to be better then some supernatural being with magic powers? I mean come on the odds are slightly stacked. By the way it's only possible for all religions to be right if they stop being ignorant and accept they are all worshipping the same thing but through different beliefs. And for the record I was getting A* GCSE in religious education so i'm not particularly impressed ay anyone making that claim...

Lol, how do you strive to be better than something you don't believe in?

The problem with an "eternal universe" is very deep: As far as modern physics are generally concerned, matter/energy does not simply sit around. There is this very important mechanism called work. Now, I know you guys aren't scientists (or even greater apes), so lemme break it down for you: When matter/energy do basically ANYTHING, they are using up energy and converting it to heat (entropy).

Over a long enough time frame, granted that there is not some mechanism recycling this rising entropy, the universe CANNOT have had matter for an infinite time period. The way we generally understand the mechanics of our universe, we need a creation date, God or not. Please leave the fifth grade physics out of here.

This is the most well-engineered logical fallacity I've ever seen.

You actually assumed we were discussing an already expanded universe, and not a singularity?

What? Weren't we discussing both? And it's not "already expanded", it's "currently expanding". Whether or not this expansion can continuously increase maximum entropy is something of an unknown, though I would think it wouldn't. Granted, my knowledge of physics is limited to mostly non-mathematical, basic explanations, but I understand the concepts.

The current, standard model of the creation of universe is based around a singularity: the Big Bang. The Universe does not "just exist" under this model, we need to find out HOW it came about. Models like string theory (also called m-theory), imaginary space, and "the Big Squish" have about the same amount of evidence as God (in the strict sense of a creating force, not a molding force). They are purely theoretical models that rely on unobserved phenomenon, unfalsifiable claims, and some currently unmeasurable (and unobserved!) items.

God is generally considered a singularity, correct? As is the big bang? Was my argument too good or something? I see plenty of holes!

Post has been edited 6 time(s), last time on Feb 6 2009, 12:39 am by The Great Yam.