Staredit Network > Forums > Staredit Network > Topic: Protection vs Unprotection Discussion
Protection vs Unprotection Discussion
Sep 19 2007, 5:46 pm
By: mikelat
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Sep 23 2007, 6:33 pm Dapperdan Post #201



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lol hyprocrit, learn to put =shocko then you can scold him.

I wasn't even quoting shocko, and what devilesk said to. :-_-:

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Okay, I am going about this the wrong way. You seem to have made the mistake that map cracking gives anyone a choice. Protection is a choice, and unprotection's only purpose is to cancel out that choice.

That is not it's only purpose, if I'm not mistaken. As long as the rule stands to preserve the author's wishes (simply put), OSMap serves as a tool that can help people learn and allow people to edit's others maps to make them better. It also serves as an ability for mappers to bar noobs from making endless versions (rigged/with cheats/or not) of their map and ruining it's identity, and still allow it to be somewhat open source to the communities they feel they can trust it enough with. The bolded part is pretty much the key here. It is also a rule that can be enforced within the limits of this site, unwarranted editing/stealing/rigging of a map by someone here could certainly be reported and cause a probable ban of the rule breaker.

Other than that, there's no point for me to continue to make intrepretations of your quote anymore, nor of you to explain at this point (unless someone else asks you to). I think we have the idea now.



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Sep 23 2007, 6:42 pm l3lack-l3ahamut Post #202



As a mapping community we know who produces what maps via showcase and upload of the map. We can ridicule any who decide to break the mappers wish of not editing the map; or in the case that it may be edited, they must retain the original creators name in the map.

The reason we are in a community is for the greater interest of mapping which OSMAP helps to uphold by allowing beginners to view the triggers of a map. But another benefit to being a community is we have the power to control and/or condemn any who oppose the standard set by the community.

The only arguement that protection has is "Me, I, My, Mine, etc." which has no place in a cooperative community.



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Sep 23 2007, 6:56 pm Esponeo Post #203



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As long as the rule stands to preserve the author's wishes (simply put),
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It is also a rule that can be enforced within the limits of this site
Too bad only 0.01% (2000@SEN / 200000@BNET)* of people who play SC visit this website. Almost everyone who supports map cracking seems to have this completely insane idea that every single person who matters, makes maps, or uses map cracking utilities is a member of this website. How many people have downloaded or used map crackers? How many people have downloaded SCMDraft 2? How many guests visit this site, don't read anything, but use it for downloading programs? I would wager a hell of a lot more than the meager 2000 or so members I expect this website to achieve (at the moment there are not even 1000, I am being generous). You're being an elitist cock by taking the stance that only this website matters and no one else exists.

*This is a ridiculously conservative estimate. The actual percentage is may be as low as 0.002%. This site has less than 1000 members at the moment and there are ~80,000 people on USEast alone at any given time. Over the course of a single day there could be three or four times that just on East.


And protection, what is it's purpose? Ignoring author credit, the primary purpose is to stop a shitload of copies of one map from popping up. As I said, not every shitty little map needs to be protected. It may even be detrimental to the community to do so since those bad maps could be edited to be better. That IS your argument, isn't it? That some maps would benefit from being edited and that protection ruins that possibility?

The problem with that is, every once in a while a good map comes along that does not need to be edited and should be protected to preserve it's integrity in the community (not SEN, the Battle.net SC community) as long as possible. As I said, how do you choose what is worth keeping protected and what isn't? You can't. So you leave that freedom up to the person who made the map and hope they make the right decision. It is a more morally appropriate stance than saying that everyone is a total moron and that no one should be allowed to make the decision.

Protection means that the average user on Battle.net sees a huge majority of shitty maps and a few really damn good ones.
No protection means that the average user on Battle.net sees only mediocre maps.

You can try and argue that just because a map isn't protected, doesn't mean it won't be played by a lot of people. But people will edit it as soon as they get the chance to make maps easier, and the original solid game stops being hosted. I've seen it happen time and time again and anyone else who actually goes on Battle.net every once in a while and plays maps knows this is what happens. I would never expect you to understand something like that. But for someone like me, I don't give a flying fuck what a few people on this website think, I would rather good maps spread and be played by as many people as possible on Battle.net.

On a personal note, I have made two maps, Team Micro Attack and Civilization Sapphire which are both based on previously created maps that were never protected in the first place. There was never any reason for me to view the triggers or the inner workings of those maps or even consider editing the original versions, since they were too damn awful. I could have chosen to make slight improvements to those maps (ie: more mediocre shit) or I could have chosen to make new maps that are extremely high quality (we can play them if you want).

Oh, and DTBK just posted this giant lame post below mine. Most people are probably going to skip right past this one and only read the most recent post. The same thing is true with maps on Battle.net. People play what is new, even if it is a shitty new rigged version of a map that may end up overwriting the original good version.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Sep 23 2007, 7:28 pm by Esponeo.



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Sep 23 2007, 6:56 pm DT_Battlekruser Post #204



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Whereas murder and saving a life is a completely different situation. Nice try though. I wish I could have put that more eloquently.

The freedom to murder negates the freedom to save lives and have life, the way the 'freedom' to unprotect negates the freedom to protect. The only difference is most of us agree that murder is immoral.

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As long as the rule stands to preserve the author's wishes (simply put)

But it doesn't.

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It also serves as an ability for mappers to bar noobs from making endless versions (rigged/with cheats/or not) of their map and ruining it's identity

What? That's exactly what unprotectors do do.

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It is also a rule that can be enforced within the limits of this site, unwarranted editing/stealing/rigging of a map by someone here could certainly be reported and cause a probable ban of the rule breaker.

A ban does not the damage undo. Pointing people freely to OSMAP on this site will drastically increase its proliferation and spike it's malicious uses.

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which OSMAP helps to uphold by allowing beginners to view the triggers of a map

As if there are no other possible ways to learn how to make maps. Many learned mappers support open-source mapping and hence choose not to protect their maps. This is a choice I support, but not something that should be force upon people against their will.

Also, tutorials, anyone? Unprotection is not required to learn.

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The only arguement that protection has is "Me, I, My, Mine, etc." which has no place in a cooperative community.

I'm afraid giving away all my individual rights and freedoms to this community doesn't appeal to me right now.




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Sep 23 2007, 7:40 pm Forsaken Archer Post #205



O.o
Way back to what I originally said... protect the maps that are going to be hosted on b.net...
While we unprotect the maps that are no longer being worked on if we want to make them better / unrigged / whatever.



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Sep 23 2007, 8:09 pm Dapperdan Post #206



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Too bad only 0.01% (2000@SEN / 200000@BNET)* of people who play SC visit this website. Almost everyone who supports map cracking seems to have this completely insane idea that every single person who matters, makes maps, or uses map cracking utilities is a member of this website. How many people have downloaded or used map crackers? How many people have downloaded SCMDraft 2? How many guests visit this site, don't read anything, but use it for downloading programs? I would wager a hell of a lot more than the meager 2000 or so members I expect this website to achieve (at the moment there are not even 1000, I am being generous).
*This is a ridiculously conservative estimate. The actual percentage is may be as low as 0.002%. This site has less than 1000 members at the moment and there are ~80,000 people on USEast alone at any given time. Over the course of a single day there could be three or four times that just on East.

I think I know one person who has OSMap on all of bnet (and I've been extremly active almost 2 years straight now) and isn't/hasn't been active in SEN or Maplantis. Furthermore, basically what you are saying will help prove my next point--the overwhelming majority of SC players on bnet have never even seen SEN or Maplantis, and in conjuction never heard of OSMap.

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You're being an elitist cock by taking the stance that only this website matters and no one else exists.

That isn't what I said... I said that we could enforce it within the limits of this website. That in no way implies that no one else exists.

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Protection means that the average user on Battle.net sees a huge majority of shitty maps and a few really damn good ones.
No protection means that the average user on Battle.net sees only mediocre maps.

I'm not sure I'm clear on the reasoning behind this statement, if anyone else is then tell me please.

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But it doesn't.

We can make it the rule here, which is what has been hinted at before, and that is all I was refering too.

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What? That's exactly what unprotectors do do.

Way to take what I said out of context. If you're just going to purposely decieve and/or not read what I'm saying then maybe you should stop posting.

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A ban does not the damage undo. Pointing people freely to OSMAP on this site will drastically increase its proliferation and spike it's malicious uses.

Drastically? Drastically? More like marginally (at best). That is just ridiculous.

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I'm afraid giving away all my individual rights and freedoms to this community doesn't appeal to me right now.

None of this has anything to do with your rights and freedoms, period.



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Sep 23 2007, 8:28 pm DT_Battlekruser Post #207



It has everything to do with my freedom to protect my work.



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Sep 23 2007, 8:32 pm Moose Post #208

We live in a society.

While the work you put in "yours" (the map would not exist without your interaction), the inherent problem is that the finished product does not belong to you, which is stated in the EULA. :(




Sep 23 2007, 8:33 pm Esponeo Post #209



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I think I know one person who has OSMap on all of bnet (and I've been extremly active almost 2 years straight now) and isn't/hasn't been active in SEN or Maplantis. Furthermore, basically what you are saying will help prove my next point--the overwhelming majority of SC players on bnet have never even seen SEN or Maplantis, and in conjuction never heard of OSMap.
No.

SEN is not just in the business of hosting forums or helping people make maps. It also helps proliferate programs. A site like stormcoast-fortress.net has over one hundred thousand downloads for SCMDraft 2.

According to Yoshi, when I asked him if websites like SEN or Maplantis have more people downloading programs than actually posting on the forums, he simply stated "they do", finding the very suggestion that it might be otherwise absolutely ridiculous.

My point was that the number of people who register for the site is terribly small and that many people actual do use it for downloading programs. To assume that hosting a program would only mean that the registered members would be getting it is absurd.



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Sep 23 2007, 8:43 pm Akar Post #210



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Too bad only 0.01% (2000@SEN / 200000@BNET)* of people who play SC visit this website. Almost everyone who supports map cracking seems to have this completely insane idea that every single person who matters, makes maps, or uses map cracking utilities is a member of this website. How many people have downloaded or used map crackers? How many people have downloaded SCMDraft 2? How many guests visit this site, don't read anything, but use it for downloading programs? I would wager a hell of a lot more than the meager 2000 or so members I expect this website to achieve (at the moment there are not even 1000, I am being generous).
I know I've downloaded SCMDraft at least 20 times.



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Sep 23 2007, 8:46 pm JaFF Post #211



Quote from Dapperdan
I'm not sure I'm clear on the reasoning behind this statement, if anyone else is then tell me please.
He means that if protection is wide-spread, newbies can't learn as much, and good maps are not rigged. If there is no protection, the noobs rig maps, some newbies lear a bit (thus producing 'medicore' maps), but good maps are rigged.

I'll have to disagree. Go back to this: intelligent people will always get the original. So I'd say it like this:
protection: lots of shit, a fiew good maps.
no protection: more medicore maps, a fiew good maps.

Anyway, this is an argument that will probably never get old. There are so many sides to it that we can talk forever.



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Sep 23 2007, 8:53 pm Esponeo Post #212



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I'll have to disagree. Go back to this: intelligent people will always get the original. So I'd say it like this:
protection: lots of shit, a fiew good maps.
no protection: more medicore maps, a fiew good maps.
Right, but as you say, in the second scenario, only a few people will get the good maps. I would rather the first scenario where the good maps are much more widespread.

Pardon me for wanting to play quality maps publicly on Battle.net rather than hoping that someone on SEN wants to play.



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Sep 23 2007, 8:56 pm Akar Post #213



There ARE mappers like me that like the idea of Open Mapping with restrictions.



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Sep 23 2007, 9:34 pm DT_Battlekruser Post #214



Quote from Mini Moose 2707
While the work you put in "yours" (the map would not exist without your interaction), the inherent problem is that the finished product does not belong to you, which is stated in the EULA. :(

We're not talking about legal rights here :P



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Sep 23 2007, 10:55 pm Dapperdan Post #215



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No.

SEN is not just in the business of hosting forums or helping people make maps. It also helps proliferate programs. A site like stormcoast-fortress.net has over one hundred thousand downloads for SCMDraft 2.

According to Yoshi, when I asked him if websites like SEN or Maplantis have more people downloading programs than actually posting on the forums, he simply stated "they do", finding the very suggestion that it might be otherwise absolutely ridiculous.

My point was that the number of people who register for the site is terribly small and that many people actual do use it for downloading programs. To assume that hosting a program would only mean that the registered members would be getting it is absurd.

This is all correct. But what I said is still true as well:

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Furthermore, basically what you are saying will help prove my next point--the overwhelming majority of SC players on bnet have never even seen SEN or Maplantis, and in conjuction never heard of OSMap.

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He means that if protection is wide-spread, newbies can't learn as much, and good maps are not rigged. If there is no protection, the noobs rig maps, some newbies lear a bit (thus producing 'medicore' maps), but good maps are rigged.
I'll have to disagree. Go back to this: intelligent people will always get the original. So I'd say it like this:
protection: lots of shit, a fiew good maps.
no protection: more medicore maps, a fiew good maps.

Thank you JaFF, I agree with you on that standpoint, btw. Seeing as how espo didn't deny your intrepretation, I think the part of his arguement where all the good maps get rigged and become sucky is a major misconception. All this is hypothetical though.



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Sep 23 2007, 11:15 pm Esponeo Post #216



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Thank you JaFF, I agree with you on that standpoint, btw. Seeing as how espo didn't deny your intrepretation, I think the part of his arguement where all the good maps get rigged and become sucky is a major misconception. All this is hypothetical though.
I did say that in the second scenario good maps are not widespread, they are only available or played in places like SEN, on account of loads of rigged shitty versions destroying the playability on Battle.net. You seem to have this bullshit elitist stance where the fact that people on SEN are willing to play the good one should be more than enough for anyone. It isn't.



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Sep 23 2007, 11:26 pm Dapperdan Post #217



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I did say that in the second scenario good maps are not widespread, they are only available or played in places like SEN, on account of loads of rigged shitty versions destroying the playability on Battle.net.

I forgot that you said that/misunderstood the implications of what you said when you said it.

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You seem to have this bullshit elitist stance where the fact that people on SEN are willing to play the good one should be more than enough for anyone. It isn't

No, I still think plenty of people would get to play good maps, not just people on SEN or the like. That is apparently where we differ. You do realize most people who play bnet don't even know there way around staredit don't you? Even if that isn't true, which in some ways it may be, I still think people in general can notice a rigged map and don't want to play it. At the moment, I can't recall a single rigged map that has thrived. The best I can think is BattleCraft Rogue -T 3.97, where it's not really rigged, a couple stats are just changed (against the maker's wishes, and stats are huge in BC). Although, the stat changes weren't even really bad ones... but that's besides the point.



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Sep 24 2007, 12:04 am Esponeo Post #218



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At the moment, I can't recall a single rigged map that has thrived.
They don't thrive. They disappear. And for some reason the existence of those rigged versions causes pubs to refuse to play any version of the map.



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Sep 24 2007, 12:16 am Dapperdan Post #219



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They don't thrive. They disappear. And for some reason the existence of those rigged versions causes pubs to refuse to play any version of the map.

O rly? Just to be clear, you've given... 2 examples so far right? Can you give me more?



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Sep 24 2007, 12:23 am Esponeo Post #220



Raccoon City, Normandy, Quests Open RPG, Gunship RPG, Space Pirate War, Magic the Gathering, The Thing. The primary examples are maps that recreate an experience, which there aren't many of.

Simple maps like Snipers or Cat and Mouse are generally immune to the effect, although no one version ever seems to take hold.



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