Amen.

So to summarize: "We're right and you're wrong."

EXCELLENT DEBATE SKILLS.

Perhaps you could point out how map cracking is extremely useful for learning and modifying existing maps and... er... Oh.. right.

Map cracking is extremely useful for learning and modifying existing maps.

Happy now?

OSMAP doesn't contribute to mapping, happy?
Well just so you know, protecting the map, never contributed to mapping either!
In fact, because people have came so attached to the idea that, everyone must learn the hard way, just so said person can try and keep credit a little longer then if they had not protected the map; mapping has become a downhill slope.
Protection never was something mappers were supposed to be able to do.
OSMAP simply is the program that brings StarCraft to its original state where you can share maps, learn from people etc...
I don't care if there's a wiki, I don't care if there's tutorials, I don't care if there's an assistance forum. That's all just website trash, OSMAP lets people get first hand experience as to how to do something.
There is no negatives to OSMAP, and no positives to protection, this ultimately leaves OSMAP as the hero to what was wrong with mapping.

One hundred percent correct. However, it does harm the people PLAYING the map if people begin making dozens of slightly altered versions that annoy the player base so that they no longer wish to play at all.

I learned map making from the Staredit help menu and a little bit of talking with Endarire. Learning from maps is not necessary, and any map that has been cracked open lacks too much of the original data to be very useful. Any map that was never protected in the first place is a far better learning tool.

My main problem with map cracking is not map stealing, which is unlikely to occur and should not be a problem if your map is good and spreads quickly. The problem I see is shown by such maps as Normandy or Raccoon City. Those were great maps that were unprotected and then dozens of different versions were created, ultimately leading to those maps no longer being hosted.

The problem is slightly complicated by the fact that not every shitty little map needs to be protected. Simple maps are useful for learning a few basic things by examining them. Nowadays every god damn Cat and Mouse map is protected. An awful state indeed. I do not see map cracking as an acceptable solution to that problem however.

Essentially.. only good maps that do not need to be edited should be protected. But who is to decide what is good or not? That becomes a problem. You are basically forced to either to allow the map maker to choose or allow no one to choose. I think that allowing everyone to choose is a far more morally appropriate stance, regardless of the problems it may cause. It is just like freedom of speech, not everyone is going to use their freedom correctly, but that doesn't mean you take it away.

Supporting map cracking is an elitist stance that says you know better than the maker. That may be true, it may not. Either way it is not the sort of belief that successful nations like the United States are based on.

I just realized that analogy is totally fucking awesome.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Sep 23 2007, 1:46 am by Esponeo.

That isn't my logic, I started my opinion on the matter, but in the end, I truly don't care that much as to what happens at this point. It has become clear to me a fair decision will be made and that enough intelligent input has been made here to allow for it. Do I think OSMap should be allowed to be hosted here? Yes. Do I think it is extremely helpful at helping mapmakers as Falkoner does? Hell no. What do I do with my maps? I protect them with uberation to prevent any noob tampering and then allow myself to care less if someone uses OSMap to unprotect it, hopefully they have good reasoning. Although I would certainly consider not protecting a map I make at all. I stand a bit on both sides of the arguement.



Correctomundo.

I think the fact there is so many rigged versions is fun, because you get to find the most balanced version and play that.

Me and lady played a Cat and Mouse Desert map and completely pwned everyone at it, both mice and cats. We turned it into like hostage negotiation, we got so powerful that we had our own base filled up with hydra's, defilers, medics, kerrigans, baby cats etc... and we'd tell them to save, feed us or they will lose, then in exchange for doing as we said, we'd give them a good 5 minutes to build up.

Only when we found out there was a cheat in it, did I bother to edit the map and take it out.

So yeah, OSMAP still rox ;D

That's basically what I've always been saying for a while now. No one makes maps, finishes them, or makes ones which get spread on battle.net and are worthy of being stolen. Therefore no one needs to worry about protection or their map being stolen. Only maps with a high probability of being stolen warrant the use of protection only as a small deterrent to noob map stealers, ie noobs who just know how to open an editor and change the name. Of course, nothing can stop the intelligent and determined map stealer.

Actually, more like 'we don't give a damn if we're right, we can force our opinion on you anyway'.

Quote

Essentially.. only good maps that do not need to be edited should be protected. But who is to decide what is good or not? That becomes a problem. You are basically forced to either to allow the map maker to choose or allow no one to choose. I think that allowing everyone to choose is a far more morally appropriate stance, regardless of the problems it may cause. It is just like freedom of speech, not everyone is going to use their freedom correctly, but that doesn't mean you take it away.

Supporting map cracking is an elitist stance that says you know better than the maker. That may be true, it may not. Either way it is not the sort of belief that successful nations like the United States are based on.

I just realized that analogy is totally fucking awesome.

Seriously. Owned. Best analogy yet.

That is why the mappers should protect the map, and then other mappers should unprotect the map for their purposes, but newbs from B.Net cannot. I believe that OS Map and protection should be used hand in hand, to keep newbs off, and let mappers in.

I don't think you realize that there isn't some huge divide between newbs and people on SEN. There are plenty of intelligent people who only use battle.net and plenty of dumb people who use SEN. Maps like Normandy and Quests and Raccoon City were unprotected and soon dozens of versions popped up.

I don't think that's really important now, since the analogy I made previously is totally fucking awesome and completely unassailable by an argument anyone can muster up.

I completely agree espeon (this is getting really weird ;P) the problem lays in the fact that there is apparently some divine line between SEN users or Maplantis users and battle.net
I personally don't care if somebody riggs my map and releases like 100 versions, whenever I play it, i'll play my own un-rigged version and others will follow the lead.

I wouldn't care if anyone made modified versions of my maps as long as they leave my nick in the credits. The problem comes when some newbs rig it, replace my nick with theirs and then people start playing it over bnet just because it's easier or just rigged. That would truely annoy me.

Why does credit matter so much?
Like people keep saying it over and over again, but as long as you know you made it, that's all you need to know.
You want fame, not credit, which ultimately is stupid.

Looking at the maps played in Battle.net, I doubt that matters.

If you release a really kickass map and it gets stolen/rigged, the intelligent players that truely rated your hard work will find the original version and play it. The noobs can play what ever they want - they won't be really annoyed by the fact that it's rigged/stolen.

Falkoner, that argument about OSmap being there only to let the mappers in is total BS - protection removes all the comments, thus making it a real pain in the ass to understand what's going on.

If a map isn't worth protecting, it certainly isn't worth unprotecting.

Uncommented, with default location names?
True.dat.

I'm pretty sure you're the only one who enjoys spending a bunch of time searching for a good version. Yeah, you may have fun every so often when it's actually rigged in your favor, but that's usually not the case, and it's definitely not fun for everyone else.

Striking at the core of the OSMAP debate -- Emotion: 1, Logic: 0.
It's rather depressing when you realize no matter how many holes you punch in the logic, they're still going to keep at. Once the armor of faulty logic is removed, all that remains visible is hatred and persistance exposed.

okay let's just say this, OSMAP ROCKS!

That's what kids do when they lose arguments, I guess.

Yes. Let's all agree with something that has no basis. I think we can all agree that Santa Claus exists!

There is no need for logic at this present time, all the arguements have been made, the lines are drawn, and the sides are picked. It's like stalemate, I think you just have to accept that OSMAP rocks your socks, because you can't escape it ;D! and if you can, LW DO YOUR JOB DAMNIT!