Programing
May 20 2008, 11:48 pm
By: Brontobyte
Pages: < 1 2 3 4 57 >
 

May 21 2008, 9:01 pm Heimdal Post #41



Quote from O)FaRTy1billion[MM]
Quote from KilaByte
Remeber to comment all your code so you can go back to it later and understand what it all means. (Yes, its very easy to get lost in your own code with bad habits/documentation)
I still don't understand that... I've never gotten lost in my own code, even when it was ASM and everything looks the same.

Also, apparently, the things I do are not good... so you could try the opposite. That may be worse, though. xP
Comments are like the story of the 3 bears & goldilocks. Too many comments is just as bad as too few. For the most part, code should be self-describing: resist the temptation to use single-letter variables. Make every identifier (names of variables, functions, classes, etc) very explicit about what it is for. If you do this, you only need comments for the most complicated bits of code.



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May 21 2008, 9:34 pm Cole Post #42



If you're looking for an eventual career I would look into learning C++. In fact, no matter what you do learn a little C++. Even if you never have to compile C++ code you will probably have to interact with a C++ DLL. Understanding how C++ works and how memory is handled is important when working with a C++ DLL. Creating a GUI in C++ is much harder and it's not something you can jump into right away. I would highly suggest learning the basics of C++ regardless of what language you choose.

I would not suggest Java. Slow and a memory hog.

I would not suggest anything VB based (Java > VB).

I would suggest C#. C# has very simple GUI creation where C++ does not. C# is a C based syntax (unlike VB). C# is also similar to Java in simplicity and basic design. From my experiences .NET applications work very well (C# uses the .NET JIT Compiler). Furthermore .NET applications have MONO allowing for single-build cross platform. C# also has several advanced features from C++ that Java lacks and furthermore allows C# to use less memory and perform quicker than Java when performance is demanded the most: Pointers and Unmanaged Memory.



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May 21 2008, 11:22 pm Brontobyte Post #43



Quote from KilaByte
Remeber to comment all your code so you can go back to it later and understand what it all means.

PFFFTT! Have you seen any of my maps? My triggers are strictly commented with genre comments above a given selection. This will most likely be the least of my problems... :)



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May 21 2008, 11:52 pm Demented Shaman Post #44



What grade are you in? Your school doesn't offer programming classes?

Anyway you should learn the real basic fundamental first, definitions if you have to. Those are independent of the language you use. Most concepts are the same from language to language, it's just the syntax that changes. I think it's better to focus learning those things rather than get caught up on the syntax of a certain language.

Regardless of what language you decide on, learn the conventions programmers use and develop good habits.



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May 22 2008, 12:01 am Brontobyte Post #45



Quote from name:devilesk
What grade are you in? Your school doesn't offer programming classes?

Grade - 11th

And no, my school is retarded and does not provide any decent computer classes besides typing, but StarCraft showed me how to type fast... :P I don't plan on going in head first, I plan on slowly learning the basic steps on how to do things, what does what, learn how to use the program ect... I want this to work so I will do it the hard way and learn it from start to finish as throughly as possible. >.<



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May 22 2008, 1:18 am mikelat Post #46



Java may be slow but its cross platform and popular.



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May 22 2008, 1:27 am Brontobyte Post #47



I'm still a little confused on where to start? Should I just read up on everything I could? Should I read then test something out? Should I just open someones program and learn from that? Put me in your shoes. How did you learn? Was it effective? Would you have changed something if you could of? <--Directed towards vivid programmers.



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May 22 2008, 1:49 am Cole Post #48



Quote
Java may be slow but its cross platform and popular.
.NET and MONO > Java

Quote
I'm still a little confused on where to start? Should I just read up on everything I could? Should I read then test something out? Should I just open someones program and learn from that? Put me in your shoes. How did you learn? Was it effective? Would you have changed something if you could of? <--Directed towards vivid programmers.
How did I learn? I started with C++. I got a C++ IDE and Compiler, found a tutorial and used it to make my first "Hello World" program. Then I made a tic-tac-toe game from the command prompt in C++. I then rewrote that tic-tac-toe game 4 different ways (switches, if-then, functions, etc..) to learn different styles of writing the same program. I learned enough to understand how C++ manages memory (Manipulating strings and pointers)

Turned off by the lack of a GUI (or Resource) editor in Visual Studio C++ Express and the complexity of the Win32API, I tried several different programming languages and fell in love with C#. I thought up a program I always wanted to make and went to make it. This was a music program. I had a hard time trying to figure out all the things I wanted to do, but I asked questions and used tutorials to figure it all out. By the time I was done I realized, "Hey, I could design this a lot better and simpler". So I went back and redid it from scratch, I still came across a lot of things I didn't know before and by the time I was done I would ask myself, "Could I do it this way?" and I kept on rewriting parts of it with quicker, smarter, and more object oriented code.

You just gotta start making a program that isn't to far out (no Starforge or Scmdraft), and just work at it. The idea is to make a program that you don't know how to do. Then slowly start writing code until it comes together. If you need help, google it, ask on a forum, or find a tutorial.



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May 22 2008, 1:56 am KilaByte Post #49



Quote from Heimdal
Quote from O)FaRTy1billion[MM]
Quote from KilaByte
Remeber to comment all your code so you can go back to it later and understand what it all means. (Yes, its very easy to get lost in your own code with bad habits/documentation)
I still don't understand that... I've never gotten lost in my own code, even when it was ASM and everything looks the same.

Also, apparently, the things I do are not good... so you could try the opposite. That may be worse, though. xP
Comments are like the story of the 3 bears & goldilocks. Too many comments is just as bad as too few. For the most part, code should be self-describing: resist the temptation to use single-letter variables. Make every identifier (names of variables, functions, classes, etc) very explicit about what it is for. If you do this, you only need comments for the most complicated bits of code.

Well of course you don't get lost in a hello world program. But when your working in an enviornment with several people working on the same code, the more comments the better. And yes, even your own code can get out of hand to the point where even you can't understand it (Unless you work on it daily.) I have got confused in my own code after not messing with it for a few months. At my college we are taught to Flow-Chart, Document, and Comment everything. Because thats what it will be like in a workplace. And thats what he's looking for amirite? Programming as a CAREER. Not a hobbyist. As when I say comment I don't mean comment...

'THIS DECLARES STRING LOL
Declare String lol

I mean comment the important things that wouldn't be understood by reading the actual code. And Java is an easier place to start, and it builds a good foundation for C++. The Syntax is much stricter and helps you learn good habits. Yes you can still fall into bad habits, but IMHO its much worse with C++. In my classes, the documentation, flow-charting, and commenting is worth more points than the actual code.

Source:
I got to college for Sun Java Programming and VB.NET programming.

Also, Java can run in a browser or console, is popular, and more fun.



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May 22 2008, 2:05 am Cole Post #50



I really don't think any managed language (like C# or Java) is a good foundation for C++. C++ is such a huge shift in memory management and pointers. You really take it for granted in managed languages. Learning C++ forces you to understand how and why managed languages work like they do.
For instance in C# why is this bad?
string a = "haha!!";
for(int i = 0; i != 5000; i++)
{
string a = a + "!!";
}
In C++ you'd have to create and delete the memory of "string a" every time so you understand why this is costly. However it's not as prominent in C# or Java because the garbage collector deletes and creates the memory for you.



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May 22 2008, 2:06 am KilaByte Post #51



Quote from Cole
I really don't think any managed language (like C# or Java) is a good foundation for C++. C++ is such a huge shift in memory management and pointers. You really take it for granted in managed languages. Learning C++ forces you to understand how and why managed languages work like they do.
For instance in C# why is this bad?
string a = "haha!!";
for(int i = 0; i != 5000; i++)
{
string a = a + "!!";
}
In C++ you'd have to create and delete the memory of "string a" every time so you understand why this is costly. However it's not as prominent in C# or Java because the garbage collector deletes and creates the memory for you.

Which in turn, makes Java easier.

And.. To further prove this point.

Java was made as an easier alternative to C++. It was based pretty much off of C++, therefore there are many similarities.



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May 22 2008, 2:10 am Cole Post #52



Of course, I am in no way disputing that Java is easier than C++, I am disputing something else entirely! Java and C# are easier than C++ because the garbage collector handles the memory. However that doesn't make it a good foundation for C++, in fact it makes it a horrible foundation for C++. You will be so use to working with a garbage collector you would end up confused on why C++ doesn't work the same. It's much easier to push the concept in before you're use to garbage collection. It also helps you better understand the concepts in Java and C# better, allowing you to build better code in those languages.

Understanding the fundamentals of C++ will help you code better in C# and Java.



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May 22 2008, 2:13 am KilaByte Post #53



I guess a debate about which is better could go on forever. It's really programmers preference. I hate C++, I hate doing more work than needed. I like to write my code, and get results and not worry about the garbage collectors (Or lack thereof.). I'm a lazy programmers (most are) and I really hate doing more work than needed.

So I'll just leave this thread with this comparison I found. This is for Brontobyte to decided for himself, I'm just offering my input.

http://www.computing.dcu.ie/~renaat/projects/cvjava.html



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May 22 2008, 2:15 am Cole Post #54



I'm not debating about what ones better. They each have there own perks. I'm simply debating that Java (or any managed language) is not a good foundation for C++.



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May 22 2008, 3:04 am DT_Battlekruser Post #55



I understand your argument in terms of lower-level management, but especially for anyone learning to program, it is much more important to teach the fundamentals of good coding than trying to learn the gritty side of managing memory and garbage collection.

Quote
while Java really isn't

On the contrary, Java is, in my opinion, the best language for fostering good standard coding habits. It is strictly object-oriented (beginning within the static main) and prohibits many bad habits that are mainly the result of lazy PHP people. If I have a pet peeve, it's PHP's tolerance of much crappy syntax and its whorish use of library functions rather than a class API.

I present the following argument as to the viability of Java as a professional programming language for major projects. While it is fractionally slower than C++ due to internal management, with later releases of Java (1.4+) this difference shrinks to 10% or less:


Quote
This is where I revisit many discussions (i.e. arguments) about why Java is not a crazy
choice for games programming. Possibly this chapter isn't necessary since you're
already convinced of Java's qualities. But maybe you're not quite sure.


1. First the Advantages, but briefly...
One of my assumptions is that the reader (that's you) already has an introductory
knowledge of Java, the sort of stuff gleaned from a semester's course at college. Near
the start of that course, you'll have been regaled with Java's many advantages: object
orientation, cross-platform support, code reuse, ease of development, tool availability,
reliability and stability, good documentation, support from Sun Microsystems, low
development costs, the ability to use legacy code (e.g. C, C++), and increased
programmer productivity.
Rather than explain each of them again, I'll take a different approach. I'll discuss
Java's suitability for games programming in terms of the typical
misconceptions/complaints wheeled out by people who think that games must be
implemented in C, or C++, or assembler, or whatever (so long as its not Java).
Here's the list, briefly:
• Java is too slow for games programming;
• Java has memory leaks;
• Java is too high-level;
• Java isn't supported on games consoles, so why bother using it;
• No one uses Java to write real games;
• Sun Microsystems isn't interested in supporting Java gaming.


2. Java is Too Slow for Games Programming
They mean that Java is slow compared to C or C++, the dominant languages for
games programming at the moment.
This argument was valid when Java first appeared (around 1996), but has become
increasingly ridiculous with each new release. Some figures put JDK 1.0 at 20 to 40
times slower than C++. J2SE 1.4.2 (the current release) is typically 1.1-1.3 times
slower.
These numbers depend greatly on the coding style used. Java programmers must be
good programmers in order to utilise Java efficiently, but that’s true of any language.
Jack Shirazi's Java Performance Tuning site
(http://www.javaperformancetuning.com/) is a good source for performance tips, and
links to tools and other resources.
A recent benchmarking of Java vs C++ by Keith Lea caused quite a stir
(http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=26634). He found that Java
may sometimes be faster than C++. The response from the C++ crowd was typically
vitriolic.
The speed-up in Java is mostly due to improvements in compiler design. The Hotspot
technology introduced in J2SE 1.3 enables the run-time system to identify crucial
areas of code that are utilised many times, and these are aggressively compiled.
Hotspot technology is relatively new, and it’s quite likely that future versions of Java
will find further speed-ups. For example, the forthcoming J2SE 1.5 is meant to be 1.2
to 1.5 times faster than its predecessor.
Hotspot technology has the unfortunate side-effect that program execution is often
slow at the beginning until the code has been analyzed and compiled.

2.1. Swing is Slow
Swing often comes under attack for being slow. Swing GUI components are created
and controlled from Java, with little OS support: this increases their portability and
makes them more controllable from within a Java program. Speed is supposedly
compromised because Java imposes an extra layer of processing above the OS. This is
one reason why some games applications still utilise the original Abstract Windowing
Toolkit (AWT) – it's mostly just simple wrapper methods around OS calls.
Even if Swing is slow (and I'm not convinced), most games don't require complex
GUIs: full-screen game play with mouse and keyboard controls are the norm, so GUI
speed is less of a factor.

2.2. My Program is Slow Because of Java
A crucial point about speed is knowing what to blame when a program runs slowly.
Typically, a large part of the graphics rendering of a game is handled by hardware or
software outside of Java. For example, Java 3D passes its rendering tasks down to
OpenGL or Direct3X, which may emulate hardware capabilities such as bump
mapping. Often the performance bottleneck in network games is the network.


3. Java has Memory Leaks
When C/C++ programmers refer to memory leaks in Java, it may mean that they don't
understand how Java works. Java doesn't offer pointer arithmetic, and typical C-style
memory leaks such as out-of-bounds array accesses are caught by the Java compiler.
However, they may mean that objects which are no longer needed by the program are
not being garbage collected. This becomes an issue if the program keeps creating new
objects, requiring more memory, and eventually crashes when the maximum
allocation is exceeded.
This kind of problem is a consequence of bad programming style, since the garbage
collector can only do its job when an object is completely dereferenced (i.e. the
program no longer refers to it).
A good profiling tool, such as JProfiler (http://www.ejtechnologies.
com/products/jprofiler/overview.html), can be a great help in identifying
code using excessive amounts of memory. JProfiler is a commercial product; many
open source profilers are listed at http://java-source.net/.
Another memory related complaint is that the garbage collector is executing at poorly
timed intervals, causing the application to halt for seconds while the collector sweeps
and cleans.
The JVM comes with several different garbage collectors, which collect in various
ways, and can be selected and fine-tuned from the command line. Information on the
performance of the chosen collector can be gathered and analysed. A good hands-on
explanation of this topic, centered around the JTune visualization tool, can be found at
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-perf06304/.

4. Java is Too High-level
This complaint is the age old one of abstraction versus speed and control. The details
of the argument often include the following statements:

1. Java’s use of classes, objects and, inheritance add too much overhead without
enough coding benefit;
2. Java’s machine independence means that low-level, fast operations, such as direct
Video RAM I/O, are impossible.

Statement (1) ignores the obvious benefits of reusing and extending Java’s very large
class library, which includes high-speed I/O, advanced 2D and 3D graphics, and an
enormous range of networking techniques, from lowly sockets to distributed agents.
Also forgotten are the advantages of object oriented design, typified by UML, which
makes complex, large real-world systems more manageable during development,
implementation, and maintenance.
Statement (2) impacts gaming when we consider high-speed graphics, but it's been
addressed in recent versions of Java. J2SE 1.4 introduced a full-screen exclusive
mode (FSEM), which suspends the normal windowing environment, and allows an
application to more directly access the underlying graphics hardware. It permits
techniques such as page flipping, and provides control over the screen's resolution and
image depth. The principal aim of FSEM is to speed up graphics-intensive
applications, such as games.
Statement (2) also comes into play for game perpherals, such as joysticks and
gamepads; machine independence seems to suggest that 'non-standard' I/O devices
won't be useable. Java games requiring these types of devices can utilize JNI, the Java
Native Interface, to link to C or C++ and so to the hardware. There's also JInput, a
new game controller API, due to be finalised early in 2005.
An interesting historical observation is that the gaming community use to think that C
and C++ were too high-level for fast, efficient games programming, when compared
to assembly language. Opinions started to change only after the obvious success of
games written in C, such as Doom and Dungeon Master, in the mid 1980s. Also
important was the appearance of cross-platform development tools that supported C,
such as Renderware.


5. Java isn't Supported on Games Consoles so Why Bother?
Unfortunately, this criticism has some justification.
Video gaming is a multi-billion dollar industry, with estimates placing revenues at
$US 29 billion by 2007. The market will cater to over 235 million gamers.
PCs and game consoles account for almost all the income, but only about 10-20% of it
is from PCs, the majority coming from three consoles: Sony’s PlayStation 2 (PS2),
Microsoft’s Xbox, and Nintendo’s GameCube. Sony is the dominant console maker,
having nearly twice as many units in homes compared to Microsoft and Nintendo
combined. Microsoft accounts for about 95% of the desktop PC market.
Arguably, there are only two important games platforms: the PS2 and Windows, and
Java isn't available on the PlayStation.
This problem has long been recognized by Sun: back at the JavaOne conference in
2001, Sony and Sun announced their intention to port the JVM to the PS2. Nothing
has been released, but there are persistent rumours about a JVM on the PlayStation 3,
earmarked to appear in 2006.

In the future, Java may have a better chance of acceptance into the closed-world of
console makers because of two trends: consoles are mutating into home media
devices, and the meteroic rise of online gaming. Both require consoles to offer
complex networking and server support, strong areas for Java and Sun.
The Phantom console from Infinium Labs was announced at JavaOne in 2004
(http://www.phantom.net/index.php). It's essentially a PC running an embedded
Windows XP, with a nVidia graphics card, a hard drive, and a broadband connection.
Most importantly for Java gaming, it will come with a complete JRE. It was also
demoed during E3 (Electronic Entertainment Exposition) in 2004, where it was shown
running Law and Order: Dead on the Money (which uses Java 3D).
Diehard programmers may point out that it's already possible to get Java running on a
PS2. One approach is to install Kaffe, an open source, non-Sun JVM, on top of
PlayStation Linux. Kaffe can be obtained from http://www.kaffe.org/; details on
Linux for the PlayStation are at http://playstation2-linux.com/. The gallant
programmer will also need a Java-to-bytecode translator, such as Jikes (http://www-
124.ibm.com/developerworks/oss/jikes/).

The Linux kit adds a hard disk to the PS2, so this development strategy will not work
for ordinary PlayStations. Configuring the software looks to be far beyond the
capabilities (or desires) of ordinary console owners, and I couldn't find any
documentation about using Jikes/Kaffe on a PS2. The PlayStation only comes with
32Mb of RAM, while a typical JVM and its libraries requires 5-10Mb, so how much
would be left for a game once Linux was up and running?
The difficulties with this approach should be compared to the availability of feature
rich C/C++ tools and engines for consoles, such as RenderWare
(http://www.renderware.com/) and Gamebryo (http://www.ndl.com/). They have a
track record of best-selling games, and can port games across the PS2, Xbox,
GameCube, and PCs.

The lack of Java on consoles is a serious issue, but the remaining PC market is far
from miniscule. Microsoft estimates that there are 600 million Windows PCs at
present, growing to more than 1 billion by 2010. Games on PCs benefit from superior
hardware, such as video cards, RAM, and internet connection, to offer more exciting
game play. There are many more PC games, particularly in the area of multiplayer
online games. It is throught that the 40% of all gamers will start playing online by
2005. Revenues may reach US$ 1.1.billion by 2008.
Another rapidly expanding market is the one for mobile games, with sales of US$ 530
million in 2003, potentially rising to US$ 1.93 billion in 2006. There are perhaps 200
million Java-enabled phones at the moment.

~~Andrew Davison, Killer Game Programming in Java


Unless I'm mistaken, your little code segment should result in a compile-time syntax error...

Code
string a = "haha!!";
for(int i = 0; i != 5000; i++)
{
   string a = a + "!!";   // Duplicate local variable 'a'
}


In any event such bad practice is simple bad technique, which should be avoided in Java as in C++.


That being said, C++ is still something useful to learn, but I think that Java makes a better first language. That and it is become the instructional standard for introductory programming classes.




None.

May 22 2008, 5:08 am O)FaRTy1billion[MM] Post #56

👻 👾 👽 💪

Quote from Brontobyte
I'm still a little confused on where to start? Should I just read up on everything I could? Should I read then test something out? Should I just open someones program and learn from that? Put me in your shoes. How did you learn? Was it effective? Would you have changed something if you could of? <--Directed towards vivid programmers.
Other than HTML (which is of little use at all here), I actually learned JavaScript as my first computer language. I wouldn't suggest just diving in like that... Mainly because it took me a while to catch on and I had no idea what was going on. Basically all I did was find snippets in whatever language I wanted to learn and then modified them to see how they work. Of course I didn't catch on to some basic fundamentals (and still havn't in some cases :shifty:)... Yeah it pretty much is a bad way to go. Nevermind. :P
(I do that with like everything... I've never actually taken a class, read a book, or even gone through an entire tutorial (I'd just look at the snippets contained within and jab them.) :P)



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May 22 2008, 6:07 am DT_Battlekruser Post #57



Quote
I actually learned JavaScript as my first computer language.

Ewwwwwww.

Admittedly, I think my first language was VB.




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May 22 2008, 10:55 am pneumatic Post #58



I actually found that map triggering has some concepts that are common in programming. there are definitely differences and triggering does not make you a good programmer, but it's cool to realize where that trigger logic came from.

hey farty, how'd you learn assembly?



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May 22 2008, 12:18 pm Cole Post #59



Quote
I understand your argument in terms of lower-level management, but especially for anyone learning to program, it is much more important to teach the fundamentals of good coding than trying to learn the gritty side of managing memory and garbage collection.
While it is necessary to learn the fundamentals, it is much easier for go from C++ to Java. C++ would be a short term investment, and Java would be a long term investment. You'll learn the fundamentals of good coding either when once you move into Java/C# from C++.

Quote
Unless I'm mistaken, your little code segment should result in a compile-time syntax error...
Thank you, small overlook on my part. I haven't been programming for a few months now.

I don't believe any managed language will ever take over for games. Why? Games have to handle massive amounts of memory. While garbage collectors may be able to handle smaller tasks, it is much harder to make it perform as well when handling tons more memory. The garbage collector only deletes things in memory that have no references to them. It's very easy to set up code in Java or C# when you have millions of lines of code to accidentally hold onto a few things and dramatically boost up memory usage. Furthermore pointers can be huge in performance gains when used correctly and Java simply lacks these. However Java is a simpler language and it would be up to the developer to decide if the gains in development time with Java offset the ability to handle memory in C++.
Also, you're really just passing Java variables into C++ dll's (and you get overhead form having to make the variables held in place). So really all the actual low-level driver talk and rendering isn't done by Java but by C++ and probably a bit of assembly.

Give Java pointers and ability to handle unmanaged memory, then I think we might see more game usage.



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May 22 2008, 1:50 pm A_of-s_t Post #60

aka idmontie

Sadly, I learned C++, then Javascript, then Visual C#, then Visual Basic. Thats kinda sad :(. I think the best place to start is at Visual Basic and then learn C++.



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[05:25 pm]
NudeRaider -- there he is, right on time! Go UV! :D
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[03:36 pm]
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[2024-5-16. : 3:02 am]
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Ultraviolet -- fuck those motherfuckers
[2024-5-15. : 11:02 pm]
NudeRaider -- PSA: ASUS apparently decided their RMA department needs to "become profitable" and for a while now outright tries to scam customers. They were called out on it a year ago, promised to change, but didn't. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pMrssIrKcY so my recommendation: Stop buying ASUS, and if you already have and need something RMA'd, make sure to not let them bully you into paying.
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