I'm not buying retail. HoN is good fun, but they like to do stupid stuff with the characters. If I can realize this, surely you guys can too.

Actually, many of the things they've done with heroes has worked quite well.

The problem is, the community has no faith in the S2 heroes and remakes and immediately calls them bad or repeated concepts, and then when they come out with a new hero that uses new concepts, everybody bitches that they are over complicated. Have you ever looked at some of the balance changes made by icefrog and the new heroes he releases? None of them have new concepts, and they are usually overpowered as fuck.

People also dont realize that icefrog designed dota so not every hero would be competitively viable. HON is trying to change that, and so far has succeeded. The exception being rampage who they still refuse to help.

They're not doing "stupid stuff." They're attempting to balance, which is a long and arduous process. It may take 4 or 5 times remaking a hero to get it just right.

If you're not willing to buy the game and see it into full balance, then you're not worthy to say what they do with their game is stupid. I'm just tired of people using that as an excuse not to buy the game. If you think it's fun, then you have no reason not to buy it, as that's the point of the game.

Also, $30 is not that much to buy the game.

And Nude, i refuse to let you move over to LOL and leave HON in the dust. We've had too many good times

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 14 2010, 5:25 am by ShredderIV.

Yeah, too bad you didn't show up anymore when I had become somewhat decent. But you know, LoL is still free.
But don't worry, I doubt myself that I'm moving to LoL. I saw it and it doesn't appeal to me the slightest. The ONLY thing that appeals to me is that I've heard that it has simpler gameplay, so I might be more successful amongst those noobs.
But yeah overall I think if I really grow that desperate it'd be more likely that I invest those 30 dollars for HoN.

Is there any way I can get this game for free? I really don't feel like paying $30 for a game I usually lose at.

No.

Then I quit.

Hah Nude, I played a bit of LoL before HoN. HoN is far superior if you ask me.

Guess the next time we play will be when SC2 comes out:P

Yeah, I guess there's a reason why they called the game lol.
Btw. I'm already done playing SC2. Played a few games to see how it is, but I'm not interested in melee. Lets see if the UMS scene manages to catch my interest.
So far I'm sticking to SC1.

To be frank, I think it's a mistake for S2 to try so hard to make the game "competitive." They have their eyes set out on the one "safe" path of competition but blind themselves to the options surrounding them that could give birth to both greater competition and more enjoyable gameplay. A game to be enjoyed should be their top priority - balance would come naturally due to the fact that the game forces different teams of players to compete against each other. But they seek to make a game for a genre in which balance is a must for enjoyable gameplay. What they are doing is essentially making bread and marketing its primary feature as "being made with yeast." This relates to HoN and S2 in that S2 is taking something that is naturally competitive and using the aspect of competition as a marketing base. I don't know how to put this in any other way; S2 says "Buy my bread, 'cause yeast was used in its making;" I respond, "Bread made with yeast is not f*cking special."

Rather than putting themselves in that sort of light, S2 should be making their AoS-team-game with care to giving the game distinct features and gameplay. The fact that HoN has its own engine (contrasting the fact that DotA is a mere mod/map of/for WC3) is an excellent start for features and gameplay. The reconnection feature is probably way overlooked, or taken for granted. It's saved my ass plenty of times. This is a general feature that allows overall increased enjoyment and appreciation for the game.
Matchmaking is another great feature, since it makes it convenient for players to enter fair games. However, matchmaking does not make HoN "competitive;" rather, it, along with stat-tracking, allows competition to flourish.
That leads into stat-tracking. It's meant to be a measure of skill. Players with good stats should be expected to be good players. These are plain facts. However, different players with similar stats suggest that the players are evenly matched. This brings up "apparent skill," which is produced through stats alone. Now, along with matchmaking, games in which players of equal "apparent skill" are tested for which are truly the better players. In evenly matched games, players literally compete with each other to determine the best of them; that is, those who deserve better stats.
Thus, stat-tracking and matchmaking together promotes competition, and allows S2 to say that their game is not only competitive by nature, but also promotes competition through the inclusion of distinct game features.

Now, for gameplay. Okay I'm bored. I looked over my post and decided I'm rambling. So, I'm done with this for now.

My computer is still dead.

Savage>>HoN because it's free.

Go play LoL.

HoN is meant to be a DotA port that's optimized for competitive play. That means reduction of randomization and many other features which try to improve the experience. Balance is a huge part of making competitive play exciting by adding to the replayability. If there's only 15 viable heroes you'll see a pretty boring metagame evolve. Thus, balance is core and absolutely necessary for high level play to be interesting.

Yea, I believe most of which that you have said is true. (exception: HoN = DotA port, needs citation, it's not a direct port.)
I feel that you just rephrased what I have said but with a greater emphasis on balance being key, which I agree with. I need to clarify my meaning though, which I will do as soon as I can.

I just have to say I can't believe how many of you cheap bastards wouldn't shell out a measly 30$ for this game. I can't remember the last time a good game cost me 30$ at release.

I can't shell out $30 for a game. There's not enough minerals. Also, HoN is not exactly my thing. Maybe if I was more successful, but alas I am not.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 17 2010, 4:31 am by poison_us.

You can play in a private server, for all I know. There are some out there.

"At S2, we're huge fans of DOTA, and were pained to see how it was being held back on the warcraft 3 engine. DOTA style gameplay deserves a stand alone game so competition can be taken to the next level. As a MOD, DOTA faces many obstacles and boundaries that a stand alone title like Heroes of Newerth does not. That said, we'd never have made this game without DOTA's current maintainer, IceFrog, being completely OK with it. We have great respect for him and his work, and HoN is about taking DOTA style gameplay to the next level."

haha, google can be funny at times:
Reminds me of google's april fools (or was it msn or something?) where they advertised that you can now deposit or send to friends all over the world physical objects like door keys and what not.

However the first link looks promising:
http://www.elitepvpers.de/forum/heroes-newerth/419952-hon-private-server.html
But judging from the comments it's not even worth the effort.

I have the money, but I'm not paying for a game this unpolished. All these bugs, annoyances, crashes and disconnects... Every single one not too bad, but as a whole just too much.
Yes I know they are going to continue to develop it, but I've watched their progress and they are very focused on the actual gameplay and almost completely ignore UI bugs and other problems. And in case I'm wrong and they'll eventually fix all that I can still buy the game. But I'm not rewarding them for this mess.

I've edited the quotation to highlight the key subtleties that I have recalled. (That was from the beta page. I just checked the beta URL now, but I couldn't access it. How did you do so?)
To me, it's obvious that S2 is trying to make an AoS because they call it "DOTA style gameplay" (a mentino: they're probably ignorant to the fact that it's actually an AoS), not a DotA port.
Thus, HoN is a standalone AoS (e.g. LoL, Demigod, neither of which I have tried but I believe both to be bad from reading reviews) with such heavy inspiration from DotA that many Heroes from DotA have been ported.

I've played two WC3 AoS maps (developed by random gamers, of course), namely Desert of Exile and Advent of the Zenith, in which the two opposing sides had only around 15 Heroes each, but all of whom were balanced with unique gameplay features and viable. It shifted the focus from the metagame to the ACTUAL game, such that in-game play takes significant skill in order to win. I'd be glad to share with you this link: the developer's (Rising Dusk) clan website. Please check it out if you can (WC3).
But, this is going off-topic.

I explicitly agree with this. I'm not arguing against this at all. Instead, what I'm trying to discuss is that HoN should focus on bringing more to the table, more than what DotA brought as a mod, in the aspect of Heroes and abilities. DotA's spells and generally everything were incredibly unimaginative. Boring. Every Hero had at least one spell common to another Hero's spells. If you ask me, it was a Storm Bolt-fest; every concept was reused and recycled and regurgitated and made me feel sick with boredom whenever I reflect back on it. This is much easier to balance than what I will momentarily propose.
I'm trying to push for more unique abilities; unique abilities that would of course be balanced. Puck, KotL, Pitlord - (DotA) Heroes that are actually unique in that they're spells aren't C+P'd from standard Blizzard spells. And, yet, they are all very useful (I dunno about Pitlord though - he was one of the Heroes I would get Crystallis on lolololol). In HoN, this manifests in Heroes like Maliken, Puppet Master, Kraken (to some degree - the ultimate), Deadwood, the Dark Lady (to the extent of 2-half interesting spells and an awesome ult). Before I move on, I make a VERY IMPORTANT NOTE: I'm going for a "unique ability now, balance is easier later and over time" perspective. That is to say, I advocate balance, but I do not let that too heavily divert me from unique abilities.
Maliken will be the first example of what I hope S2 tries to do more frequently. At the moment, his role is a jack-of-all-trades/master-of-none carry/semi-carry/initiator. With the proper items, he can carry. In order to do this, the player needs to be skillfull in staying alive and farming those items. He's a sub-/semi-carry to me since it's obvious there are harder carries than him. But, I shift focus to his abilities. First, his Sword Throw. It's an excellent farming ability, and it's an awesome utility because it slows, goes a long range, and even returns to Maliken, affecting units on the way back, and gives skilled players the capability to break skulls/make rage in certain situations. His Sword of the Damned/Life Essence and his passive attack speed buff synergize, obviously, and his activated buff/passive for his sword also synergizes with his sword. These three skills alone open up a wide range of capabilities for Maliken while at the same time being unique (comparatively, to DotA and DotA ports - you should see what people can do in other AoSs, it's crazy-cool). Lastly, his ultimate, which makes him a capable initiator (though not excellent like someone such as Behemoth). Not only that, but his ultimate's Fear debuff could even be used as a channel breaker, and pseudo-stun to catch runners (in those early-game situations, of course, when there are fewer team-fights). The Fear debuff is an incredible pseudo-stun that has so many subtleties to it that imaginative players can easily use to break games. (I compare this "pseudo" ability to speed Vultures and Zealots. Zealots would rip Vultures to shreds if not for the fact that Vultures can be microed to annihilate Zealots.) Here, i would imagine that one would argue that Maliken's Fear ability is "too random" - this, I cannot argue against except that it ultimately creates a stronger game with players who are more capable of adapting to ever-evolving situations; no plan that makes it to the battlefield survives the conflict. But I also argue that this compares to Syllabear from DotA, in which the pseudo-number generator could be toyed with to produce better results; players should be allowed to demonstrate their skill in adapting and shifting to meet the needs of the scenario.
Moving on to Puppet Master. This is a winner in terms of creativity, unique abilities with great potential, and balance (to some degree; I do not carry authority to say if he is balanced or not, though he does feel too glass-cannony. I would prefer higher health/base lower damage; recall his stats from beta, but with less damage. I digress, though). First, his pseudo-hold. An apparently straight-forward, powerful utility spell. Useless to silence spellcasters, absolute counter to Heroes dependent on movement, e.g. Magebane. But even then, notice some subtleties: if one was strung up by the spell, the good player would carefully maneuver to the edge of the radius of the spell and stay there, preventing the hold from procurring the draw back (you are pulled back to the centre of the area of effect if you move out of the radius). Since it does not lower attack damage, an extremely powerful ranged carry could actually maneuver to strike down a weakened PM with one or two saving shots. A melee Hero could move to the edge of the radius, wait for PM or his allies to approach, and then suddenly turn around and attack once a last time. The hold also synergizes with PM's madness-puppets attack (or whatever the green hand is called). Both abilities work together in different situations. The longer ranged silence, Crazed Pupp's (for sake of reference), could be used in-lane when there are creeps, and can be followed by the Hold. When the PM has a close-range ambush advantage facing a fodder Hero, e.g. Nymph, he could burst out of the fog and tie down the enemy, attack, and then used Crazed Pupp's against the enemy to continue holding on the Hero. In the case of Nymphora, she would do minimal damage with her auto-attack. The PM's CrazedP's alone is VERY powerful against straight-up, non-stunning Heroes in 1v1 situations (e.g. Magebane) which are desparate; CrazedP's does not allow the debuffed Hero's auto-attacks to kill its target, thus allowing a weak PM to win against an equally weakened Magebane (another desparate situation example: intercept Magebane in river, both of you weakened, with DD nearby: CrazedP the Magebane, and bum-rush the rune, and proceed to lay the final one or two shots to kill the Magebane while he is incapable of finishing you). Now, PM's passive. Not very creative, but it's quite unique, even featuring the counter-type of balance to decrease randomness (I like this just as much as I do random-based). In combination with the splash, the powerful holding capabilities of PM, he can deal massive amounts of area damage. Then, his ultimate, the Voodoo Doll. CLEARLY, a very unique, awesome, new ability that opens up a HUGE range of combinations. The potential of it is incredible. Early game, it could be used as an amplifier by an allied Witchslayer/Pyro/Thunderbringer. Late game, it's pure rape from a critical on PM's part. With stuns from your allies, a PM won't have to waste Hold and CrazedP's to keep the Voodoo'd enemy in range.
Deadwood and the Dark Lady. I cannot analyze them as I have done with Maliken and the Dark Lady. All I can say is that Dark Lady is nigh useless without farm and her ult is underpowered (easily negated by a ping on the minimap and a competent team). Deadwood can be a pseudo-carry, but not semi-carry worthy. Best off as initiation and clean-up, with high health. and stuff.

Abaddon/Accused deserves special mention in being Heroes with a lot of potential. I distinctly recall Abaddon being a carry back a few years ago. Maybe I was wrong. Heh.

(Off-T: I just want to mention that I recently was in a clan-hosted WC3 game in which the players had vehemently condemned me for liking HoN, because they believed it to be a poorly balanced game, bad, bad, bad, all bad like DotA was. They called the community "tryhards" (not going to argue), and that LoL was better.)

COMPUTER STILL DEAD; MISS YOU ALL.

First, I didn't say HoN was a DotA port. I said it was a DotA port optimized for competitive play. Context. I googled the S2 Statement from memory.

I have no idea what your point is with that wall. Yes, S2 has done some creative things. You don't get credit for creativity unless it adds to the game, and S2's rarely does. I don't even consider it creative to make spells that do a lot of different things. There are hundreds of viable spells that are original and singular in nature, but S2 just seems to think it's "creative" to combine already made spells or make spells that do 6 different things. Go in game and take a DotA hero like Soulstealer, Devourer, Moon Queen. Look at how complex their skill descriptions are. Then look at someone like Fayde, Scout, Maliken, Balphagore, Engineer, etc. It's 3 times as long. Mashing shit together isn't creativity, it's unnecessary complexity.

Heroes like PM, Engineer, Zephyr, FA, their Swiftblade, Maliken, and Madman are all powerful in a lane and yet have the ability to carry as hard as anyone. You don't see that in DotA because it's a stupid concept. There's no reason you wouldn't want one of those heroes compared to someone like BH or SW or Magebane who can't do shit early game and yet will still get outcarried lategame with equal farm.

- Puppet Master is the longest disabler in the game. He can also carry and has some of the highest DPS in mid-game. Oh, and neither of his disables is channeling, so his massive DPS is unhindered.
- Engineer has the longest range stun in the game. He can also carry and after getting Thunderclaw can afk-genocide a team by tinkering his turret and pressing R.
- FA has a joke of an attack animation and 600 range, plus an 800 range stun. And she can carry, easily.
- Swiftblade had a support skill removed and a carry/anti-carry skill added, making him a huge lategame threat. In DotA, his early strength in lane was compensated by his relative weakness lategame.
- I won't even go into Chipper, Slither, Hellbringer, or Chronos. All considered top or second tier.

Are these heroes fun to play? Sure, I love Engineer. But he's a stupid concept and he doesn't add to the strategic metagame because he's good in literally any team you pick. Want to push? Tinker makes towers melt. Want to turtle? Tinker makes our towers rocks, and his turret next to it will melt you. Then he can solo your team lategame. Want a strong double stun lane? Not only is his stun 1000 range, it can also push someone out of position and where you want them to go. Want a ganker? A low-cooldown ultimate that purges, slows, and deals damage in a massive AoE. Ganker: check. Oh, and he has the best projectile speed in the game and a solid base damage and stat gain. It's like someone at S2 set out to see how many broken concepts they could put on the same hero and then tried to balance it.

There's a reason you have seen a large number of S2-made heroes at the top of tier lists since the start of beta, and it's not because they're creative. It's because they're poorly designed and their versatility makes them inherently overpowered.

I know this isn't of much concern to the HoN community, but it does concern the ex-HoN players. LoL's servers are being flooded by ex-HoN players and now Riot Games has shut down all of them due to overpopulation. Just goes to show how much people like free things...