1+3 is not just used to set up your teammates, I know I can set the web up well enough to where I can attack and he can't(though easier said than done). I also simply do not see dwebs effect being negligible once you hit 200 mana. I forgot exactly how much it takes away in its duration, but I believe it to be over 100. Paralyzation + taking away a players ability to defend with spells + the fact they cant even manual under dweb or use things like reavers that spawn very close = too good. You should only be able to pull something like that off in gang bangs like medic+volt.It's one of those unwritten rules like never giving mutant a stun.
I'm easily in the top 5, and I can say that Moose is easily in the top 10.

Also I feel like I'm the only one here that can empathize with you about begging moose for a bugless M3. But right now I'm kinda pissed at you because moose got the "I actually feel like fixing TS" bug for a little while again, but I fear that is now gone.

Also, I'd like to hear more about the USWest tourny u said something about, I'd like to actually play in one. My only advice would be not to make my mistake of using M3 over MT. I regret that a lot.

-Never said pros opinions are irrefutable whatsoever. Where did you get this from. What i said was get opinions and imput from the pros, and the general TS community. Getting feedback from randoms and guys who dont TS much is not going to cut it (This is not, I repeat NOT A FLAME). Get feedback from the pros, the guys who are dedicated and develop the current meta-game, not randoms.

To further prove my point:
There are really bad opinions all over the place but, this was the closest one I could grab. The point is here, that, you are taking an opinion from what i assume, a guy (The Random), who played iceman (The Pro), spammed HP as bat and suicided into cannons in an attempt to do something asanine. Yet he has the opinion that the firebat needs to be more skillful, but has no idea how to play it. Is this not the definition of irony? You are surronded by guys like this.

Heres another example:
Assassin L3 OP'd? Thats cute. More inexperienced talk. Like i said, sure they may have some opinions that are valid everyone does. The problem is though you are surronded by guys like this. Talk to the pros, reach out the pros. Stop having inexperienced guys like the two above examples dictate what little input you take in from the players. I'm not saying "SCREW THEM LISTEN TO ONLY THE PROS", not at all. Listen to everyone! All i'm trying to say is stop surronding yourself with randoms and inexperienced talk.


-CAFG and Iceman, one being a tourney champion and one being in the TOP 5, stated they wanted a bugless M3, aka they would like to have the old bat back. I wonder what Maxx, another pro, TS champ, would have to say about this...[/end sarcasm]. Point is those are THREE pros, right of the back who want a bugless M3. Making something weaker to the point of uselessness IS not acceptable. Many people have spoken about the bat being pretty, bad, I just elaborated on why he was so bad.

-Filler text devoid of substance? Heres one, M6 Assault, Filler hero devoid of substance: Make Scourage, chase with scourage, hope for the best, Useless L2, useless end game presence, Hope to get lucky with L4 vs morons. Pretty much countered by all. When the bats chronic uselessness becomes evident after the first 4 minutes of the game, it becomes problematic.

-Pros would naturally give better ideas on heros than Randoms and guys who play TS occasionally and go on about how LM is overpowered. Pros can tell you about balancing issues, critiques, changes, meta-game scenarios and such compared to say some random who played TS ocassionally. Again, most pros arent about this: "LOLOLOL IM PRO DM, MOOSE GIVE DM +100 PER UP". You seem to not give the pros any credit that would want to better the map.

*NOTE: Moose i hope you dont edit for length or unecessary quotes but i needed to put up the examples to prove my point. Thank You.

Post has been edited 11 time(s), last time on Jul 10 2009, 6:29 pm by Genocidal.Legend.

I am aware that you did not explicitly say this. This is the connotation I derived from your words, if you will. Let me know if you don't understand why I would say something like this.

What happened to what "everyone" and "the TS community" wanted? Make up your mind between public or professionals.

Calling the Assault a filler hero devoid of substance is devoid of substance. The "substance" in my context refers to substantial meaning within the language and words used.
Are you trying to mock me or make an argument? I won't counter anything because I don't care about the M6 Assault anymore. We can start a fresh debate on the M7 Assault.

I am aware that the pros are not going to suggest ridiculous powerups to their favorite heroes. You still have not addressed:
And yes, I will add this at the end of every post until you answer it.

I am letting you know now, why would you say something like this?. Faz-, the self pro-claimed best mech pro, has some of the worst opinions around and i refute his views and perspectives all the time. I refute your points to, and since ClansAreForGays said you are easyliy top ten, meaning you are pro. So why would you say something like this?


When i say everyone that means the community (Pros,Decents,even randoms). I admit the paragraph was worded a bit awkward, My apologies. The general point is, stop surronding yourself with ONLY randoms and newbie talk. Get the pros input, get those who do not come to SEN input, reach out beyond the SEN community.

You can keep repeating that same paragraph all day. I have already answered it in the above post. Pros arent going to try to skew thier own hero even more, or not admit something may be a bit op'd, if they want to better the map.

You can nit-pick, quote and side-step all day but this is the Bottom-line:
Stop self-serving the map, to what you feel is ideal, and reach out beyond the SEN community for opinions. As I said before if you do not want to do this, I will gladly take on anyones offer to change the map for the greater good of the community without your input and hand in making the map. I will be more than willing to help lay a foundation of a perfect TS map we can all rally around and go on from there. Again, I play temple siege, I like the map, I want to help, I am active in the community and I am a fan.

I do not want to play Moose Siege, where you feels one thing is so OP'd he feels the need to change it without the consensus of the community. Do not worry though, you already have a community Moose, that is a great start. You have ShredderIV, Dark_Marine, Faz-, and Yoshi all lined up and waiting to play Moose Siege. It will be a spectacular success. Here is a tip, when you make M8, tone down the LM it is OP'd.

I am sure people who are tired of the back-and-forth, clowning around, and the useless updates will whole-heartedly agree.

Post has been edited 12 time(s), last time on Jul 10 2009, 7:41 pm by Genocidal.Legend.

Okay.. Usually I'd stop arguments like these before they got full blown...
But I didn't because both parties are making valid points...

Anyway... There's no need to go on with this. It's just a game and we all should just have some fun...
It is hard to completely and perfectly balance something... and it is probably impossible for everyone to agree on a single balance...

I feel that everyone who was part of this argument about pros and Firebat sucking and what not should take a step back and look at Temple Siege as a whole. Rather than dissecting each spell and each hero, we have to look at the game itself. Questions should always be asked similar to this order:
1. Is the hero Fun?
2. Does the hero have its own niche.
3. Is the hero capable in a team... What role can it fill?
4. Is the hero overpowered/underpowered in a team. If so, what things can be changed to make him/her better. Do these changes affect its role in the team. Do these changes affect its niche. Do these changes affect its ability in 1v1?
5. Is the hero overpowered/underpowered due to its counter against specific heroes? If so, what things can be change to make him/her more/less powerful/linear/can endure more and etc..

Anyway... I'm starting to dislike the fact that ppl dissect the heroes into bits while looking at it as a team or as a whole in the game.... I, myself, can be accused of this... So, without reading all that, the game itself caters to team gaming, and I would rather have the discussion move that way.

It is also because of this that there's many changes in v1.5.

As a side note... To those people that think I made these changes in v1.5 for the Sake of change... bugger off! Every change has a purpose.

Unholy speaks wisdom with ...'s at the end, hear him! Unholy also has a full inbox, he is popular, love him!

Jokes aside, is it ok if I made my own version of TS?

First, a small band-aid patch to 1.4M7:

The currently known bug is regarding the elimination message purple (P4). If he is eliminated, the message will appear when P5 is eliminated because I didn't change the player when I copied triggers to fix the elimination messages.

All those interested in hosting M7 should redownload.

---

The difficulty cannot be understated.

Unfortunately, there is a certain area where fun and (slightly) overpowered overlap.

I agree. The "overall power" of a hero should be judged before it is compared to each individual hero.

---

For M8:

• Put Warrior's shields back down to 100? Maybe a 120 compromise? Did he even need the shield compensation for reduced HP? I've heard a lot of talk about 150 being too much.
  
• Give Assault the Dropship back for L3.
  
• Give Assault a (heavily modified) Firebomb for L2.
  
• Assault's L4 will not be Nuke, but I would appreciate input and debate on what it could be.
  
• Special Ops seems to have a good current setup with L2 and L3. There has not been much clamor for returning to the old L2 or L3. (well, other than when Sniper Rifle was L2 and Special Ops was the new LM! )
  
• Special Ops L4 will either be Nuke or open for debate. If we so please, we can just remove Nuke and simply give both Special Ops and Assault new L4s?
  
• Do HP + 20% for Medic's L4.
  
• Implement functional anti-hack.
  
• Change Medic L2? L3?
  
• Redo the capture system? Save this for M9?
  
• Change Summoner spells?
  
• Change Light Mage spells?
  
• Add Physicist?
  
• Enlist a terrainer to fix some imbalances in the terrain?

Post has been edited 6 time(s), last time on Jul 10 2009, 8:41 pm by Mini Moose 2707.

Genocidal, you seem to be missing the point. It's all well and good to say that something is bad, but that doesn't fix it. We know the M6 assault sucks, you're probably the dozenth person that's told Moose. However, most of us agree that the Dropship+Nuke together sucks too, for various reasons, so we think the classic Assault isn't the right way to go, either.

So far the only SOLUTIONS you've given are literally exact echos of what someone has said earlier, meaning you don't even need to be posting unless you're giving reasons that the Dropship+Nuke combo isn't a problem.

If you think an idea presented by someone else, such as myself, is bad, give reasons why you think so. Try to avoid these logical fallacies which your posts have been rife with thus far, so that people might actually take you more seriously: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority.


As for new spell ideas for vastly underused options to balance classes against themselves, I had a bunch of time at work today to be lazy so I thought of some interesting spell changes. I'm really sort of blanking on what could combo well with the Firebat so these are really unique ideas.

My only ideas for the Assault were:
L2: A fire wall where he spawns allied invincible firebats in his place as he runs. They need to hold position, though, and I'm not sure if this is possible while still allowing them to attack... Spawn a flame trap under them too, or don't allow them to attack, that might still work. This could be used to surround someone, cut off an escape route, and definitely more. They should spawn for about 10 seconds and last for another 5 seconds or so after they stop spawning. To trigger, just spawn one on the firebat's location anytime he's not in that location, then recenter it.
L3: I can definitely agree that the Dropship is probably better served as the Assault's L3 than as the Marine L4, and it would combo well with the next suggestion:
L4: I'm pretty sure I've said this before, but a permanent marine squadron (3? 5? 7? at 18+1, and a full mana medic too) summon. It's similar to the spawn conversion, but a spell that requires spawns to be nearby is much less useful, especially as an L4.

This means that the Spec Ops would need a new L4, and I don't think nukes would be good for him unless someone's Laser pointer idea could be triggered, which I don't know how to.

Other than that, underused spell replacements/modifications:

Summoner
Modify L1 max lings based on game type (at start). 1 opponent = 4 lings max; 2 opponents = 6 lings, 3 opponents stays the same.
L2 creates a queen above the Summoner. It has enough energy to ensnare once.
Modify the L3 to add both life and mana to the summoner, and make it more obvious how it works in the text.
L4 stays the same.

This would encourage the summoner to do something besides sit in his base; ensnare plus Zerglings is incredibly powerful, in addition to his consume, plague, and dark swarm, plus burrow already being highly useful for a good offensive summoner.

Medic:
L1: Stays. Allow killing your own medics as suggested if you have not already done so.
L2: Stays. Also should "disable" spawns and already cast spells within range (Dropship, Lurkers, DT's, whatever.)
L3: Stays. Also makes nearby allies invincible for 10 seconds!
L4: Medic heals to 100%, allies heal to level (or +20%) and have negative effects removed.

This sort of combines all the ideas that have been suggested, or those used by Unholy. I would love to experiment with this Medic, it would initially seem to be a more fun hero to play.

Light Mage
Still needs a teleport to be a decent hero. My suggestion is:
L2: The teleport should probably have some sort of offensive power too, like spawning Dragoons when it's finished, or Dragoons along the way, or something to make it not require L1 or L3 to be used too. I think a speedy observer or speedy shuttle would be the best options for controlling it, at 6-8 seconds.
L3: Reavers, moving to L3 and going back to a higher damage (by giving players starting Reaver upgrades, not by making the spawns do more too).
L4: Transform into Invincible Dragoon plus Reaver Blasts, or transform into an Invincible Reaver with Dragoon Blasts.

Archer
L2 or L3 become Guardian semi-chaingun and Summons Hydras for the other. I'm not sure which would be better where. If hydras are L2, lower their stats.

Get rid of Drones, they're not needed anymore with the dropship+nuke combo being separated. It wasn't really worth it for them to be used except for nydus in the first place, Sunkens were always taken out almost immediately and they took too long and too much mana to get running. If you add the razings change, they will be worse than useless.

DM
Feedback to 55 or 60. Other than that I don't really think anything needs to be changed here.

Mech
Machine shop idea has already been voiced many times, I won't repeat it but I still think it's needed to stop Mech from being such a ridiculously hard counter to every melee unit.

I think the other heroes are well-balanced.

One final change that might be better than the razings change but solves the same problem: Killing enemy spawn gates simply automatically gives you experience for kills anytime units would have spawned. Similar to controlling a warp gate, this would give you an edge without making it a huge one or a game-ending one, and it allows you to kill the gates WITHOUT hurting your ability to level and/or finish the game.

I welcome (logical and well constructed) critiques.


EDIT: Didn't see your post, Moose. I think I hit a lot of your propositions anyway.

If you add the Physicist (which is still a dumb name), I think you should also add a Sniper/Phantom unit in the same go, as well as modifying the capture system so as to get all experimentation out in one fell swoop. However, I'd wait on all 3 of these additions until the initial 12 are well balanced and agreed to be versatile and fun.

Perhaps you could use a Ghost as a "Pilot/Sniper" and give him Terran air units for attacks, such as (These may very well be horrible, I spent literally 2 minutes typing this):

L1: A single Yamato
L2: Valkyrie as a make-shift transport? Probably some ghost spell in here wouldn't hurt, either.
L3: Wraith chaingun
L4: BC fleet air strike, similar to Archer's L4 except they don't fly at you and ruin the spell.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jul 10 2009, 9:00 pm by FaZ-.

It's very difficult to keep them close but not in the way.

We can't spawn flame traps. We can continually move them, though. They would have to be invincible. Also, Flame Traps only point down-right or down-left, which I don't like.
Spell idea...
Mobile Turret: Moves an invincible Floor Gun Trap to your hero. It remains permanently (or maybe some "long" time like 30 or 60 seconds) until the spell is recast. ... Now that's map control. I forget if they use Terran Infantry upgrades... either way, depending on the damage this might not actually be a bad L2 for Assault.

My only fear is that Assault will become too Summoner-esque with this. It's a good possibility.

Me neither.

Summon pet queen ala Dark Orb or a one-shot deal?

Time to redo some alliance triggers.

I am really afraid this will break a lot of triggers if things were just removed. Also, it's hard to inhibit spells in progress via trigger that don't have a unit corresponding on the map.
(Do summons like Lings and Dark Orb and Vessel count?)

Fierce. Whatever happened to that Rally spell turning medics into marines that we were tossing around awhile ago?

Does the LM stick around for this teleportation process? I don't really want to overload him with spells incorporating invincibility.

IMO, it's too much like a super Light Barrier. I need that Dragoon anyway. And we all remember the transform-to-Reaver spell that was Mech's L4.

I favor L3 for the semi-chaingun and Hydras to L2. I'd like a new L4 if this happens.

Indeed it has. I need to play around with it a bit.

I came up with this idea in my head, but don't remember if I posted it. I would probably put a respawn time on the gates with this.

Even though I rarely play it now, I'd still like to ask.

Is the trigger for the Dweb

"P12 brings Dweb to location Hero P1"
Or
"P1 brings Hero to location "Dweb".

You could make Dwebs more effective in such a manner. But, I haven't checked updates or anything.

When D-Webs are placed and stay creating an area of effect, they use the first. (current) Now they also now use the smaller hit-detection location used in Volt L1 hits instead of the older 2x2.
When D-Web was a one-shot check, it used the second. (M4-M6)

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 10 2009, 10:12 pm by Mini Moose 2707.

Just as I predicted, Faz- coming in with the lame ideas again. Then, he proposes making the medic with L3 invincible and disabling all spawns with L2, man this guy never ceases to amaze me, as if she wasnt already a top tier unit. This doesnt suprise me at all, coming from a guy who thinks LM is op'd and losing 3v1 to volt with Mech w/ map assims. This is useless, I'm going to find way to perfect the map, you guys can sit here screw up Moose Siege, I'll go play temple siege.

This is what I mean by "no substance". You have asserted that you do not like the ideas but provide absolutely no reasoning or justification.

You have attacked FaZ- but not his argument. This is the logical fallacy known as ad hominem.

What about my ideas?

I just did this in about 5 minutes, it seems to be exactly what I'd want. Maybe you can spawn the Firebats as neutral until the spawning stops, then give them to the player?

Fire Wall

Meh. Easily avoided. Would be wayyy too good for taking out structures/gaining exp, and hell you could even capture with it. THIS would turn him into a summoner.

I don't see that happening simply because this is a level 4 spell. At that point in the game this would not be able to feed well unless it's hugely rushed, and then the lack of upgrades will make them easy pickings for enemy heroes. I think it would work if we found the proper number of Marines.

One shot. If it's a pet the Defiler has no reason to leave the base.

Yeah, the idea was to make it like any other stun in terms of removing spawns. Those don't break the game, so I don't see why this would. And yes, summons would count (assuming they count for Sin L2, War L3, etc.). I think that's a yes, except I'm not sure about that being an air-remover.

Still possible, but this seems to fit more with the "assist" role that the Medic plays, and hoarding medics just doesn't seem like a sane strategy. I think this would make it see some use over the L4 at certain times; could save a retreating/stunned hero, etc.

Good point. I was thinking the flier would be attackable, a la the observer for the Earth Demon in 1.5, but no, the LM would not be present. I think stunning the LM when killing it would be excessive though; simply not spawning the Dragoons at the end would be a sufficient penalty.

Since Light Barrier wouldn't exist anymore under this build, that's the idea. I should have specified, however: this would be a 15 to 20 second type deal where the Mage would basically just kill anything near him. As a glorified Light Barrier, it would work well, and you could probably re-use the same dragoon from the Teleport.

That was my initial thought, but there were legitimate complaints that this would lead to a summoner-Archer, to which I replied "Robin Hood." To which I actually replied that the max should be low for an L2, no more than 3-5.

As far as a new L4, the mutalisk salvo isn't a bad idea at all, it maintains its role of basekill. It's just not archery, because they run at you which is annoying as hell. If you want to modify it to just spawn the initial outer group, then let them be controlled for the duration, it would be a great spell.

How would that work...? Respawning the gates would allow you to kill them multiple times, getting your exp per spawn multiplied as well? That's interesting and trigger intensive...

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Feb 24 2023, 12:35 pm by Decency.

You know why i dont provide a reason anymore is because, all if not most of his ideas are bad. Ive have read the forums thoroughly and ive talked to many people, and they all agree his ideas are bad. Are you serious, A top tier unit ALREADY, the medic, and he wants the L3 to make it invinicble. This is ludacris, he cannot even begin to comprehand the imbalance that this alone would bring to the meta-game. I will say it right now, edit this if you want, he is not good, he doesnt even grasp the fundamentals of temple siege. Again Moose this goes back to what i was saying. A guy screaming "LM is OP", 99% of the time will come out with warped ideas or ideas that are just horrible because his perceptions of the game are just so bad that he will never be able see what the game really needs and what the game doesnt need.

Your ideas, however, are not always bad. In fact some i agree with. Though just so self-serving. I'm tired of this back and forth, talk to pros, stop talking to Faz, stop surronding yourself with the noob talk. Reach out and communicate otherwise you will get things like this.

"L3 MAKES NEARBY HEROS INVINCIBLE FOR 10 SECONDS AND ON TOP OF THAT SHE HAS FH! LETS NOT FORGET HER L2 DISABLES SPAWNS. SO BASICALLY SHE COUNTERS EVERY SINGLE HERO IN THE GAME. FUN FUN FUN"

Just no. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. INSANELY BAD.
And this is coming from the guy who says: "NUKE AND DROPSHIP IS SO OVERPOWERED LOLOLOLOLOL"

Medic is already a top tier unit. Leave it alone.

Faz-, go play good people, stop playing noobs.
Moose, stop entertaining this guy.

EDIT: I will give credit where credit is due, the guardian chaingun idea is good, he needs a longer range spell especially when retreating vs an L3 ling, otherwise the rest of the post is garbage. See the 1% shined through .

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Jul 10 2009, 11:20 pm by Genocidal.Legend.