L2 and L3 have two totally different uses. Carpet bomber is mainly used to drive the Assault around the map and stun and kill. While cluster grenade was used to kill things from a distance spawns and such without sacrificing your dship, especially against his hardest counter Hydras,Gols,Goons (Hydras L3,The Hydra itself,The LM L3,Mech when he 2hits Dhsip, or mech 120). Also it is used when the spawn owns his DSHIP. Cluster grenade was a spell used to in conjuction with teamates and against unapproachable units without the need to sacrfice your DSHIP. It wasn't redundant at all. Volts spells are not redundant at all either, each one has a specific purpose, which is why volt is one of the more balanced heros in the game. Cluster nade was used to get rid of spawn from away places, which would otherwise put the BAT/CB in danger. Also use to combo with L1 for even more strategic purposes. Cluster Grenade is even more crucial end game when heros have huge ups, and where CB would become feed. You send in the nade, web, then CB for the chainstun due to their huge ups. Also note the nade is much faster than CB which has more strategic purposes for killing enemy spawn and such, again bat was used as a versitile stunner/spawn controller. Each one of his spells has uses.

The same is true with volt. L1 used to set-up into L3, then L3->L4. LM's L2 Reavers are used for training and heavy damage in one go, While LM's L4 was used to keep his hard counters (which is basically everyone) away from him, hitting them with repeating huge damage, while he retreats, or keep huge waves of spawn at bay. Every one of these set-ups has uses.

NOTE: M7 Seems alright, but why reduce the max zergling count, doesnt make much sense, it was perfectly fine with 12. Esepcially now since Warrior L3 has been fixed. Seems a bit unfair for summoner, and no summoner is not OP'd with 12 zerglings. Also why increase Rines HP, Sniper Rifle makes him invinc, saving him HP in the long run 4000 would have been fine. Though, thats very minor. Warrior Shields to 150,L3 works now, Lings down to ten, almost seems like summoner has a new hard counter lol.

Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Jul 9 2009, 4:56 am by Genocidal.Legend. Reason: Corrections

Spell ideas:
Assault L4 - Laser Guide - Creates a ghost, that is computer-controlled and commanded to nuke the current position at the bat, nuke and ghost are given to you instantly after. This makes it so you have to be at your nuking destination. You may still have nuke build-able and give it to the comp for nuking AI (but you may not want to) This condenses all nuking units and commands to one simple spell cast.

Assault dmg. spell - Barrage of Shells - Creates 8 firebats that surround you for 1 shot. High damage, quick attack, very close range. Also, Assault could "warp" to enemies that are extremely close before spawning bats, but enemies may expect it and set for a counter. This spell could replace Firebomb, with a higher % hit, close in version. Could work great with stun grenades, if you are close to enemies.

Protection spell? - Blast(Riot) Shield - Creates a science vessel with 0 energy, that constantly centers onto Assault, which makes hims slower, yet invincible while out. The vessel will automatically run out after a time limit. Helps him to rush bases/dodge dmg spells.

Assault/Spec Ops dmg. spell (For wraith spell)- Chaingun - Constantly creates wraiths in rapid succession above your hero to shoot anything nearby. May be inaccurate, but kills spawns really fast, and shoots heroes after. Slows your hero down while shooting, so heroes may run from it. High dmg and could also shoot air.

Alternative Blitz spell? Maybe a Spec Ops spell - Paratroopers - An invincible shuttle/dropship at your temple and flies to you, then poofs and spawns some rines or ghosts.

Hey Beer i really like that riot shield idea, not bad.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 9 2009, 12:42 pm by Mini Moose 2707. Reason: Again with the useless quote of preceeding post. (last warning.)

If people are going to ask why for every change, then I might as might as well stop working on Temple Siege. Everything is apparently fine the way it is, change is absolutely despised. Changes are more often than not met with revulsion at the notion of being forced to adapt. I then log on to read exaggeration that would imply I've changed wine not into water, but into a desk or something even more outrageous. At that point, I'm just too busy to map anyway because I have to type justifications all day. I really feel I'm pointing out the obvious here: This is frustrating. This is not worth my time. How skilled is the skilled player if he refuses to adapt to change and re-learn a class?

And that's what grinds my gears.

Summoner: I feel that Summoner is too powerful in late game without even using L2. The best way to lower Summoner's power is to decrease his max lings.
Special Ops: I've played it enough in M6 and I felt it needed more HP. That's really all there is to it and I was glad to have it when I killed a Light Mage and won the game with 10 HP left yesterday.
Warrior: His L4 was not as useful as I wanted it to be. I also felt he had too much HP. An HP decrease with a shield increase fixes both. The change also increases the incentive to get L4 in the first place.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 9 2009, 12:59 pm by Mini Moose 2707.

Flash's riot shield and chaingun spell seem really cool. The only thing i'd have to say about the riot shield would be to give it a certain amount of hp too, so he can't just run all the way past cannons or something by spamming it, but can use it to get away from certain heroes and buy him some time.

[quote]
Not to be insulting or anything. When you changed the bat, some overpowered combos came on the rise, bat was essential to stop some overpowered combo's, now he is useless. Maybe you you just couldnt see this, but I could. You keep saying, "I Felt", "I Felt", "I Felt", ever try "Hmm I wonder how the players feel?". Maybe that would work? The game needed tweaks, maybe a spell or two, but not completely new heros and completely new spells. Changing things on whim, or changing jsut for the sake of change doesnt do anything meaningful. I asked why to see you reasons behind the change, not to be offensive.

You say summoner was too powerful late game, yet, EVERYONE has access to his universal weakness, AT ALL times (I.E: Reavers). Again, doesnt make much sense. I'm not saying he needs a boost, no far from it, but he definitely didnt need a decrease in lings. Completely unescessary. There are TS pros everywhere and you should go and ask them what they think and collaberate with them. Lets make this clear right now anyone who thinks LM is OP'd is mostly likely bad, and most likely wont have any good ideas, this isnt a subliminal shot toward anyone btw. The bottom line is The GOOD players, The Players who KNOW what they are talking about and the Mapmakers need to collaborate. Not just the mapmaker.

For example:
You want to change DM, hook up with r0xmebaby on USWEST, he probably has the best DM and is very good at DM strats also he is hosting his own tournament. Iceman16 has probably the best mech on USWEST, ask him if you want to make any mech changes, he is also a tournament champion and plays regularly and probably has a wealth of information you can tap. StalinG has one of the best Volts on USWEST, you can ask him about Volt. You want to change the bat,Then go ask o0MaXX0o , another tournament champion, about what should be changed and get his input and despite his complete asshat status, he has the best bat. My point is, go directly to the good players and people who know what they are talking about. This is no offense to SEN of course, because people here have good ideas too, but you need to reach the good TS players not guys who just play occosionally and are mapmakers. We need the good dedicated players, this is what is missing from the equation.

These minor updates and odd changes are a bit fustrating. If this keeps up the map is going to die and so will the community we need a definitive TS map. A workining definitive TS, wtih normal assims, working spells, orginal stats, glitch free, with all 12 ORIGINAL HEROS, then we can proceed to make changes accordingly.

If you want I can give you a whole list of what should be changed to make the game 10x better, or at least give the game what it needs.

Again, lets make this very clear, guys running around claiming "OMG LM IS OVERPOWERED" are not going to cut it in the Idea department or the skill department.

Post has been edited 5 time(s), last time on Jul 9 2009, 7:43 pm by Genocidal.Legend.

Moose, why don't you just include reasons with the updates when you make them? This would seem to solve a lotta the problems...

Then those combos need to be addressed. Honestly, if Volt is "one of the most balanced heroes in the game" as you claim, then I would like to see EVERY hero weakened accordingly to a new balance.

The players? I think you meant to say the "professionals". You continually discredit players of even above-average skill level left and right.

Apparently I shouldn't be working on this map.

How about learning? Science? Has all of humanity's progress, discovery, and advancement been built upon the careful reasoning of "professionals" who rarely make mistakes?

You claim that people didn't think Assault wasn't OP until MaXX played it. How can you presume that the LM is different? Furthermore, you assert that LM is underpowered yet defend his spell arrangement. Even worse is that you use the opinion of LM as a basis to immediately disqualify anyone who would say otherwise from making suggestions.

What is the incentive or motive of the "professionals" of each individual class to admit that their chosen class might be even slightly overpowered?
Are they truly professionals if they are apparently unwilling or unable to adapt?

Make changes accordingly after this?
At that point you wouldn't want to make any changes because:

Go for it.

1. The update list would get "TL;DR".
2. Debate would not cease.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 9 2009, 8:17 pm by Mini Moose 2707.

These are the same people who post huge debates on what changes should be made. I think the problem is people put a lnt of effort making these posts amd then you totally ignore them and change things based on what YOU see as wrong. Now I don't doubt that you are a skilled TS player, but you don't spend hours every day playing multiple versions and constantly comparing them, do you? These are the people whose opinions you need and they are all too happy to give them. You need to eat some humble pie and start taking other peoples VALID CRITIQUES and do something about them.

So you look at the previous posts and you can conclude that the fbat needs changing. So you asj the people here what they think, and you ask Max what he thinks regardless of his personality, until you have worked out what to change. Then you do it. And remember, it won't kill you to put things back the way they were if thats what skilled people think should be done. Now in the fbats case, they want it put back the way it was but with a weaker l4. Or they want a different l1 or whatever. And you have to realise that you will make mistakes and people will tell you what should be changed and you should do it after you and all the others have worked out EXACTLY what should be changed.

Edit
On reading your above post I agree with the asking the pros thing. And whats wrong with endless debate?

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 9 2009, 8:25 pm by zany_001.

I think you guys need to give Moose some slack here. He works his butt off to balance Temple Siege so that everyone can enjoy it, not just himself. Saying he ignores criticism of the map is a bit far-fetched, just because he doesn't respond to every post doesn't mean he's not reading them. I'm sure Moose spends just as much time as everyone else playing Temple Siege to make sure he makes the right changes.

Just because someone thinks something is unbalanced doesn't mean it is.

Lets clear some things up here first:

-What are you trying to say, volt is over-powered or underpowered. Well whatever it is, Do not touch volt or any other heros on the basis of volt. Hes a great hero who doesnt need to be changed. K thx.

-Never said LM was underpowered, i said it was the worst hero in the game. Never said he was weak either, he is in fact very strong, he is just the worst hero in the game.

-Make a definitive "Temple Siege Classic" map, then go tinker around with one that you would like to see. We need one map everyone can unite around unti la better perfected map can be made by UU, Yourself, or someone else.

-MaXX made the bat look OP'd because he is so good at it, and basically he set the bar on how the bat should be played. Thats why you have guys running around saying "OMG THE BAT IS OP'D". Since this is the least played hero people have know idea how to counter him, and hence the misconceptions about nuke and such, again when you are not that good at the game you have grave misconceptions about the game.

-People used to think LM was OP'd until people got better, and realized he was the worst hero. This was back in V1 btw, now we are at 1.5 and people still are claiming LM op'd (Though very few).

-Professionals are willing to adapt, but give them something to work with. For example, the new bat. Total garbage, how is someone supposed to work with that?

-Yep, if you say LM is overpowered 99% of the time you are bad at the game, and most likely wont have great ideas. Yes I said it.

-You want that list, no problem I'll draw it up. Please dont ignore it.

-@ZANY_ZCDF: SUCH A BEAUTIFUL POST I WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE,MY GOOD SIR, YOU DESERVE A STANDING OVATION AND I AM SO SERIOUS. (Not sarcastic at all zany, you echoed my sentiments exactly. Thank you )


Nobody said that he didnt, in fact what you say is true he does work his butt off. Though I think he may have lost sight of what is needed. That new bat is a critical mistake cause now it has unbalanced the game. I didnt say he ignores criticisms, usually its hit or miss .

Just because somone thinks something is unbalanced doesnt mean it is? What are you trying to get at? Sounds like you trying to defend him from something, from what i do not know. Care to elaborate because this not an attack at moose at all.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Jul 9 2009, 8:55 pm by Genocidal.Legend.

My 'professional' 2cents on bat:

Lv1 = dweb minus the mana drain. Add 1 simple action to the trigger that slows heroes under it - Remove all ghost from location. no different from the mine capping rine fix. Also, can the units underneath be slowed even more so?
Lv2 = a combiniation of his current lv3, and LM's Lv1 except without the invincibility. around 10 bats spawn around him for a few shots, also trapping him. Or moose's idea that involves the spawn. Not really concerned with the Lv2.
Lv3 = Classic.
Lv4 = Classic.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 9 2009, 9:36 pm by ClansAreForGays.

I dunno clans, I dont think he should have a damage spell. L3 and L4 are fine to me. I like the L1, But why is everyone so against a L1 that mana drains, it combos so nice with carpet bomber.

The problem isn't making the spells work together in a way that they compound their effects, the problem is lv1+lv3 perma-stun. Being able to permanently lock down a unit with yours shouldn't be possible. I'm not saying Lv1 + Lv3 isn't good, I'm saying it's too good. As for the Lv2, I really don't have feelings toward it, although I'd rather it not be something that the dropship already does x10 better (like grenade was).
I always said bat was retarded strong before M versions

L1+L3 is used to set up your teamates, because bat cannot attack through web. Also at about 200 mana, the web starts losing its effectiveness.

I never meant for the Riot Shield to be invincible, it only makes bat invincible.

I think that Summoner needs some drastic spell changing to make his other spells more useful, and lings less OP.
If ling limit was going to be reduced, I think it should go by spell level.
3 lings for l1 (forcing him to up lvl not just mana spam)
5 for l2, 8 for l3, 10 for l4...

As for l2, Summoner needs a better combo-able and overall, more useful spell. Perhaps one that improves the use of lings, or use of Summoner himself.
I think you could move Dark swarms with triggers, if you can...
l2 - Hellish Grounds - Constantly centers all dark swarms that the Summoner touches, onto the Summoner, (and could also drain mana from enemies) To make a more battle-summoner. If you don't have a DS already out and you cast, then the spell will activate on the next cast of DS.
Using infesteds l2 - Blister Swarm - Creates 4 infested terrans at each corner of the Summoner that die after 5 seconds. Infesteds should be a bit stronger in attack with this. This also allows the Summoner to fight, and won't sacrifice lings for IT's.
l2 - Shadows - Constantly creates hallucinations of zerglings around you for a short time.

l3 - Dark Portal - Creates an overlord without speed upgrade, that summons lings when you cast l1, if you have 20-25 additional mana. (won't exceed ling limit)
l3 - Hell's Gateway - Removes all dark swarms, then on the next dark swarm, a mobile grid of 9 devourers are made, which creates 3 invincible mutants under each devourer, then after a few seconds, the lings die. Of course the devourers are removed. It would be like a long-ranged, wider-area, fury swipe.

Beer I do, agree summoner should get some better spells to be less linear. I do not agree however summoner is op'd simply because every hero has access to his weakness, the reavers.

I really like the idea of fake lings as mentioned by beer. Maybe instead you could create 1-2 hallusinated lings by each one. It would help so much and will add more versitility to the summoner. It would interfere with infested terrans, though.

You would be right that Summoner is easily countered by reavers, when Summoner is fighting by himself (or maybe with DM). However, Summoner would usually be paired with a unit that can fight well, meaning that they would kill the reavers and exp from them. Reavers could also be expensive. Summoner has best map control and could very easily kill sims and base, far faster than anyone else— pretty much at the point where it's ridiculous. A pro Summoner, could have easily have 200 more exp within a few minutes, as well as start killing the enemy base within 10 minutes. Most of the time, enemy heroes will have to hunt lings while Summoner still grind— They won't have exp fast enough, nor enough money to make reavers.

It is impossible for two diametrically opposed views on a change to be appeased.

Allow me to eliminate all ambiguity here. It is not my goal to make a perfected classic 1.4. When I am asked to do that, I am asked to make a map that I do not want to make. Mapping does not work like this. I am an autonomous human being and I am not the mapping bitch of either TS professionals or the TS community.

While there is endless debate, my time is finite.


Fact: I had not witnessed MaXX playing Assault before I changed it.

Odds are, based on our discussions thus far, I can already predict 80+% of what your list would contain. I will extend you the benefit of the doubt. That said, you would be wise to post it before I quit TS.

By the same token, I think that you have lost sight of my intentions for this map.

We are only dealing with subjective opinions. Hero X being the best, the worst, or just mediocre is not a fact and is not an objective truth. Spell X being overpowered or underpowered is not a fact and is not objective truth. No matter how much they are spoken of as concrete truth, they are not.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jul 10 2009, 6:25 am by Mini Moose 2707.