I noticed that Yoshi (apparently) started a Galaxy Editor wiki, and I thought that our wiki should be optimized for SCII use asap. This would probably mean splitting it into two parts, just so people who came here for Galaxy Editor don't end up with 20 articles about SC and 1 about SCII in their face (basically, an option in settings to decide which wiki front page you want; SCII, or SC. Nothing else needs to be segregated, really). That people chose to post in here rather than in here is telling that we need to start converting more of SEN to be SCII-convenient.

I guess I (and/or IP and/or Moose) will make a new header link next to Starcraft called Starcraft2, including everything what sc1 currently has but just filled with information and files regarding sc2. Good or bad?

I think you should just make our wiki a forum and split it into a sc1 and sc2 subforum.

There is a SC2 section in the wiki already ... Except it only contains 'Reference'.

I seriously doubt this suggestion will even be considered (and I've no doubt it's come up before), but perhaps a switch to MediaWiki could simplify this task. MediaWiki's templates are perfect for portals and consistent widgets in articles, the category system would be extremely useful for something like this, and overall, it seems to be vastly more maintainable than the current setup.

*prepares for vehement negative reactions*

Hey david, I agree. Our wiki has terrible layout. Don't worry. Devourer will get to it eventually.

The current wiki is good in some respects, for a small site like SEN where the articles are generally very short. One thing I like about the current wiki is the discussion pages are threaded and personalied; much nicer than media wiki's system. The really bad thing about the current wiki is the weird "draft in progress" system, where if anyone goes to edit an article that has an existing but unsaved draft, they will edit the draft instead of the current version of the page, and if they did not own the draft, when they submit it the draft version will still exist, so the next edit will again be to the old draft version rather than the new page.

@Lanthanide: I see your point. MW talk pages can be threaded, if participants in the discussion manually indent their comments -- but unlike SEN's system, it requires manual effort on the part of each poster. (You can indent a line of text in a MW page by prefixing it with ":".) On the other hand, a much wider range of formatting is available compared to SEN's wiki's talk pages (where I can't seem to get even a line break to work).

(I'm surprised that I'm not being shouted at right now. I figured that the fact that SEN has its own wiki system meant that everyone here loved it and wouldn't trade it for legitimate SCII beta access the world no matter what, and that's why it's been kept. I was actually a little worried when I posted earlier.)

Here are the key(est) concerns regarding any potential switch to MediaWiki. (If the admins wish to consider this idea, but don't feel like doing a ton of Googling.)

More formatting, including (nerf'd) raw HTML and (inline) CSS. Means we can present information more efficiently, but it also steepens the learning curve.

On-wiki images. MediaWiki allows users to easily upload images, and makes it easy for sysops to manage them. No more broken images!

Templates. MediaWiki offers the ultimate way to reuse wiki formatting. Templates are pieces of wikimarkup (technically, they're full pages) that can accept parameters, perform simple logic, and be included on pages. This, combined with the ability to use raw (nerf'd) HTML and CSS in pages, makes it easy to create flexible and reusable widgets, like Wikipedia's infoboxes. The code for invoking a template is very short, too ({{Template name|parameter|parameter}}). (Try to imagine how much space and time it would save if, for example, a template were used for units in Unit Information. We would just call the template, pass it the stats, and it would format each unit for us. A ton of massive table row codes simplified to a couple curly braces, pipes, words, and numbers. Beautiful.)

And here's where things go a little bit downhill.

No (default) integration with SEN's user database. It might be possible to get the wiki to share user databases with SEN, but I would have no idea how to do such a thing, or if it actually is possible.

Categories are more flexible but less manageable. For example, on MediaWiki, to delete a category, you have to de-categorize its members. (And if someone edited the category (because yes, categories can be pages, too), then you have to get a sysop to delete the category page afterward.)

There's a ton of formatting, making it easier for users to format articles inconsistently. Most wikis have a "Manual of Style" to combat this. (The one used by Halopedia is especially good, in that it includes standards for different types of articles (characters, weapons, etc.) and even has copies of each article type's infobox.)

It's not competition, seriously. I made the wiki mostly because I want a 3rd party open wiki separate other SC2 communities for the purpose of posting some tutorials, reference, data, etc. The idea being that contributers would participate on other forums if they want to, and it'd simply be JUST a place for looking up sc2 mapping info quickly. It purposely uses mediawiki and lacks any community functions for the express purpose of making it low maintenance for me, allowing me to actually contribute content rather than be stuck coding a site all the time.

Basically all of the content that exists there right now is contributed by DK, he's pretty awesome with hacking the MPQ to pieces and finding out mapping data before we even have a friggin' map editor, which is the reason why sen's wiki isn't being used, DK is capable of things not many people are. He's doing a great job getting it started, I've tried to poke around in the MPQ but I didn't accomplish much, so I'm basically waiting for the actual map editor enviroment to mess around with so I can compile more data.

Mediawiki I feel is more established and organized, whereas a community driven wiki that's custom coded doesn't have that. Although it can, given a lot of work is put into it, time I'm not willing to spend on that.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Mar 4 2010, 3:02 pm by DeVouReR. Reason: Test, sorry :)

I doubt that IP would allow 3rd-party for the entire wiki and I don't want either.

I'm not trying to be nosy, confrontational, or a dick, but I'm curious... What are your reasons, Devourer, for avoiding third-party tools for the wiki?

Anyway... I believe something should be done. Our website is completely unoptimized for a switch to a new game. We need to segregate the wiki and expand the DLDB to allow a person to shift focus, or at least to simply make it equally easy to work with in both games. The SCII forum needs to be expanded slightly, as minor editing, modding and support for the above is already possible. Maybe even a melee forum where people can discuss different concepts for melee maps, if not necessarily work on them yet. It'll happen soon. SEN doesn't have the people to quickly and easily switch over to SCII mapping; the website's software is one of our major caveats.

Other websites already make mods.

Nothing out of the ordinary, just some texture recolors.
I've done more in the single interesting topic about SC2 that SEN has, oh yes, just one.

Other websites are already having modding contests *cough*

I understand that it's fairly simple; nevertheless, that they did it and not us shows that the members of Hive Workshop seemingly have a greater interest in SCII-creation than us. Combined with larger technical capability (experience programming to create triggers) and the like, I feel that we really need to get our SCII things going software-wise to help prod the people to make more stuff.

Also, maybe change the default skin? To make the best impression on potential newcomers, our best skin should be displayed to guests.

No you don't

But don't look at me, my point was that I myself too think that SEN wasn't, isn't, and, if it continues to be this way, won't be ready for Stacraft 2.
It's not that we don't have the motivation to start producing knowledge at SEN, I myself have quite a bit to share. What's stopping me from doing it now?

Where would I put such things? All we get is one forum for SC2, just one, not even a whole category with SC2 mapping, SC2 modding, SC2 chat (w/e) while other communities have entire boards, specifically designed sections, screenshots, videos, podcasts, reviews, replays, battle analysis, blah blah blah.

/rant

Yes, Corbo, I do understand. I've made a couple of (admittedly uninspired) skins for WCIII and messed with modeling for it. Seeing as they use the same terms in the above thread, I would assume that the basic idea is the same.

And I like your ideas. I'd make a separate SCII mapping forum group for general help, production, etc, a SCII Artistic forum group for sound creation, skinning, modeling, icon-making and the like, and a forum group dedicated to melee strategy and mapmaking.