How much does a DM spawn with though oli?

Medic counters DM way too well...all you need is to hide in cannons and train.

Also, nuke is countered by i believe 9/8 members of the cast.

Medic needs that nerf because of her ability to hide in cannons with her exceptional range.

Medic with that nerf wont be countered as easily, but wont counter that much anymore, making it even.

Not talking about capping phase. Or starting. Power med eats more than half the cast at capping. Thats a given, hell regular med owns more than half the cast at capping.

What im saying is she has a few decent hard counters.

Summoner: Absolutely nothing she can do. Period. DPS/Sheer Numbers.

Bat: Bat steals all her feed and if she dares poke out shes owned. Not to mention, if shes training top/bottom He can Cap kill so easy its insane. All throughout the game he is still insanely useful vs her. Nuke is directly countered now in the M3.X series. But even then cloak still owns half the cast. And bat trains better than more than half the cast. Nuke is always viable vs med teams. Because shes too slow to stop it herself. Which usually means 1 has to stay back and guard, which can can turn eveything around. Bat by himself shuts her down solo.

Hydra: FH or NO FH. L4 windup > medic disable. Depending on matchup, L3 can be viable route. 30 mutas at like 15 would destroy her. wtih stunners like BAT or WARRIOR who clear spawn and stun her, its pretty much gg because the L4 will clean hit for immense damage.

DM: L3 gimps her, and the wind up eats through disable, and u have snare and mael, make her use l1 to try and cure if she doesnt she dies either way, team comes to help. Also forgot to mention your l4 windups eats thru disable too, and with snare/mael its guranteed. Basically, as DM you are guaranteed to land a gimp spell on med, just be good with youre timing.

Volt: Lane splash, steals feed, l3. Though unlike the others when she has FH, hes pretty much owned cept for L3 windup vs disable. Although L4 harass is decent as u will be doing decent damage auto attacking her, but its risky. Also L4 auto attack into an L3 is a decent option as well.

I can see why people would call for a nerf. Though i never saw FH as an op'd spell whatsoever, as so many can really shut her down, it just all about smart team picks. dont think if u pick and rine and ling (Which she both stomps F.Y.I ) you are going to beat her.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Oct 22 2009, 12:03 am by 2GunsUp.

Lets talk about this on a pro level, and assume that the people we're talking about are 1. experienced. and 2. are playing with a team they know and have trained with.

One match i faced in the TS tourney was mech/medic/archer (not completly sure on archer, but i believe so)

medic was able to train mid, and we were warrior/dm/mutant so we couldnt do anything.

Medic, being a good player, never stepped out of cannons range as she didnt have too.

Got fairly decent upgs and fh pretty quickly.

Still never really needed to leave her base to do anything, and was able to heal her companions on a regular basis.

If we tried to gimp her, mech and archer would be on our case immediatly, archer l1 spamming and mech l4ing/railgun.

Wasnt much we could do.

Congrats on the tourney entry hope you had fun . Now to the subject on hand .

She out lanes all three of you. First of all so its a no go. Also none of you chose a splash to siphon her exp (Dm isnt Decent splash w/ storm).

Best thing you could have done was own the archer asap. Mael and rush warrior l3 destroys him + ling l2/L3. DM l4/l2 destroys him completely. In fact with your team archer was hard counter to hell. He should have been the first one to go.

Med got decent ups because:
1. She outlanes every single one of you
2. You let her get mid w/ no splasher, which is no-no.

Second how did you lose mid? Snare + ling and warrior just destroys mech. Mael + ling and warrior destroys hydra completely. If u lost top and bottom understandable, but how could u lose mid with your team set-up. You have the perfect set-up to gimp the mech, plus 2 of the godliest stallers (Ling and Warrior). also you mael for Hydra and Medic. Warrior and Ling l2 + mael is instant gimp vs hydra. Also snare destroys all 3 (medic and mech being the worst hit by it).

Also Warrior stun guarantees DM will land an l3. Despite disable. Warrior and his l3 is faster than meds disable, so dm can waltz up and l3 her, hit her with snare. If she disables you both doesnt matter Ling comes and destroys with lurks/l2/l4 while all three atk. Or just do the same to mech, just make sure you have L3 and L4 to tank whatever he throws at you, and dm can do her thing. L3 destroys mech so badly.

FH and Mech always tough break. we can always agree on that. You probably woulda had to base race them, which you guys could win very easy cause mech is garbage at base racing. Or mass Huge amounts of spawn, i.e Reavers, but not very viable. Seems like Snare and L3 shoulda kept you in the game, as warrior and ling is beast combo. Maybe i can see replay ?

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Oct 22 2009, 12:41 am by 2GunsUp.

We had top/mid, lost bottom. That being because i thought we had and exp'd instead of helping.

Warrior and ling is beast combo when ling isnt splashing the heck out of your teammates.

She hid at her base cannons on mid.

Also archer was spam l1 archer, so not much we could do, mael wasnt helping us much.

1mael = death for that hydra, didnt matter if he spammed l1. If it was THAT BAD have dm save up 2 maels, and use the first mael to L2 him, which means mutas cant attack and the second one to keep him in place for longer. So warrior and ling can do their thing. You really shoulda gimped that archer. He was hard countered by all three of you. Stun and DM L3 destroys mech, not to mention you rape at night.

To your credit though FH and MEch is always horrible to deal with. Though i dont see how that archer was alive to make it in time for FH, he was destroyed by all three of you.

2GunsUp, just because something should work in theory, it doesn't mean it's certain it will happen. :S

Dont forget mech in vult form coming to help.

@Yoshi of course. Things like Skills, Psyche factor, map dominance, hero picks e.t.c.

@MEMEME: Yea true but you save youre stun for the mech, while dm maels. But like i said i wasnt there so.

On a side note probably woulda been better to swap out warrior with Volt, or summoner. Summoner raped all three

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Oct 22 2009, 1:04 am by 2GunsUp.

Dark Orb teleports to me with 56 energy and is healed to 100% shields and hp whenever i l1. If you meant the dark mage herself, then she spawns with 0 energy at the beginning of the match, and 20 energy (last time I checked) whenever she is killed.

Edit: To 2GunsUp
I will never, ever, beat medic as Dark mage unless I have help from my teammates. By the time I get my l4, the medic will have her l4 and therefore I can't kill her in time before her teammates show up to help. That and other reasons that I am too lazy to go through the effort of typing them

This is common knowledge, FH med requires help from teamates. Though a landed L4 from DM is most likely gg.

Assume she has no armor, and broodlings have fourteen, no, 18 upgs, as that is pretty far in assuming DM gets l4 reasonably fast.

Kk, assume medic has used full heal (these are the conditions that favor dm the most, basically) and has fifty mana left. As soon as DM l4, disable is coming out. If DM l2 then its over because nothing else can be done once disable is out.

Broodlings spawn at a rate of one per deathcount seems reasonable, but it may be one per two deathcounts. Basically, they spawn faster then teh med can move, and there are a ton of them.

Assuming the med has 5 upgs on attack by now, which is very little, she will be doing 19+25 damage, effectively two shotting broodlings. So no chance of her living there.

It takse approximately thirty seconds for the average char to move from any base to the top/bottom temple, blocked by no spawn.

The teammates will be on the move (unless stunned, which probably wont happen) immediately.

Assuming range of aggressive top base to defensive bottom base, itll take them about forty seconds.

Broods can attack approx two times a second, with eight broods attacking at once, maximum.

Thats 25(broods attack)x2(attacks per second)x8(broods attacking at once)x40(seconds until help).

Thats 16000. So assuming you can get a no armor medic with just fifty mana and partners that are pretty much the whole map away, the medics dead.

If the medic has lets say seven armor, however.

Thats 11520. Medic is still dead, but could essentially save herself with use of one full heal and a cloak.

Lets assume that the partners will reach there in twenty seconds (thats still pretty far away, mind you)

Thats 4800, leaving the medic with 1200 hp as the teammates arrive,and assuming horrible circumstances, thats still escapeable from.

Now imagine a game with pros. A medic that is outside will always have atleast one partner near them, if not both, or them both at most ten seconds away.

The medic will have reasonable mana, and a fast mana gain. Should also have cloak.

We can take the damage down to about (non calculated) 2400 damage, not including for armor.

See what im saying?

This is all assuming you get close enough to the medic to l4 before she disables you.

So much for Theories. Try doing that in a good game. There is no way for a dm to beat a medic in a lane, other than to splash.

But we all know how well that works with dm...

in m3.3, the ver used for tourney, storm was 20.

Dm in a good game gets l4 off due to startup, thats a given.

not in the slightest. Medic has an easy time avoiding the aoe on the dm's ult, unless she gets close, in which case she is bad. And medic's silence has a much higher range, making it so she can time it to stop dms ult easily.

Really, there's no arguing it. Play the game with good people, adn you will never see a dm get an ult off on a medic in the lane.

and M8 will probably be the new tourney v, which means storm will be up again, and even at 20 nrg, medic can 1 hit creeps way more easily than dm.

My team had a good DM on it...

And in the tourney, which is pretty much about as close to good people as youll get unless you win it and play the champs, it was gotten off.

Medic cant really run away while casting l2, as such allows her to get ensnare l3.

tourny entries arent always the best players. And your last sentence makes absolutely no sense to me. Make it clearer please.

If medic moves toward the DM or is not moving at all, the L4 will hit if it is cast by a good DM.

If medic moves away, assuming there is no cannons/people nearby, she risks getting ensnared and getting hit with a spell of DMs choice afterward, probably l3.

However, a good DM will enwsnare the medic first, thus insuring the l4 hits.

Any good medic will not stay out of cannons long enough to be hit by the dm's spell.

And in a teamfight, medic will easily just heal her partners or disable you.

Plus, any good medic against a dm will go attack ups until she can 1 hit most spawn, and then just go armor to counter the l4.

If there is a teamfight and the medic is in it, DM will get the L4 off unless DM already got one off, in which case it depends on mana levels.

Medic should never be in a teamfight though.

Dont forget DM can cloak and run up to medic too.