Staredit Network > Forums > SC1 Map Production > Topic: Build-A-Ship Workshop RPG
Build-A-Ship Workshop RPG
Aug 10 2008, 7:36 am
By: Madroc
Pages: < 1 « 10 11 12 13 1416 >
 

Dec 12 2008, 4:19 am Biophysicist Post #221



UPDATE: We have decided to change the vHP to Observers. Whenever you level up your defense stat (Terran Infantry Armor/Protoss Ground Armor/Zerg Carapace), your Observer's HP goes up.

madroc, we're going to use medics to blind the obs, right?



None.

Dec 12 2008, 4:28 am Madroc Post #222



First post updated with observer info, and yes, we will use medics to blind the obs so that the vision is not increased and so that burrowed units will not be easily detected. I'm glad you're catching these things :)



None.

Jan 12 2009, 10:16 pm Biophysicist Post #223



I found my notes where I had written some ideas for building function lists. Do you like my lists?

TERRAN STUFF


PROTOSS STUFF


ZERG STUFF


Anyway, I just realized something: The Science Vessel, Queen, and Overlord wouldn't benifit from weapons upgrades! For the Vessel, I was thinking I could set its energy to 125 periodically, and decrease the time with every weapon upgrade. For the Queen, I can detect when it casts Spawn Broodlings, so I can use vEnergy and make its energy regenerate faster with every upgrade. Idk about the Overlord, but I don't like the Overlord anyway.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 13 2009, 6:13 pm by TassadarZeratul. Reason: Stuff



None.

Jan 13 2009, 10:14 pm Madroc Post #224



Nice list. Based on your list, here are my lists. Explanations of differences between mine and your's are listed below. Also any changes are underlined. Tell me what you think!!!! :D
TERRAN STUFF


PROTOSS STUFF


ZERG STUFF

-(just a draft)

My arguments and suggestions

Feel free to dispute annnyyyy of this




None.

Jan 14 2009, 12:39 am poison_us Post #225

Back* from the grave

Dude, it looks like you got pretty damn far into this to give up. If you want any help with anything at all give a shout and maybe I can help. This looks like it would've been a pretty good map.




Jan 14 2009, 12:52 am Biophysicist Post #226



... What? We haven't given up on this map.... I'm never going to give it up!

Where did you get the idea that we were giving up, anyway? We're not. :P



None.

Jan 14 2009, 1:31 am poison_us Post #227

Back* from the grave

oh, I feel stupid :blush:
Earlier in the post I saw something Madroc posted that I took as an admittance of defeat...sorry for the mistake.




Jan 14 2009, 3:46 am Biophysicist Post #228



Quote from Madroc
Nice list. Based on your list, here are my lists. Explanations of differences between mine and your's are listed below. Also any changes are underlined. Tell me what you think!!!! :D
TERRAN STUFF


PROTOSS STUFF


ZERG STUFF

-(just a draft)

My arguments and suggestions

Feel free to dispute annnyyyy of this
1: Sure.
2: You said 20 seconds in the OP. :P But sure.
3: I don't really care, sure.
4: Yes.
5: Sure.
6: I don't like that idea, but I don't dislike it either. Up2u.
7: *shrugs* Good point.
8: Sure.
9, 10: The reason for using the ICC was so people had a convenient way to use their skill, and changing to the Defiler Den would break that... Also, there are three Larvae at the Hatchery, so we might have problems with people morphing too many Defilers by accident. I was thinking morph Overlord to create the ICC (it spawns lifted over the Hatchery).
11: You origionally thought of that, not me. :P And I don't like your new idea because it would be hard to activate quickly and means people can't have more than one Nydus Canal at once.
12: Didn't we already have this discussion? We decided to leave to Corsair and Valkyrie as almost entirely air-to-air, which I like because it makes the ships more distinct.
13: Sure.
14: Sure, but switch their names, too. :P

And I still don't like the Overlord because of the upgrade thing.



None.

Jan 14 2009, 4:42 am Madroc Post #229



2. Haha :P my bad, it should probably not be 20.
6. OK :) I do like it.
9. well.. ok I thought it over a little more and.. I am still not sure I completely agree with you, although I am really close to the edge on that one. My only qualms with it are that it would be nice if the player knew just how much SPACE each thing takes before the player commits to it. Also there's risk that the player might decide to spawn three overlords, which would kind of suck. I suppose it's the same thing with the defiler tho. And it is pretty easily remedied, actually, even tho its still kind of annoying. Well, since I'm on the edge about this, I'll let you push me either direction like usual. If we do decide to use the ICC as the feat, I think that it would be slightly more intuitive if the queen triggers the creation of the iCC instead since the overlord is known as a fairly basic unit, but I'll leave that up to you.
10. Well, if we decide to use the ICC for the feat, we have the defiler mound left unused. I don't really like the function it has now, it's pretty useless imo. I can't really think of a function right now, have any ideas?
11. Good points. I recommend that we use mineral loss to detect it being built instead and I don't think it's a big deal that it is sort of hard to activate because the ultralisk should stick around for a while. Agree? If not, do you have any other ideas for it?
12. Oh right, I forgot about that..I hope it's ok that I kind of disagree with this decision now? :D It's just that it would be nice if the map was playable in single player for every ship. Right?

About the Overlord, kind of the point is that you upgrade the ground guys that you can drop that you make from the hatchery, right? Issues with this include:
- The overlord person might be confused and try to upgrade air attack. This is easily remedied by giving the player a unit owned by a computer player that has 255 upgrades (this works right?) (we'll just have to remember to not give him any air units that are affected by upgrades)
- Other zerg players might be confused and try to upgrade ground unit attack. This is also easily remedied by giving the player a unit owned by a computer player that has 255 upgrades (again we'll have to make sure that non-hero ground units are the only ones affected by these upgrades).
- Other zerg players might try to create like hydralisks and zerglings and ultralisks from their hatchery. This is remedied by refunding the player and destroying the unit whenever the player tries to create one. It's not a very good remedy though. Can you think of a different one? This is kind of bad... Oh! what do you think about making the Overlord's vespene gas counter be on a whole different level? Zerglings could be the cheapest at 500 gas, whereas other players would have at most 200 gas at any time, right? What do you think? This would mean that the overlord's skill would have to be different or just weaker than the other players' skills.

PS - Lol @ poison :D




None.

Jan 14 2009, 5:13 am Biophysicist Post #230



Quote from Madroc
9. well.. ok I thought it over a little more and.. I am still not sure I completely agree with you, although I am really close to the edge on that one. My only qualms with it are that it would be nice if the player knew just how much SPACE each thing takes before the player commits to it. Also there's risk that the player might decide to spawn three overlords, which would kind of suck. I suppose it's the same thing with the defiler tho. And it is pretty easily remedied, actually, even tho its still kind of annoying. Well, since I'm on the edge about this, I'll let you push me either direction like usual. If we do decide to use the ICC as the feat, I think that it would be slightly more intuitive if the queen triggers the creation of the ICC instead since the overlord is known as a fairly basic unit, but I'll leave that up to you.
I don't really care what unit is used to spawn it. As for people not knowing how much space it would take, we're telling them it's an ICC, so they should know. :P I don't think that would be a problem.

Quote
10. Well, if we decide to use the ICC for the feat, we have the defiler mound left unused. I don't really like the function it has now, it's pretty useless imo. I can't really think of a function right now, have any ideas?

Nope, no ideas right now...

Quote
11. Good points. I recommend that we use mineral loss to detect it being built instead and I don't think it's a big deal that it is sort of hard to activate because the ultralisk should stick around for a while. Agree? If not, do you have any other ideas for it?
No, I don't have any ideas for it atm. Maybe just scrap the tendril all together? (Actually, maybe we could change the Defiler Mound to the Tendril [resource loss detection]?)

Quote
12. Oh right, I forgot about that..I hope it's ok that I kind of disagree with this decision now? It's just that it would be nice if the map was playable in single player for every ship. Right?
I don't think letting people use every ship in singleplayer would be worth making it if it means that valks and sairs would basically become scouts with a different skill. Besides, people still couldn't use Science Vessels or Queens in singleplayer.

Quote
About the Overlord, kind of the point is that you upgrade the ground guys that you can drop that you make from the hatchery, right? Issues with this include:
- The overlord person might be confused and try to upgrade air attack. This is easily remedied by giving the player a unit owned by a computer player that has 255 upgrades (this works right?) (we'll just have to remember to not give him any air units that are affected by upgrades)
- Other zerg players might be confused and try to upgrade ground unit attack. This is also easily remedied by giving the player a unit owned by a computer player that has 255 upgrades (again we'll have to make sure that non-hero ground units are the only ones affected by these upgrades).
- Other zerg players might try to create like hydralisks and zerglings and ultralisks from their hatchery. This is remedied by refunding the player and destroying the unit whenever the player tries to create one. It's not a very good remedy though. Can you think of a different one? This is kind of bad... Oh! what do you think about making the Overlord's vespene gas counter be on a whole different level? Zerglings could be the cheapest at 500 gas, whereas other players would have at most 200 gas at any time, right? What do you think? This would mean that the overlord's skill would have to be different or just weaker than the other players' skills.
Giving units does not transfer upgrades, unfortunatly. Do you have any other ideas for the Overlord?

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 14 2009, 4:32 pm by TassadarZeratul. Reason: :nevig nosaeR



None.

Jan 14 2009, 3:20 pm Impeached Post #231



Good to see this going up again.

What's progress?

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 14 2009, 4:45 pm by Impeached.



None.

Jan 14 2009, 6:50 pm Madroc Post #232



Edit: @Impeached and everyone else, i'm working on the terrain here and there which is about 80% finished (probably the draft will be done by the end of the month) and tassadarzeratul is slowly but surely doing the triggers, which are about 25% done, maybe less, i suspect they won't be done for a while yet. As you can see we are still not quite finished concepting yet.
Quote from name:
Quote from Madroc
9. well.. ok I thought it over a little more and.. I am still not sure I completely agree with you, although I am really close to the edge on that one. My only qualms with it are that it would be nice if the player knew just how much SPACE each thing takes before the player commits to it. Also there's risk that the player might decide to spawn three overlords, which would kind of suck. I suppose it's the same thing with the defiler tho. And it is pretty easily remedied, actually, even tho its still kind of annoying. Well, since I'm on the edge about this, I'll let you push me either direction like usual. If we do decide to use the ICC as the feat, I think that it would be slightly more intuitive if the queen triggers the creation of the ICC instead since the overlord is known as a fairly basic unit, but I'll leave that up to you.
I don't really care what unit is used to spawn it. As for people not knowing how much space it would take, we're telling them it's an ICC, so they should know. :P I don't think that would be a problem.
Alright, let's do that then.
Quote
Quote
10. Well, if we decide to use the ICC for the feat, we have the defiler mound left unused. I don't really like the function it has now, it's pretty useless imo. I can't really think of a function right now, have any ideas?

Nope, no ideas right now...
Alright, I'll try to think of something..
Quote
Quote
11. Good points. I recommend that we use mineral loss to detect it being built instead and I don't think it's a big deal that it is sort of hard to activate because the ultralisk should stick around for a while. Agree? If not, do you have any other ideas for it?
No, I don't have any ideas for it atm. Maybe just scrap the tendril all together? (Actually, maybe we could change the Defiler Mound to the Tendril [resource loss detection]?)
Well that would mean you would only be able to use the building thrice in any game.
I'll try to think of things for the Canal while I'm thinking about the Mound.
Quote
Quote
12. Oh right, I forgot about that..I hope it's ok that I kind of disagree with this decision now? It's just that it would be nice if the map was playable in single player for every ship. Right?
I don't think letting people use every ship in singleplayer would be worth making it if it means that valks and sairs would basically become scouts with a different skill. Besides, people still couldn't use Science Vessels or Queens in singleplayer.
Well if we made it so that every ship had an alternate attack then the Science Vessels and the Queens WOULD be able to finish single player. And valks and sairs would still be very different than scouts because their main attack will be air-only. Only if the player heavily invests in and upgrades the turret will the person be much like the scout, and even then the attack is still very different than the scout's and the air-to-air attack will be much more effective than the scout's, not to mention the specials and feats. What do you think? I really think its worth it.

Quote
Quote
About the Overlord, kind of the point is that you upgrade the ground guys that you can drop that you make from the hatchery, right? Issues with this include:
- The overlord person might be confused and try to upgrade air attack. This is easily remedied by giving the player a unit owned by a computer player that has 255 upgrades (this works right?) (we'll just have to remember to not give him any air units that are affected by upgrades)
- Other zerg players might be confused and try to upgrade ground unit attack. This is also easily remedied by giving the player a unit owned by a computer player that has 255 upgrades (again we'll have to make sure that non-hero ground units are the only ones affected by these upgrades).
- Other zerg players might try to create like hydralisks and zerglings and ultralisks from their hatchery. This is remedied by refunding the player and destroying the unit whenever the player tries to create one. It's not a very good remedy though. Can you think of a different one? This is kind of bad... Oh! what do you think about making the Overlord's vespene gas counter be on a whole different level? Zerglings could be the cheapest at 500 gas, whereas other players would have at most 200 gas at any time, right? What do you think? This would mean that the overlord's skill would have to be different or just weaker than the other players' skills.
Giving units does not transfer upgrades, unfortunatly. Do you have any other ideas for the Overlord?
Damn. Are you sure? Well I guess that only works for computer players. Damn. Do you think we can trust the players to not upgrade stuff they don't know will benefit them (we will have to tell them that upgrading ground armor actually upgrades the observer's armor)


Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 14 2009, 7:00 pm by madroc.



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Jan 14 2009, 7:47 pm Biophysicist Post #233



Quote
Well that would mean you would only be able to use the building thrice in any game.
Why?

Quote
Damn. Are you sure? Well I guess that only works for computer players. Damn. Do you think we can trust the players to not upgrade stuff they don't know will benefit them (we will have to tell them that upgrading ground armor actually upgrades the observer's armor)
I'm sure.

Anyway, I was actually going to use weapon upgrades instead of armor upgrades to upgrade vHP armor, because detecting a weapon upgrade is much easier than detecting an armor upgrade. So, for the Overlord, we could just switch the functions of the Evolution Chamber and the Spire.

Quote
Well if we made it so that every ship had an alternate attack then the Science Vessels and the Queens WOULD be able to finish single player. And valks and sairs would still be very different than scouts because their main attack will be air-only. Only if the player heavily invests in and upgrades the turret will the person be much like the scout, and even then the attack is still very different than the scout's and the air-to-air attack will be much more effective than the scout's, not to mention the specials and feats. What do you think? I really think its worth it.
I don't think it would be worth it. I think it would ruin the point of having valks/sairs/sci vessels/queens if you gave them all the ability to attack everything.



None.

Jan 14 2009, 8:23 pm Madroc Post #234



Quote from name:
Quote
Well that would mean you would only be able to use the building thrice in any game.
Why?
Because the defiler mound can only trigger something three times. OH WAIT, we could kill the mound before the upgrade is finished. Good idea. So the defiler mound will create a strongish ultralisk underneath the character.

Quote
Quote
Damn. Are you sure? Well I guess that only works for computer players. Damn. Do you think we can trust the players to not upgrade stuff they don't know will benefit them (we will have to tell them that upgrading ground armor actually upgrades the observer's armor)
I'm sure.

Anyway, I was actually going to use weapon upgrades instead of armor upgrades to upgrade vHP armor, because detecting a weapon upgrade is much easier than detecting an armor upgrade. So, for the Overlord, we could just switch the functions of the Evolution Chamber and the Spire.
Darn
Wait, why is it easier to detect a weapon upgrade? We will be using mineral loss, right?

Quote
Quote
Well if we made it so that every ship had an alternate attack then the Science Vessels and the Queens WOULD be able to finish single player. And valks and sairs would still be very different than scouts because their main attack will be air-only. Only if the player heavily invests in and upgrades the turret will the person be much like the scout, and even then the attack is still very different than the scout's and the air-to-air attack will be much more effective than the scout's, not to mention the specials and feats. What do you think? I really think its worth it.
I don't think it would be worth it. I think it would ruin the point of having valks/sairs/sci vessels/queens if you gave them all the ability to attack everything.
OK, I definitely see what you're saying, but I still disagree and want to convince you otherwise.
Really the corsair/valkyrie/sci vessel/queen are much much different than the scout and everything else, even with the turret thing. The fact that their main attack that they will be using throughout the game isn't able to attack everything makes them really different to other ships compared to contrasting, say the magnitude of difference between battlecruiser and the wraith. In actuality, most players probably won't even get the turret upgrade for a while, so the early game at least will be very different. I think it's a worthy sacrifice to make it so that those players won't have to rely on other players to help them finish the game, which would be frustrating I think. And of course we would make it so that it's a little more efficient to use the main weapon to emphasize the contrast between the ships. What do you say?




None.

Jan 14 2009, 8:33 pm Biophysicist Post #235



Quote
Because the defiler mound can only trigger something three times. OH WAIT, we could kill the mound before the upgrade is finished. Good idea. So the defiler mound will create a strongish ultralisk underneath the character.
Or just Give it to a different player. :P

Quote
Why is it easier to detect a weapon upgrade? We will be using mineral loss, right?
Yes, but I'm trying to avoid using it whenever possible because it can glitch. As for why it's easier to detect weapons upgrades than armor upgrades, it'll take a while to explain, just trust me on this one.

Quote
OK, I definitely see what you're saying, but I still disagree and want to convince you otherwise.
Really the corsair/valkyrie/sci vessel/queen are much much different than the scout and everything else, even with the turret thing. The fact that their main attack that they will be using throughout the game isn't able to attack everything makes them really different to other ships compared to contrasting, say the magnitude of difference between battlecruiser and the wraith. In actuality, most players probably won't even get the turret upgrade for a while, so the early game at least will be very different. I think it's a worthy sacrifice to make it so that those players won't have to rely on other players to help them finish the game, which would be frustrating I think. And of course we would make it so that it's a little more efficient to use the main weapon to emphasize the contrast between the ships. What do you say?
Well, I'm fine with it as long as the players can't (easily) get enough turrets/cannons/whatever that their turrets deal more damage than their normal attacks.



None.

Jan 14 2009, 8:44 pm Madroc Post #236



Quote from name:
Quote
Because the defiler mound can only trigger something three times. OH WAIT, we could kill the mound before the upgrade is finished. Good idea. So the defiler mound will create a strongish ultralisk underneath the character.
Or just Give it to a different player. :P
Right :D
Quote
Quote
Why is it easier to detect a weapon upgrade? We will be using mineral loss, right?
Yes, but I'm trying to avoid using it whenever possible because it can glitch. As for why it's easier to detect weapons upgrades than armor upgrades, it'll take a while to explain, just trust me on this one.
True, it can glitch. OK, i'll trust you, I think I know what you're talking about, but keep in mind that the only extra space we have is in the bottom right. I would say let's just expand the map but it would be nice if the minimap was kept nice and large.. Also keep in the back of your mind that it is a little bit more intuitive if we use the armor instead.
Intuitive has become my favorite word on this map :rolleyes:
Quote
Quote
OK, I definitely see what you're saying, but I still disagree and want to convince you otherwise.
Really the corsair/valkyrie/sci vessel/queen are much much different than the scout and everything else, even with the turret thing. The fact that their main attack that they will be using throughout the game isn't able to attack everything makes them really different to other ships compared to contrasting, say the magnitude of difference between battlecruiser and the wraith. In actuality, most players probably won't even get the turret upgrade for a while, so the early game at least will be very different. I think it's a worthy sacrifice to make it so that those players won't have to rely on other players to help them finish the game, which would be frustrating I think. And of course we would make it so that it's a little more efficient to use the main weapon to emphasize the contrast between the ships. What do you say?
Well, I'm fine with it as long as the players can't (easily) get enough turrets/cannons/whatever that their turrets deal more damage than their normal attacks.
Right, it would be purely supplemental until the player gets like five of them and starts upgrading it, in which case it could potentially be a main weapon, in which case the player has just built his ship a new weapon :D
I don't think it's bad but we'll have to test it to make sure it's not too easy to completely convert your ship into a bomber (for the protoss turret(archon))/autogun (for the terran turret(marine)).

So I think all we need to do is find a function for the Nydus Canal, Observatory, and Arbiter Tribunal and we're good.

We can even do that as we go.

So I'll make up a final list tonight when I have time.




None.

Jan 14 2009, 8:53 pm Biophysicist Post #237



OSHI-

Archons and Marines can't go on unwalkable terrain. *facepalm* So the turrets need to be changed or we'd get ZOMGUNITUNPLACEABLEGOFUCKAKITTEN!!!!111 errors all the time. For that matter, we could have that problem with ANYTHING that summons ground units. (The Overlord wouldn't have that problem, fortunately, because the units he was trying to summon would just stay in his hanger until he went somewhere where they can unload.)

Quote
True, it can glitch. OK, i'll trust you, I think I know what you're talking about, but keep in mind that the only extra space we have is in the bottom right. I would say let's just expand the map but it would be nice if the minimap was kept nice and large.. Also keep in the back of your mind that it is a little bit more intuitive if we use the armor instead.
Intuitive has become my favorite word on this map :rolleyes:
I don't think it would be a problem if we tell them "UPGRADE WEAPONS FOR MOAR HP!!!" (Remember our audio messages idea?)



None.

Jan 14 2009, 10:09 pm Madroc Post #238



Quote from name:TassadarZeratul
OSHI-

Archons and Marines can't go on unwalkable terrain. *facepalm* So the turrets need to be changed or we'd get ZOMGUNITUNPLACEABLEGOFUCKAKITTEN!!!!111 errors all the time. For that matter, we could have that problem with ANYTHING that summons ground units. (The Overlord wouldn't have that problem, fortunately, because the units he was trying to summon would just stay in his hanger until he went somewhere where they can unload.)
Right, but not if we make it all...... WALKABLE NULL TERRAIN BOO YA
right?
And then create the turret unit somewhere else and move it to the ship's location.
Or would the marine not like it that he's being asked to attack on null terrain.. this needs to be tested... null terrain is weird.
Quote
Quote
True, it can glitch. OK, i'll trust you, I think I know what you're talking about, but keep in mind that the only extra space we have is in the bottom right. I would say let's just expand the map but it would be nice if the minimap was kept nice and large.. Also keep in the back of your mind that it is a little bit more intuitive if we use the armor instead.
Intuitive has become my favorite word on this map :rolleyes:
I don't think it would be a problem if we tell them "UPGRADE WEAPONS FOR MOAR HP!!!" (Remember our audio messages idea?)
LoL okk i guess so but we'll have to yell that one.




None.

Jan 14 2009, 10:48 pm Biophysicist Post #239



Quote
Right, but not if we make it all...... WALKABLE NULL TERRAIN BOO YA
right?
And then create the turret unit somewhere else and move it to the ship's location.
Or would the marine not like it that he's being asked to attack on null terrain.. this needs to be tested... null terrain is weird.
Ah, I see. Gotcha.

Quote
LoL okk i guess so but we'll have to yell that one.
Should I literally yell it? Like "RESEARCH WEAPONS FOR MORE HP!!!!"?

Actually, I could do an armor upgrade detection system if you want, but then we'd need to do something for the Overlord because Spire upgrades still wouldn't help it.



None.

Jan 14 2009, 11:06 pm Madroc Post #240



Quote from name:
Quote
LoL okk i guess so but we'll have to yell that one.
Should I literally yell it? Like "RESEARCH WEAPONS FOR MORE HP!!!!"?

Actually, I could do an armor upgrade detection system if you want, but then we'd need to do something for the Overlord because Spire upgrades still wouldn't help it.
Lol, well maybe, as long as it sounds good. lol

That would be a little bit better. We could just say that if the player upgrades zerg weapons while he's an overlord, he's a dumbass. Plenty of maps use that system.

What would really be nice and intuitive is if upgrading armor ACTUALLY upgraded the vHP's armor. As of now we have no way to increase the observer's actual armor. Feel free to shoot me down, I probably shouldn't bring this up at all, but wouldn't it be better and more intuitive if the terran vHP was a wraith (we'd have to disable attacking somehow), the protoss an observer, and the zerg a scourge? A good rebuttal to this question would be "lol no." :P




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