Hey Unholyurine and Minimoose I got a suggestion about a building. I was wondering about a building that you can make and actually spanw random units? Or effects? Like one heals 10% per 2 min? or one that can effect the other side like it can stop cannons or make them spawn more or give more exp? Just ideas for the buildings.

Music Idea would be good!!! I like that.

ALSO I am wondering if it would be possible to make the SAME TEMPLE SIEGE but on a different map layout? Say snow? or even in space?


-Dalton

@terrain - ask MNX .. but i'm sure it's doable. it's just import n export
@buildings - If i could trigger +10%, then I'd've done it already :C :C... I have been thinking about using buildings... a lot more can be done to them, so all suggestions welcome =o... Spawning random unit'd be too... random.

buff up the spawns like crazyyyy!!!! so heroes can't have equal amount of armor vs their attack so easily. so that makes chasing other heroes more risky because spawns can actually hurt them

If I ever end up making my own experimental version, that's on the top of my list. I'd aim for a lv1 hero only being able to handle 1 spawn wav by himself(no micro) before needing a heal. Which would probably be 90hp broods with 10attack, and 140hp lings /w 15attack. Comp would have 5/5 ups and ling glands(no movement speed). Summoner would spwn is lings with only 80hp(?% change).

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Nov 28 2008, 6:14 am by ClansAreForGays.

or maybe instead of healing you do damage to the other side by 10%, just simply make the new spanws like ie: 90% life? lol
And its true the creeps are so weak, maybe you should either make them stronger or like add a "general creep" leading other creeps every so often or some sort?

Mainly these things are self-evident from anyone playing the map and seeing what character styles are too powerful or easily dominate. I'll explain further for a few examples.

Dark Templar, for example, attacks with a cooldown of 30 frames (SC runs at 24 fps).
Typically I'm doing about 125 damage per attack when I start to hit the temple, having killed pylons already. This means that I'll do 100 damage per hit.

This means that to deal 100,000 damage, I'll need to hit the temple 1000 times. (30/24) = 1.25 attacks per second.

1.25 aps * 1000 attacks = 1250 seconds = 20.83 minutes.

That means I need to be left alone as an Assassin with more than 10 damage upgrades for more than 20 minutes to be able to kill the temple. That's more than 3 nights, and I'm vulnerable as hell during the day, so in reality it's going to be more like 45 minutes.


Now, as for why the marine is overpowered: Mines can be used to absorb photon cannon damage. They take 10 hits from a photon cannon, which has a cooldown of 22. This means that it takes a photon cannon 220 frames to kill one mine, times 3 (one per mine) divided by 2 number of cannons in range = 330 frames to eliminate one cast. The marine when stimmed has a cooldown of 7.5. In the 330 frames taken to kill the mines from one cast, the marine can fire 44 times. Assuming the marine has +5 upgrades (a very LOW estimate, seeing how most people play the marine) this means he's doing 30 damage. 44*30=1320 damage to buildings that he can deal per cast of his L1 spell. That's enough to kill a pylon if he takes a few cannon hits after the fact, or simply casts another round of mines.

Now, say another hero tries to stop him: unless you're a DM or have at least a L3 spell, you aren't going to be able to. The only solution is a tag team, say a warrior to deal damage and maybe a Volt to stun. That'd be nice except that the Marine runs far faster than a Volt and just as fast as a Warrior. In short: +3 upgrades and the amount of life that a marine has makes him crush everything. You've already said you have a fix for this, so I won't address it much further, but I feel that if you made his upper spells more useful he would be a more versatile character. As of now, mines and damage/hp spam are more than enough to let him destroy most other characters with EASE. His attack speed is just too much to handle, even a ling can't keep up because microing it is so easy, plus mines dealing 45*3 damage for a L1 cast that give you more time to shoot.

If you kill enemy warps, you lose your ability to level. You get no significant exp for the raze, if you get any at all, and yet your spawns continue to pour out. The enemy, sitting by his heal, is content to kill whatever comes within range. You (unless you're one of the two counters I mentioned earlier, only one of which is assured to work) can do nothing but sit and attack the temple. 20 minutes later, you might win, but in 20 minutes, your opponent is leveling, and you sure as hell aren't, because you killed the enemy warps. If your opponent can't level enough to kill you in that time span, he didn't have a chance to win anyway.

Say you leave the warp gates, knowing this, and just kill the photon cannons. Well, your opponent is again sitting by his heal. Your spawns are flying right into his base, there's no cannons in the way. This is great for your opponent, he doesn't even have to leave the heal to level.

Say you just kill the pylons, leaving the cannons. Your spawns (who probably take MORE than 20 minutes to kill a photon cannon, at least until Marines) are therefore nice and clustered for your opponent as they batter away uselessly at the cannons. He can walk over, cast a storm, maybe mutas, maybe Warrior L2, or Railgun, or something else, and pick up a ton of EXP in seconds, not having to stray from their base much at all.

HOWEVER, if your spawns are powerful, then when they come pouring into the enemy base, they start dealing significant damage to the temple and lead to a short win. Your opponent won't have nearly the time needed to catch up by killing spawns, because it will take more than one psi storm or mutalisk cast to wipe out 30 zerglings.

You gain HP so nothing can kill you with a quick spell, such as lurker bomb, or DT decapitate. Then you cast 6 muta spawns in a row whenever something comes near you. Your mutas can attack up to three times per cast, times four of them, and they usually do 75-100 damage each by the midgame with their upgrades. That's 900-1200 damage per cast of a L1 spell. It's not worth it to get the L2, L3, or L4 unless you need detection for something. Considering you only need to put upgrades into HP and mana, and perhaps minerals at first, you have far more life than most characters. I really like the 4th spell guardian solution given earlier in this topic. I'd suggest making the mutalisks last only for a single attack, perhaps two. Then you could get rid of the archer base camp (which I do like, but I think it really diversifies the archer too much, you already have mutalisk upgrades, archer upgrades, and mana for drones and buildings). To compete you really need to specialize, and the easiest way to do this is just to not get anything besides your level one, which is what virtually all "good" Archer players do currently.


I don't mean to be an ass with all of the above, but I'm not sure how you've never seen these strategies used if you've ever played your map a decent amount. There are counters, but you have to be the right unit and in the right place, and any player who's playing as these builds knows what to avoid. They are imbalanced. I'd be more than happy to detail my suggestions if you'd like, I enjoy doing so but I wanted to leave the option open to you, as the mapmaker, to solve the problems as you see fit. I'm very sure that they ARE problems, not simply my complaint after losing a game.

As for making my own version, I don't have the time or interest to go through a map as detailed as this and learn the death counters and coding style, and there definitely isn't a need for a third mapmaker of the same map. My question to Moose is very direct, I don't think it's open-ended at all. It merely addresses him responding to my complaints but not mentioning if he has something in mind to solve it, or simply thinks it's a viable build, or something else. It's like giving someone a detailed report and having them go "Yep, thanks." ...

If you feel that a certain complaint is not well detailed, feel free to mention it and I'll go over exactly why I feel something is overpowered or not the best solution. This is a place for negative critiquing, I'm not really here to pat you on the back and tell you what a great job you've done, that should be evident by me taking the amount of time that I have to both play and pick out what I find at fault in the map, and then report it here to you with explanations when needed.

Thanks.
- FaZ-

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Feb 24 2023, 12:27 pm by Decency.

Stopped reading right there. If you think killing the temple should be an easy task for someone with 10ups then we don't want to play the same game. Taking down the temple should be a combined effort between you+your team+your spells+spawns. So pretty much your equation minuses all of that and just leaves a character attacking the building that ends the game when it dies. try factoring more things into your equation. I assume the rest of your comments follow the same logic.


Thought I'd read your last paragraph.
Me and moose rag on urine all day about what we think is stupid, but the difference is that we've played the game enough to know how things are countered and balanced out. And it's pretty hypocritical of you to get upset about our reaction to your criticism, but then tell us to toughen up when we criticize your criticism.

You haven't reacted with any logic. You've just called me a newb, even though you've never played me, and dismissed my comments out of hand. I have played this map a great deal, and dismissing my suggestions with only the reasoning "you're a newb, play more" is pathetic. Tell me why the temple's life should stay at 100,000, for example. Have you played a single game where a team kills the enemy temple without killing the heroes first? I've never seen anyone do it but me, and I've only ever done it once or twice on the 10,000 hp temple as an assassin. Attacking the base is NOT a viable strategy, and considering that it's supposed to be the point of the map, I think that's something that should be looked at as the most immediately needing change.

The temple isn't some exposed building that you can sneak up on, it's in the heart of your base. If the enemy is in there dealing damage, you should be all but forced to respond in the very near future or take damage. I used 10 upgrades because that's approximately when I start having the option of dealing damage to the temple as an assassin. Say I have 25 upgrades, it's essentially the same thing: a next to impossible task. That brings the total to about 200 damage per hit, and still more than 10 minutes of attacks. If you ever think you're going to be able to bring your entire team to within the enemy base and start dealing damage to the temple without any resistance, you're not playing the same game that I am. Unless your team has both the Mech and Mutant to have the speed to flee anything, the enemy is going to deal damage to you, heal instantly, and then come in for the kill as they chase you back to your base. The only time I've ever seen a full team assault happen is with a warrior/marine combo healed by a Medic, about as much raw damage as you can get. We did the damage to the temple that we could, ran back to middle for a full heal, and resumed. That's not at all a common situation.

I'm not saying it should be an easy task, but someone pounding on your temple shouldn't be able to be neglected for 10 minutes without any repercussions. As I've said before, making such an attack hurts your team: you can't level while dealing damage, and you can't kill enemy heroes. On top of that, you risk losing a life, you're as far away from your base as is possible. Any class but the assassin is hugely open to flanks and double or triple-teams. If on top of that there's no chance of you being able to finish the game by making the raze unless they ignore you for 10-20 minutes, there is a serious problem.

DT posed quite a conundrum with the old temple HP/armor. His high damage let him get past that 75 armor rather quickly, and at 8500 HP the Temple wasn't going to last long. It's extremely easy to raid the Temple as DT as the L3 spell makes the temple's computer defenses totally ignore him. A few casts of that and you won't even need the spell anymore and can start saving up for L4s to use on the Temple. (and boy did those rape the old temple HP/armor fast)
So, the Assassin is often times chopping away at your Temple. You're most likely not in your base because you want to gain XP or start working on the enemy's Temple. So, you have to turn around and start running. You're forced to be on the defense. Well, of course, this is assuming you can even SEE the enemy DT to attack him. Then, if you have vision or when day finally comes and danger is headed the DT's way... there's a cloud of blue smoke and no DT. You're forced to stay on defense. Rinse and repeat until you lose. Unless you can kill the enemy Temple really fast. Though, of course, the DT can just teleport back instantly to defend when you're too much of a threat. I'm sorry, but, the whole situation there is cheap. (plus, who ever heard of a building getting assassinated? Or decapitated?)

I won't say the HP of 100000 is necessary... I've already agreed to lower it in the next version I make.

I'm also ready to put in the following changes if people seem to agree:
- Lower damage on Mutalisk upgrades from 4 to 3.
- Lower Mine HP
- Lower Spec. Ops. HP.

Sorry CAFG, but more often than not, you're just dismissing instead of "criticizing his criticism".

Okay Faz.
I see that you're very keen on this, and now that you've explained yourself better, I can reply to your comments =o.

1. 98000 HP temple is just moose's experiment i think.. If i were to finalize it, i'd probably make it 30000-50000 HP with 15-25 armor. I actually need to know the approximate dmg a nuke gives the temple =o

2. Well again, you should think before you act... if u kill the cannons quickly, yeah they'd probably feed ... but by the time you get marines, the spawns should be overrunning the temple... This is why there's an option to upgrade ur spawn AND build diff spawns.

3. Right now, I can't say no to archer's L1 imbalance. I can now see it's there, and I can also see some counters for it. The solution to this... I really don't know, but i'll think it through before submitting the next version.

and yeah, maybe it's ur writing style that makes us think more negatively about your criticism. . This isn't the forum for Nature or Cell journals.
but in all due respect, you love my game, me, and want my children <3, and I greatly appreciate that.

http://www.staredit.net/wiki/Nuclear_Strike_Damage
Basically, once the HP goes below 98313, Assault's Nuke is back to hardcore rape.

i completely agree on the mutalisk damage being lowered, but if youre lowering mine hp i dont think any lower than 4 is neccessary.

Nvm abot what I said about PotC earlier, Fuck yes to Castle Crashers, didnt know all its music was on Newgrounds audio portal O_O

http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/112527

I have to agree with Kevin there. Each time I play public, someone is hosting an older version of 1.4M, and afterward, I always have to come back here to re download the latest.

save the lastest version in a different folder, that's what i do. so when you go to host you can host that version instead of the replaced one.

Seriously... why would you put your Temple Siege downloaded from SEN in the downloads folder anyway? Do you like clicking through more directories (and into one that likely has 500+ files) to get the maps you downloaded from SEN?

I'm going to rename it eventually... but these days I'm simply putting out new ones too often. Give things a chance to slow down with the edits and we'll have a nice fancy name.

I don't think any of you read about the invincible ghost glitch I briefly talked about.
but it needs to be fixed or the firebat is just a rigged hero.

The steps were to
1.level all 4 powerups
2.create ghost
3.create dropship
4.empty dropship
5.load ghost into dropship
6.create spellcast for new dropship
7.unload the invincible ghost

This hasn't been fixed in the most recent version
Uhh, yeah the temple gets beat down too easy with 2 nukes.

Also re-creating lifted off buildings would be nice, I've lifted off on accident before. It's really sad but really annoying too.

Uploaded a new one:
- The Temples have 70000 HP and 30 armor.
- Air Units cannot capture Warp Gates.
- Reduced upgrade damage for Mutalisks from +4 to +3. (Archer)
- Fixed invincible Ghost bug. (Assault)
- Maelstrom cost changed to 65 energy. (for real this time... I had 60 in there >_>)
- Decreased HP from 4800 to 4200. (Spec. Ops)
- Decreased effects duration (AKA. self-paralysis) of Charge of Courage. (Warrior)
(Er, whoops, forgot to change Mine HP >_<)



Now to talk balance...

My ideas for Spec Ops:
- Change damage to let's say... 20 + 2.
- Remove the current L2 completely.
- L2 becomes the current L3, with increased cost for Irradiate and EMP.
- Spec Ops will need a damage spell to compensate for that +2, (and motive to level spells) so L3 becomes a Sniper Shot attack. Basically, it's a one-shot deal much like Assassin's L4... but with a Ghost. I'm going to say something like 400 + 10x damage would be fine for this.

I have to admit that something does have to be done about Assassin's L1. An effects delay on the L1 but increased HP might be a tentative solution.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Nov 30 2008, 9:11 pm by Mini Moose 2707.