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So if we really boil the argument down to avoiding unnecessary pain, I simply go back to my first point. They are getting a far better deal with us then they are getting in the wild, in terms of pain minimization.
No they aren't. Their pain is most certainly increased, but they don't have to work as hard. They don't have to work to find food.
Why is their pain increased?
In the wild, farm animals do not have to deal with the same amount of pain associated with overpopulation and lack of movement. Every day in chicken farms, there are numerous chickens who just die due to the poor living conditions. There are certainly other causes for this behavior, but it is mostly the living conditions. They can't get around and move for much of their life, making them uncomfortable. As humans, we know that being uncomfortable for a very long time is or can lead to pain. Staying in bed when you are sick is painful, often times due to bedsores, but also due to muscle deterioration and cramps. Animals go through all sorts of treatments, such as some of those things put in the video, like horn removal, and branding. This is essentially torture, something that they would never receive in the wild. The wost they would get there is a disease which slowly and painfully causes them to die (which they also get in farms) or being ripped to shreds right before they die by some predator. There are also almost certainly fights that break out between wild animals which do not result in death, but these are self inflicted. By removing animals from their rightful place in the wild, we remove most of their free will, which PETA obviously values a lot for every living creature except plants, bacteria and fungi, among other organisms without a brain. Of course they will never go hungry, which is possibly a problem in the wild, but usually animals do a really good job of finding their own food. The cats left behind in chernobyl are doing exceptionally well, even after being abandoned by their owners.
Yes I will have to agree with you that they are living uncomfortably their entire lives. As opposed to in the wild where they live in relative comfort (assuming they aren't starving) up until their death. Though I will add most animals spend their lives in a constant state of fear, something which would probably be absent or lessened while under human ownership.
I guess I am trying to talk more to the vegans/vegetarians at this point though. If we eat animals from free-range farms isn't that better treatment than what they would get in the wild? I mean, I guess I can only talk about my own farm, but we had chickens that just roamed whoever, and hundreds of head of cattle spread over 200 acres. We provided food and protection, in return we got their eggs, milk, and eventually meat. Killing cattle is a very quick process involving a special type of gun that liquifies the brain through a shockwave, after which their blood is drained by severing the arteries around the neck. This is a lot quicker and painless than almost all the deaths in the wild. Plus they are not in a constant state of fear nor constantly foraging for food/starving.
I guess what I have taken from this convo though is that I won't be buying cage eggs anymore. I used to coz they were cheap, but now I will pay the extra $$. Is there a way of telling whether meat comes from animal-welfare-conscious farms?
It's hard for me to take this video seriously when the narrator is so blatantly biased. Not to mention that the last minute of the video was purely propaganda.
For every animal those vegans don't eat, I will eat three.
Since they don't eat every single animal on the earth, you have to eat 3*all the animals on earth
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Quote from name:Dem0nS1ayer
So I guess it would be humane to take all the starving children in war-ridden areas of Africa and throw them in small cages and beat them daily? They'll be protected from fighting, and they'll get free food. It's all a good deal, right?
Humans can reason and contribute to society. Cows and pigs and chickens can't.
Is there a way of telling whether meat comes from animal-welfare-conscious farms?
Some egg cartons say "cage free" on them.
For every animal those vegans don't eat, I will eat three.
Since they don't eat every single animal on the earth, you have to eat 3*all the animals on earth
CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.
Win by luck, lose by skill.
Quote from name:Dem0nS1ayer
One could argue that they get a better deal this way. Protection from predators, free food, comfortable living (this one varies) in exchange for their freedom and a quick, painless (also may vary in some dodgy-ass places) death at a young-ish age. Versus constantly searching for food, comfortable living is only what nature provides, and constant threat of predators and more than likely a painful death at the hands of said predators. Though they do have their freedom! Something which, I suspect, they do not even appreciate.
So yes, I would tentatively argue that we give them a better deal.
So I guess it would be humane to take all the starving children in war-ridden areas of Africa and throw them in small cages and beat them daily? They'll be protected from fighting, and they'll get free food. It's all a good deal, right?
Chickens aren't people.
Leave it up to humans to establish the concept of "person" so they can justify their god complex.
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Find Me On Discord (Brood War UMS Community & Staredit Network)
It would be more accurate to say we don't use people for food but we do use chickens for food. So there isn't really a parity.
Is there a way of telling whether meat comes from animal-welfare-conscious farms?
Some egg cartons say "cage free" on them.
Well I can tell you didn't read my post properly...
If you try to catch a wild bird around your house I'm sure it would protest. I'm sure it would protest by first running away, and if you scare it it might start squaking or release a warning call to other nearby birds, and if you actually grab it I'm sure it would struggle, claw, and bite you.
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What we do with chickens is just part of the food chain. It's the same as a bear eating a salmon. If you want to argue that we don't have the right to eat these animals you're wrong. We are superior to the chickens, and we prove that by eating them. Do you think a grizzly bear is going to not hurt you because it's worried about you feeling pain? No. Why should I have to worry about the feelings of a chicken? The captivity thing isn't any different than hunting in the wild. We're just the only ones smart enough to trap them in a cage so we don't have to work as hard to get the food.
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We are superior to the chickens, and we prove that by eating them.
Hitler was superior to lots of people, and proved it by killing them.
The Japanese during WWII treated US soldiers with extreme brutality because they were superior, and they had proven it with scientific hair and odor tests (to see who evolved the furthest from monkeys) -the Japanese had less hair and less body odor than their Western enemies.
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So eating chickens is genocide?
Or maybe Hitler was eating the Jews...
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We are superior to the chickens, and we prove that by eating them.
Let's reverse this situation. Suppose a group of aliens came to our planet. They're so intelligent we seem like blithering idiots, on the level of cows. It also turns out they can cook us into delicious delicacies. So they stick us in cages where we have no room to move, in unsanitary conditions, beat us, prod us, and then kill us for McHuman burgers.
You're telling me they have a full right to do this? We're not superior, if anything, we're inferior, because have so much potential and we waste it. Yeah, fun to justify things when you're on top isn't it? We're superior? The majority of the human race believes that the entire Universe was made for them. For the longest time we believed the Universe resolved around us. Let's hope we're one of the worst offspring of the galaxy.
Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on May 12 2011, 9:14 pm by CecilSunkure. Reason: Whoa there, keep the word choice civil.
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If the time it took us to learn those thing was really that long, don't you think aliens would have come here and eaten us already?
Besides, it's pretty unlikely that aliens would have the proper digestive systems to eat us. They would be from another planet with different food sources.
So, until you come up with a way for people to eat and grow through photosynthesis, I will continue eating other living things.
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SDE, BWAPI owner, hacker.
Do you honestly believe we can go live in a fantasy land where humans and the animals live side by side happily ever after?
It's a mere child's argument IMHO.
If the time it took us to learn those thing was really that long, don't you think aliens would have come here and eaten us already?
Besides, it's pretty unlikely that aliens would have the proper digestive systems to eat us. They would be from another planet with different food sources.
So, until you come up with a way for people to eat and grow through photosynthesis, I will continue eating other living things.
How do you know anything about aliens, or the probability that they would have already shown up? This doesn't refute any points I've shown or Sacruier has shown, you simply just stated "I'm going to continue on with my point of view despite what you all just said". Perhaps you could be a bit open-minded?
Do you honestly believe we can go live in a fantasy land where humans and the animals live side by side happily ever after?
It's a mere child's argument IMHO.
If you hold this view so rigidly, could you explain why?
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If the time it took us to learn those thing was really that long, don't you think aliens would have come here and eaten us already?
Besides, it's pretty unlikely that aliens would have the proper digestive systems to eat us. They would be from another planet with different food sources.
So, until you come up with a way for people to eat and grow through photosynthesis, I will continue eating other living things.
It is a hypothetical situation, the premises are to be taken as true for the sake of argument.
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Honestly I would not enjoy being slaughtered to be eaten by aliens. Do you think that people would enjoy being eaten by whatever used to eat humans?
We learned to adapt and create shelter and weapons to defend ourselfs against predators. If chickens were to do the same, we would stop eating them. If I could have a full conversation with a cow I probably wouldn't want to eat it anymore.
The truth is, people today are so separated from reality that when they see that the bacon they're eating is a pig they get upset. Their fondest childhood memories are of a book called Charlotte's Web where animals act like humans and are still suspect to being slaughtered. I seriously doubt pigs and spiders ever have conversations about getting eaten. People are just upset, because they believe what they see when animals are being portrayed as having human characteristics, which they do not.
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If you try to catch a wild bird around your house I'm sure it would protest. I'm sure it would protest by first running away, and if you scare it it might start squaking or release a warning call to other nearby birds, and if you actually grab it I'm sure it would struggle, claw, and bite you.
non-violent protests, submitting petitions for equal rights among mistreated animals, forming unions
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If you try to catch a wild bird around your house I'm sure it would protest. I'm sure it would protest by first running away, and if you scare it it might start squaking or release a warning call to other nearby birds, and if you actually grab it I'm sure it would struggle, claw, and bite you.
non-violent protests, submitting petitions for equal rights among mistreated animals, forming unions
Valid point, but just because they protest in a different way doesn't necessarily mean they are inferior. If a person is being manhandled I think they'd physically protest without writing a petition. So, how is animalistic protesting inferior to human protesting in order for you to clarify the disparity between the two?
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Find Me On Discord (Brood War UMS Community & Staredit Network)
It is a simple case of the strong preying on the weak. All of nature revolves around this basic premise. Humans have to fight their own nature in order to do otherwise.
Just wondering, why do people flip shit when they see abused dogs or cats (or any other pets), but when they see things like this, it doesn't have any effect on them?
rockz
Oh_Man
