Yet Hell is quoted so much to those of disbelief in an attempt to get them to convert. In fact, I don't think I've met a single Christian who HASN'T impressed upon me what will happen to my soul if I don't convert before my death.

You may say it isn't a religion of fear, but it certainly uses fear to convert people, and I know first-hand many people, particularly Christians who are Christians no-more, who would recount how the stories of Hell that would keep them up at night.

And then there is limbo, the reason babies are so quickly rushed off to be baptized. The place where all the souls of unbaptized children go...

Actually baptism has absolutely nothing to do with going to hell. Baptism is purely symbolic of an inward change, an inward change that I doubt any babies have gone through. I'm pretty sure the souls of children go to Heaven regardless. In reality, Christianity isn't really supposed to be based on fear, it's based on mercy.

I can see why someone who doesn't believe in God would think that it is based on fear though. Christianity is often viewed as:

God tells you to what to do. What do you do?
1) Do what God says to do. -> Go to Heaven.
2) Don't do what God says. -> Go to Hell.

While in reality It's a lot closer to this:

You are going to Hell because well, you're only human.
God is willing to let it slide. What do you do?
1) Take up the offer. -> Go to Heaven.
2) Do things my own way. -> Go to Hell.

I guess you haven't met many Christians, or anyone on SEN for that matter.

Wouldn't that sortof prove my earlier argument that Christianity isn't really as prevalent as is commonly believed?
Either that or Oh_Man just lives under a rock. jk <3

It's still just the same message worded differently.

How about this analogy.
You are starving to death.
I offer you a sandwich.
You can either accept or decline the sandwich.
Accept the sandwich -> Live
Decline the sandiwch -> Die
Are you going to make me out to be the bad guy if I don't shove the sandwich down your throat?

I suppose we differ on our definition of Christianity and definitions of hell.

From my experience with Christianity (being raised in it) the definition of Hell is: "Outside of God's presence.". For whatever reason it's not a nice place out there, and Christianity states that all you have to do to be saved is to accept the offering that Jesus gave.

So say "Christianity" is just a set of instructions for not falling into a pit of spikes, and you can either follow them or fall into spikes. Me saying to you that if you do not adhere to Christianity will render you impaled is definitely a scary thing, and that fear is a powerful motivator. However what people here have been implying is that just because Christianity boads doom, is that it is a bad thing to do. Christianity or motivation via fear aren't inherently "bad". You can consider both Christianity and motivation via fear as tools. A tool is never truly good or bad; only it's intent in use is good or evil. Some people can claim to be a Christian with the intent of preventing you from falling into a pit of spikes, and another may claim to be a Christian in order to get your money.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 18 2011, 1:40 am by CecilSunkure.

For one, the pit of spikes argument can't work because nobody can prove that hell exists as a physical place. It's fairly simple to prove that the pit of spikes existed. You can find the body after that person died, impaled on a pit of spikes. If you do not believe the pit of spikes exists, and nobody has ever died from a pit of spikes in the well documented past, then there is very little worry of dying to the pit of spikes no matter what you do.

I think that motivation via fear has notoriety, which is why it has spread and is thought to be commonplace in Christianity, when I don't really believe it is. I've always been taught to lead and convert by example. With the growing numbers of lackadaisical Christians who only go to Church once or twice a year, or just to get married in, it's easy for them to get the wrong idea from whatever church they go to. I don't think they are entirely certain in what they believe, they're just sort of half-assing it to cover their own butts just in case. For the same reason, these people (which I'm sure make up the majority of the "Christian" statistic in the US) are the same reason it's "okay" to target Christianity. They really don't care. They only care if you insult them.

There's more to it than that. If you accept Jesus etc... then what you will do is strive to be like Jesus (ie be nice to people). It is there that you will find heaven. Accepting Jesus on your deathbed is virtually impossible to do, and in my opinion pointless, since you're just going to die soon.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 18 2011, 1:45 am by rockz.

Oh that's true. My example was a little bit under-formed. I'll change it to: So say "Christianity" is just a set of instructions for not falling into a supposed pit of spikes, and you can either follow them or not follow them. However nobody that ventures towards the area where the spikes supposedly are ever returns.

The question of the spikes existing or not was just sort of ignored by me at first since it's rather irrelevant to my point, which was about fear, motivation, and intention.

Something I've always been curious about.
Could it be that heaven and hell are simply metaphorical?
Is heaven a real place or just the concept of having a fullfilled life.
Is hell a real place or is it just the product of living a life without purpose.

Does having a fullfilled life come for sharing love with others?

I don't know, but I do know those all sound very disappointing.

Well I guess here it depends on which of the many sects of Christianity you believe in. I'm not sure how many view baptism as a prereq for Heaven and how many don't. I can say with certainty though that for Catholicism, Limbo was where all the unbaptized babies went.

Semantics. They both mean the same thing. Your sandwhich argument falls for the same problem.

God made you in the first place, he made Hell, he made Heaven. There is no choice but God's way or the highway. From the moment of your birth you are already consigned to the depths of Hell unless you do X, X, and X. You are BORN sick, and COMMANDED to be well, under punishment of eternal torture, no less.

Don't use sophistry to cover up this wickedness. Look at it for what it is. If you believe in this type of God, than that is what you have to accept. That from the moment of your birth you are doomed to eternal torture unless you do what God says.

Same argument, God created the spikes, God created you. Then he tells you what to do in order to not fall into the spikes. He also tells you you are going to fall into the spikes NO MATTER WHAT, unless you do exactly X, X, and X.

Here, I'll use some analogies to impress upon you how terrible this is. Say I'm a researcher with a rat in a box. If the rat doesn't press the 'worship' button, at least once a day - then I begin torturing the rat slowly and painfully while keeping it alive for as long as possible until it at last dies. But wait, this isn't a perfect parity. Because, for your beliefs, there is no death, the torture is eternal....

I could up the ante: Let's say I'm a Prison Warden with a bunch of inmates. They have to do all of the God-worshippy things or else I start beating the shit out of them on a daily basis. Saaame thing.

Now, is anyone here morally bankrupt enough to say that this is a just and good system? That this set-up is the handwork of an omnibenevolent being? Come on! This is wickedness, and you are all trying to hide that fact through sophistry. I beg of you, stop reasoning like this: 1. God is omnibenevolent. 2. If it appears that God is not omnibenevolent, go to 1. Instead judge its omnibenevolence based on its actions, don't just assume it prima facie. If you do, you're always going to be justifying every immoral action it makes.

I smell a No true Scotsman fallacy. I've met many Christians, and Jack from SEN has said it.

One should not decide what is true or false based on how it makes one feel. One should look only at the facts. So whether or not it is disappointing is completely irrelevant.

Post has been edited 6 time(s), last time on May 18 2011, 6:35 am by Oh_Man.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_272/8132-How-to-Shoot-Real-Demons

He wasn't converted, from the sounds of things, so he was right to fear. Let me state it a different way. Christianity is not a religion of fear IF YOU'RE A CHRISTIAN. If you're a Christian, you have nothing to fear. If you aren't a Christian, then yes, you are going to hell. Only the free offer of salvation through Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross to pay for all Christian's sins can save you.

The idea of a pit is a good one. You're going to fall into a hidden pit that you can't or won't see, and Jesus says "Come this way, or you'll fall into the pit." currnetly your answer is NO U and you keep walking doggedly toward the pit.

Oh_man, your scenarios aren't very accurate. A better exanple is a police officer telling you not to break that window. Then you break it, and he says he'll chuck you in jail. Then he says, "Hey, I'm a merciful guy, I'll let you off and take you to a mansion where you can live for free, but from now on you gotta acknowledge me as the guy who gave you this. And if you intentionally keep breaking those windows, you clearly aren't thankful at all, so into jail you'll go.

Well it depends what type of Christian you are. I know of many Christian sects where simply being a part of their sect isn't enough, you also have to do other things like get baptized, confirmed, go to Church, confess regularly, etc. I know other sects who believe in universal reconciliation, where everyone is going to heaven no matter what their beliefs or their sins.

I am curious, Jack, which sect do you partake in? I will be able to more accurately tailor my arguments to your unique set of creeds and beliefs. Saying you're 'a Christian' could mean almost anything, as there are many different sects with varying and oft-contradictory beliefs.


Yes, except you are missing one crucial detail. I had no choice BUT to break the window, I broke the window before I was born. We all, in fact, broke the window. We are all already doomed to eternal torture from Day 1 of our existence. This isn't a choice. It's being born into slavery, into debt, with the only way out by following X, X, and X.

I haven't impressed upon you what will happen to your soul when you die.

Yes.

You didn't address any of the points I brought up, and didn't really bring any new points to light other than that you seem to have a disposition towards authority; your analogies were slanderous and made bold and poor assumptions. Both of your analogies assume that obeying authority yields no benefits other than not experiencing pain. Also, a researcher or prison warden are neither omnipotent or omnipresent and as such are luck-laster and un-qualified authority figures. You also make the proclamation that whatever the authority figure is doing is both immoral and wicked.

In order to claim that something is immoral or wrong you have to prescribe to a set of standards. By adhering to a set of standards you submit yourself to the boundaries rules proposed by the standard. In order for rules or standards to exist, and authority has to set them. By saying that whatever god is doing is immoral you are saying that the standards you prescribe to have authority over god. So either you believe in an authority that is higher than god (i.e. another god), or you believe your own authority is higher than god. Seeing as how you're just some guy and if god exists it's all-powerful and all-knowing, I think I'd rather adhere to its rules and standards than yours.

I'll just requote this for you, as it seems it hasn't yet sunken in even after about a full year:

And remember that you ignored some points I made earlier about intentions, tools, and morality.

I think you are doomed to eternal torture the moment you know the difference between right and wrong. Why did you think it was called the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil"? The same thing happens to Adam and Eve in the garden. The moment you are wrong is the moment you realize that you are.

Similarly, a person isn't really lieing unless they knowingly decieve someone.
Getting an answer wrong on my chemistry test doesn't make me a liar, unless of course I intentionally wrote the wrong answer down because the person behind me was trying to copy my paper.

Well i agree that heaven and hell is all metaphoric.

@Cecil
Maybe hes trying to stall for time

I find Christianity stupid becuase of the fear aspect; scientifically feasible statement is that when we die we either

a) go to heaven
b) go to hell
c) Rebirth (which scientifically is feasible)
d) We just rot in the earth (or wherever we die) again scientifically feasible

Some kind of pseudo science may be present here and i deny that when we die we go to heaven or hell.

On the topic of Christianity not being a religion of fear, I've often heard the term "God-fearing" in relation to Christians, as said by Christians themselves. Like Oh_Man, I know a lot of Christians who are afraid of the possibility of hell and that's why they confess their "sins." To me the whole concept of having to confess sins seems to be based on the fear of what happens if you don't, right? Maybe I just have a basic understanding of it.

Then again realistically, I believe most people in our generation who confess their sins do so because they are told to, rather than because they want to save their souls. That's just my opinion, though. I think I'm overly cynical and jaded because of where I am. Le sigh.