Is that a vote? Oh lulz, not playing

I'll say it again to the people voting EzDay - putting him in the mayor's office because of his "special role" is not beneficial. If he isn't lying about having a special role, which we cannot know anyway, it is much better to increase the number of townies with special powers than place someone with a valuable role right in front of the mafia. The first thing the mafia is going to do is try to find bodyguards and kill the mayor. The special roles do not possess powers that make them better mayors, so there isn't any argument to that respect*.

It would be far wiser to elect a plain townie, like me, to be mayor than someone who claims to have a special role.

*This is of course not valid if EzDay is the detective, but I have strong reasons to doubt that.

Combined powers are more powerful than single powers. We also can't even be sure that you aren't mafia. EzDay on the otherhand, I have pretty good evidence that he isn't.

I change my vote to EZDay.

(HA! TAKE THAT MINIMOOSE, IMMA CONFUSE TEH HECK OUTTA UZ!!!!)

Curiousity, what happens if a Mafia is elected as mayor?

Are you just kinda... doomed?

If I was in here, I would vote for DTBK.

Read the rules, that's potentially game alterring. Nub.

Suure-- wait, how?

I just said my opinion. I like DTBK.

He responded to a comment on his avatar.

That's it. That's all. That's the only reason I said it.

You cannot have any more assurance that he is not mafia versus I am not mafia. Personally, I believe he isn't mafia, but that is for everyone to decide.

What you fail to understand is that there is no "combined powers" advantage. Unless he is the detective (when I am damn sure he is not), being mayor does not increase the power of his special role. It simply pens up more powers in a single person for the mafia to more conveniently knock off. If you could show me how having a non-detective townie role AND being mayor help each other, I might back down. And if EzDay is just another townie after all, I think I would make a better mayor.

Yes, electing me mayor would mean you have to trust me. That much I ask on faith. I don't have Tux's foolproof failsafe, but I think that if I were a mafia mayor, it would become evident pretty quickly. If you have any test of my alignment, I will do my best to faithfully execute it.

I admit, DTBK has the epically right idea there. EzDay is just going to get targeted, and if thats the case, we're screwed. Bribery FTL, logic FTL. Go DTBK.

And how do you know we didn't account swap? ;P
Nerdy has reason to trust me, else we wouldn't have our group. He has no reason to trust you. Putting you in office would pose a greater risk of a mafia-mayor. And while many players are in the same situation, having no more evidence of my innocence than they have of DTBK's, well, it comes down to a trust-chain.

Placing a special role as mayor guarantees that, barring lynching, that special role will live for as long, or easily longer, than the bodyguards do. You seem to do a very good job of ignoring that the special role can be killed if he's not mayor, just as quickly as one body guard would - let alone two body guards, one or more with doctor protection, and one last final night for the hit on the mayor himself to come in.

We both can be expected to be doing clue analysis; to know better than to give out excessive, sensitive information without something to negate the risk of damage; and hopefully to listen to reason. As far as qualifications go, it's down to opinion.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 21 2008, 4:16 am by EzDay281.

You got to it before I could

I vote EzDay for mayor.

I think Anonymoose would get mad about that If you did, you didn't say so.

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Nerdy has reason to trust me, else we wouldn't have our group. He has no reason to trust you. Putting you in office would pose a greater risk of a mafia-mayor. And while many players are in the same situation, having no more evidence of my innocence than they have of DTBK's, well, it comes down to a trust-chain.

Exactly. Nerdy's trust means nothing to me, nor do I think it means anything to anyone else. Personally, I trust you not to be mafia, and to be who you say you are, and I wish you could trust me. There is nothing in your little "group" that can't go an between anyone else.

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Placing a special role as mayor guarantees that, barring lynching, that special role will live for as long, or easily longer, than the bodyguards do.

So? The special role will only be self-destructively trying to desperately prop up his own mayorship.

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You seem to do a very good job of ignoring that the special role can be killed if he's not mayor, just as quickly as one body guard would - let alone two body guards, one or more with doctor protection, and one last final night for the hit on the mayor himself to come in.

To what end though? If the mayor's special role is keeping people alive, he is doing nobody any good trying to save his bodyguards and not helping the rest of the town. More arguments sent by PM.

Putting EzDay in office is not the best move for the town.

Yes, you all have to trust that I am not mafia. From my standpoint, I don't think there is any more reason to trust EzDay than me.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jan 21 2008, 5:25 am by DT_Battlekruser.

Look at it like this, if EzDay isn't elected he'll be killed fairly shortly. 2-3 nights tops. As mayor he can stay alive to use his power longer. What benefit will we gain from having you as mayor?

Well, you gain my mayoral skills, if you believe me to have them. My aim in being elected is to set up a mayoral circle apart from your little group, so the mafia needs to tackle both me (if I become mayor) AND your group. As mayor, I would call for all the doctors to protect EzDay, so the mafia would at least have to waste a whole lot of killing time to get rid of him.

EzDay "using his power longer" is not beneficial to the town, because it does not extend beyond the mayoral circle (you should know what I mean).

If EzDay is elected, the mafia gain two advantages:
-I can be knocked off immediately on night 1 (EzDay at least would warrant doctor protection; I don't see the likes of you raising a finger to stop me from dying)
-The mayor is known to have a special role, so the mafia can kill the mayor and a useful role in one swoop by going after the mayor

EzDay being mayor does indeed make him harder to kill, but it does not make him harder to kill than any other mayor, and he is a more valuable kill.

As mayor, I can be more expendable, forcing the mafia to decide to go after either the center of information (me), or to actually try to hunt out all the special roles. I don't necessarily think that if I were elected mayor doctor protections should be wasted on bodyguards if more important roles can be identified and protected. When I am mayor, the mafia faces a greater number of different people who have powerful roles. Ideally, EzDay would not have revealed that he has a special role, but that cannot be undone.

Ultimately, if the doctors are protecting the really important roles, then the mafia can waste a lot of work taking me out, but all they will have really accomplished is to kill my influence; all the other roles would still be around to plague them.

I honestly don't believe you would be a great mayor. I'm not pushing for EzDay to be mayor simply because I think his role will be more beneficial than yours. I think he will be a better mayor regardless of his other role. If you don't become mayor you are still capable of setting up a group of powerful individuals. I'm sure the people voting for you would be happy to stick with you. Calling to have all the doctors on EzDay is simply unnecessary when we can keep him alive without using up doctor slots by electing him to be mayor.

Being able to use any special power longer is doubtless an advantage to the town. Moose doesn't give us special roles to benefit individuals, they are there to benefit the town as a whole.

If EzDay doesn't become mayor he will die. He is more useful than you. And you claim that the mafia gain the advantage of being able to kill you. You aren't that special, sorry. You died last game, and who was there to own the mafia? Me. You're right that I'm not raising a finger to stop you from dying, I'm an arrogant bastard, we don't need you.

As far as it not making him harder to kill, this is simply not true. I'm thinking we both know his role, and we both know how he can use it to extend his life as mayor. Don't pretend he will be as easy to kill as a normal mayor. He won't.

Addition: The mafia don't have to go to a lot of special effort to take you out. If they randomly kill people off they'll hit a lot of special roles as well as being likely to hit your bodyguards. The argument that they have to waste time taking you out is pitiful.

To that I can only disagree. It is a matter of opinion, but I think I would make a better mayor.

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If you don't become mayor you are still capable of setting up a group of powerful individuals.

No, I will be dead.

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If EzDay doesn't become mayor he will die.

Only (a) under intense mafia kill diversion and (b) because you all decided to start advertising his role.

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You died last game, and who was there to own the mafia?

Who killed me? Oh wait, it was you idiotic Boondock Saints.

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You're right that I'm not raising a finger to stop you from dying, I'm an arrogant bastard, we don't need you.

With your love of blood I would say you were mafia if I didn't know better. Without doctor protection, I would die to one mafia hit, rather than EzDay dying, if the mafia decides to waste it on him, to four mafia hits. Dead townies are not a good thing, or didn't you know? Me dying is not a good thing.

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I'm thinking we both know his role, and we both know how he can use it to extend his life as mayor. Don't pretend he will be as easy to kill as a normal mayor. He won't.

There you are just being a straight-out retard. It will take the mafia as many turns to kill the mayor whether EzDay exercises his powers from within the protection of the mayor's office or without.

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The mafia don't have to go to a lot of special effort to take you out. If they randomly kill people off they'll hit a lot of special roles as well as being likely to hit your bodyguards. The argument that they have to waste time taking you out is pitiful.

If I'm not mayor, no they don't. If I am mayor, then I think anyone will agree the mafia has to make special effort to kill the mayor. If the special roles are doctor-protected, then they are not going to be killed by 'random hits'. Furthermore, the mafia are NOT likely to randomly hit a bodyguard. There are 27 non-mafia and 2 bodyguards. You do the math.

What you fail to realize is that EzDay, while more important in terms of role than me, is not indispensable to the town either. We do not lose by default if he dies, and the mafia will have to use more total hits to kill both of us if I am mayor than if he is mayor. This is a team game, after all.

You are incorrect, the mafia won't kill people specifically seeking out your bodyguards. They'll kill the most prominent people regardless. Meaning they won't waste ANY time seeking you out specifically. You are an idiot if you don't see how EzDay being mayor can prolong the reign of the mayor.

Oh, and you were hit by inferno before I was calling the shots, and calling us idiotic doesn't change the fact that we won that game. The only game that has been won by townies on SEN.

a. Would he necessarily know? xP
b. I don't think I see any rules against account-swapping.

I was making that point in response to your claim that Nerdy can't know my role. "You cannot have any more assurance that he is not mafia..." or something along those lines.

Boondock Saint? Offensive role, that will benefit and can't "self-destructively [try]..." Meatshield/Regenerator? Doesn't matter. Doctor? Possibility of extra hits needed for his downing - lack of possibility of fewer required hits. Detective? Absolutely wonderful. Pardoner? Meh. Etc.
It varies from role to role.

Should the Detective find the mayor to be mafia, with a large group of people having backed him through elaborate planning... uh... ya. I think we all know what that means. Should the detective find the mayor not to be mafia and not raise alarm? It's a group that has managed to determine, to some extent, the likelihood of its own legitimacy; and with a leader whom recognizes what weakness there is, and accounts for the slight possibility of corruption. Such a group may not be perfect, but it's a good thing.

Well, that's stupid. Announce a plan out-loud that basically states, 'this person will try to make the only use of as many of a certain role as he can limited only to giving us the opportunity to waste our time should we for some reason feel rather rambunctious.'
Although your mention of setting up a second group is a fair suggestion, I question how safe it could be. And how would you set it up, anyways?

The mayoral circle is part of the town. Its success would be the town's success. The town's success would be its success.
It's not like it's going to forsake the rest of the town and essentially become a second, mildly benevolent mafia group. At the very least, I know that I know better than that, and in the case that it's really necessary, well, there's always me reminding the others of that fact.

Honestly, what's the value of the mayor? That he's protected and takes longer to kill, and can use his greater influence in conjuction with his allies to help guide the lynchings towards targets. With a mayor that does not have an established safe-group, much of this is negligated or heavily watered-down. By the time the mafia might be able to kill me, I'll have served much of my purpose.

It's one less special-role that needs to be "hunted down."

Point b is too late to change. I thought I mentioned this quite some time ago.

You make a lot of valid points. Let me respond to them in kind.

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Boondock Saint? Offensive role, that will benefit and can't "self-destructively [try]..." Meatshield/Regenerator? Doesn't matter. Doctor? Possibility of extra hits needed for his downing - lack of possibility of fewer required hits. Detective? Absolutely wonderful. Pardoner? Meh. Etc.
It varies from role to role.

I agree completely here, but you have not hinted at having an offensive role. If you were to put forth a candidate claiming to be boondock saint/detective/etc. I would more readily support them.

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Should the Detective find the mayor to be mafia

Detective can't investigate mayor, I'm pretty sure Moose said.

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Announce a plan out-loud that basically states, 'this person will try to make the only use of as many of a certain role as he can limited only to giving us the opportunity to waste our time should we for some reason feel rather rambunctious.'

If you would rather not do that, it makes no difference, but I think it would take a stupid mafia not to lay at least one hit on you.

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Although your mention of setting up a second group is a fair suggestion, I question how safe it could be. And how would you set it up, anyways?

Mayor and his bodyguards comprise an airtight group of 3, plus if we can establish mutual trust, we can help each other. The bodyguards are guaranteed not to be mafia, so that can help the diplomacy.

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It's not like it's going to forsake the rest of the town and essentially become a second, mildly benevolent mafia group.

If the mayor uses all his powers to stop himself and the bodyguards from dying, then he is only serving himself.

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Honestly, what's the value of the mayor? That he's protected and takes longer to kill, and can use his greater influence in conjuction with his allies to help guide the lynchings towards targets. With a mayor that does not have an established safe-group, much of this is negligated or heavily watered-down. By the time the mafia might be able to kill me, I'll have served much of my purpose.

I agree with you here too. Mayor is not the most important position in this game, but mafia still tries to get rid of mayor, so I am saying that putting less roles into the mayor's office gives the mafia more to contend with. I know you don't consider me part of your "safe-group" but I would like to try to cooperate with you. As mayor, I would try to consider myself part of said "safe-group" and the bodyguards could also serve to function as part of it. If you can trust me as mayor, I live, you have a better chance of living than I, and we make our circle bigger. It all seems to come down to the fact that you don't trust me, and I regret that. What about me don't you trust that lets you trust someone like Nerdy?

I want to work with you; please help me. If I am not elected, nobody is going to bother to protect me, and I will die. Yes, part of this is me pleading for my life.