None.
Why not just recreate Temple Siege the exact way it is, and from there make alterations and changes or improvements?
OVERWATCH STATUS GO
My best guess would be because the SC2 editor has so much to offer that the limitations of the SC1 editor couldn't do, so TS1 may seem lacking in comparison to all the existing SC2 AoS maps. Perhaps also the guys want to just make something new. 
Currently Working On:
My Overwatch addiction.
Currently Working On: My Overwatch addiction.
@Above
It's not just that..
The audience has also changed quite dramatically. The people who play SC2 are more used to WC3 style of gaming...
They currently seem to have more patience than BW pubbies, and also they are more used to have overcomplicated things in a map.
They also prefer QWER, items, and many other nuances that I'm still trying to grasp.
Temple Siege by itself also have to have its own ... "specialty". It needs to be different from the rest of the AoS's. It is already exceptionally hard to get a game popular with the shitty custom map system... If I'm going to spend time in creating something, I will make sure it stays at least at the 2nd page.
Another thing is that a lot of things would feel awkward if they were directly translated into SC2. Take, for instance, Mutant's Fury Swipe. It'd be weird to have unburrowing zerglings. Other examples would be Medic's Disable, Warrior's Charge of Courage, and etc...
Finally, there are a lot of things in TS1 that needed more work. Medic n Dark Mage are good examples, as their abilities were really limited by SC1's triggering. We can easily evolve these heroes @SC2. The Spawn system is also poorly done in TS1. We haven't discussed the spawn system yet, but I do have a few ideas that I can bring out.
Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Feb 17 2011, 9:49 pm by UnholyUrine.
It's not just that..
The audience has also changed quite dramatically. The people who play SC2 are more used to WC3 style of gaming...
They currently seem to have more patience than BW pubbies, and also they are more used to have overcomplicated things in a map.
They also prefer QWER, items, and many other nuances that I'm still trying to grasp.
Temple Siege by itself also have to have its own ... "specialty". It needs to be different from the rest of the AoS's. It is already exceptionally hard to get a game popular with the shitty custom map system... If I'm going to spend time in creating something, I will make sure it stays at least at the 2nd page.
Another thing is that a lot of things would feel awkward if they were directly translated into SC2. Take, for instance, Mutant's Fury Swipe. It'd be weird to have unburrowing zerglings. Other examples would be Medic's Disable, Warrior's Charge of Courage, and etc...
Finally, there are a lot of things in TS1 that needed more work. Medic n Dark Mage are good examples, as their abilities were really limited by SC1's triggering. We can easily evolve these heroes @SC2. The Spawn system is also poorly done in TS1. We haven't discussed the spawn system yet, but I do have a few ideas that I can bring out.
Spawn System Ideas and Others
Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Feb 17 2011, 9:49 pm by UnholyUrine.
None.
Quote from 
UnholyUrine
UnholyUrineFor instance, I feel there is a need to incorporate a gameplay mechanic that involves map control, as map control creates a perfect dilemma - More map control = better chances of winning, but getting map control is costly and may risk you the game.
...
Basically, I want the spawns and buildings to play a bigger role. To evolve.. from TS1. I want it to be a viable 2ndary strategy, and that the best players need to satisfy both Hero control and Base control.
Reason behind this is that this is a strategy lacking in the most common AoS's today.
...
Basically, I want the spawns and buildings to play a bigger role. To evolve.. from TS1. I want it to be a viable 2ndary strategy, and that the best players need to satisfy both Hero control and Base control.
Reason behind this is that this is a strategy lacking in the most common AoS's today.
Temple Siege 1, in my analysis, actually got worse in this regard as it evolved. There used to be three situations where I would find spawns useful:
1. The spawn rush. Basically, you save up early civs, then bump the spawn way up all at once, so that it makes it very difficult for the enemy to feed; bump it up some more, and their base dies. Contrary to popular belief, this was not an automatic win strategy (it could be countered by a hybrid hero-spawn strategy), nor did it "ruin" the game by determining the outcome solely by its success or failure (quickly transitioning from spawn rush to assimilator-backed spawn-hero hybrid, using the territory advantage from the initial rush, could allow you to survive the strategy being countered, essentially stabilizing the game into a combined battle featuring heroes and spawners). But-- and this is a big but-- it was widely hated by people who faced it, because they probably joined the game in the expectation of playing a certain sort of game, and the spawn strategy meant that it would not be that sort of game; if they played they way that they wanted to play, death was guaranteed (unless one of a few annoying bugs, like one that let mech heal without being temporarily invincible, so that it would absorb fire from attacking spawns, occurred).
Because the spawn rush meant that the opposing team couldn't play the way that they wanted to, many complaints were made, and main-line spawn upgrades were first nerfed, then removed, removing this strategy.
2. Late-game, after spending a long time fighting at the temple, in order to make a comeback when my allies are dead: the idea here is that, having gotten far stronger than enemy heroes from having their warp gates send lots of food my way after my own died, the temple has to be kept alive while I attack (and some clearing of enemy spawns will help me move, too). An assemblage of cannons and spawners (especially for reavers) by the base will keep it alive, allowing me to use my newfound power to counterattack instead of dying. This tactic was especially useful against a not-terribly-smart summoner who went into "experience runaway" after my teammates died, because the reavers and cannons could blow away incoming lings.
Apparently, though, this sort of comeback was not very popular, probably since it relied on strategy to defeat enemies who were winning in terms of "skill". Recent changes to how warp gates and healing at the temple work mean that the sort of hanging-on-at-the-temple that made this strategy viable is no longer possible.
3. Late-game fighting against a hero too strong for me to face head-on, but slow and not too good against spawns (LM would often qualify). Unlike (2), in this scenario, the enemy has the strong hero. The idea here was to build a bunch of spawners in order to keep the enemy hero pinned at the temple (because leaving would result in the death of the temple), and then use the map control to build assimilators on every geyser. These assimilators would then be used to build more spawners, placed close to the enemy base, in order to crush the temple.
Unfortunately, as you might expect, the healing/warpgate changes aren't very good for this strategy, either.
I guess what all of this shows is that you have two problems to solve in terms of achieving better integration of spawns and territorial strategy: first, making them genuinely useful, but secondly, making it so that their usefulness will be accepted. Having these things is good for the game; it makes it "smarter", adding an element of creativity to the gameplay that would not otherwise be there (look at all of the interesting things better people think up to gain territory in Storm the Fort: there are various placements of spawners, yes, but also artillery-and-defense formations for defending, moving up the "line of battle" with defenses in order to hit a target with artillery, vehicle-based rush attacks to hit assimilators while the enemy concentrates artillery at the mineral line, and many more). A creative element gives people something to think about when they're not playing; strategy-minded players enjoy thinking up new approaches, and may join/host your game in order to try out what they come up with. The tricky part, if you want your game to be popular, is incorporating them in a way that won't alienate the utterly uncreative and unintelligent people who make up the overwhelming majority of the population, the kind of people who like games where they have the potential to be something other than trash if they just play and practice enough.
Just something to think about...
None.
Can you elaborate on the Warp Gate and Temple Healing changes? I haven't been paying much attention to recent changes :C
@Unpopular spawn mechanics
Yep... these mechanics were kind of thrown in by me at the last minute while trying to create a strategic dichotomy between heroes and spawns.
The Morale system works much better, but is unfortunately introduced much later in my versions, and has never seen the light of day.
The new, and I hope better way to approach this is to have spawns shift differently over time. Meaning that if a team can control and specialize spawns, and make them stronger over longer periods of time, this would validate its power so that it won't anger people, while also making spawns a bigger part of the game.
@incorporation of map control strategies
Yes... this is probably why the idea of having workers mining the assims won't work.. It's a little too complicated for my liking.
In order to integrate map control strategies into the game, it has to seem important without affecting the Heroes' play, which is what most people will think of when playing an AoS.
If you have any ideas, I'd like you to help
@Unpopular spawn mechanics
Yep... these mechanics were kind of thrown in by me at the last minute while trying to create a strategic dichotomy between heroes and spawns.
The Morale system works much better, but is unfortunately introduced much later in my versions, and has never seen the light of day.
The new, and I hope better way to approach this is to have spawns shift differently over time. Meaning that if a team can control and specialize spawns, and make them stronger over longer periods of time, this would validate its power so that it won't anger people, while also making spawns a bigger part of the game.
@incorporation of map control strategies
Yes... this is probably why the idea of having workers mining the assims won't work.. It's a little too complicated for my liking.
In order to integrate map control strategies into the game, it has to seem important without affecting the Heroes' play, which is what most people will think of when playing an AoS.
If you have any ideas, I'd like you to help
None.
Quote from UnholyUrine
UnholyUrinemy general hatred of the editor.... so fuck it..
unless a better, more user-friendly version comes out.. either by Blizzard (i doubt it), or by some young geniuses (in a few years).. I'll be sitting pretty w/o doing anything but play Prisoner Rebellion.
unless a better, more user-friendly version comes out.. either by Blizzard (i doubt it), or by some young geniuses (in a few years).. I'll be sitting pretty w/o doing anything but play Prisoner Rebellion.
Just had to jump in on this one. Man up and learn to use the fuckin' editor already. The reason it's so complicated is because of all the complex and limitless things you can create. Any 'more user-friendly editor' will just compromise this entirely. So, learn to use it, and be patient with Blizzards constant updates and patches to it. It's already been vastly improved from it's first release. And now,
None.
Posting it here doesn't really work cause I've already got some Slaves to do the dirty work for me 
And no.. A User-Friendly Editor wouldn't compromise anything. It'd just make things easier for people to understand it before it shows off its juicy interior. Kind of like dressing up a saggy prostitute so that it makes people feel easier to make their... point of entry...
horrible example...
anyway, dissapear until you find smth to talk about the actual thread
And no.. A User-Friendly Editor wouldn't compromise anything. It'd just make things easier for people to understand it before it shows off its juicy interior. Kind of like dressing up a saggy prostitute so that it makes people feel easier to make their... point of entry...
horrible example...
anyway, dissapear until you find smth to talk about the actual thread
None.
>be faceless void >mfw I have no face
The only especially non-user friendly part of the editor is the data editor. If you can't get the hang of that, become a triggerist or terrainist or artist.
About the spawn system, I'd say that the original spawn system where you could upgrade spawn was broken, but a variation of that could be done and work quite well. Something along the lines of one civ = slightly stronger spawn (as we can modify HP and attack values directly.) So if you use 20 civs on upgrading spawn, they'll be quite beastly but at the same time rather noticeable.
About the spawn system, I'd say that the original spawn system where you could upgrade spawn was broken, but a variation of that could be done and work quite well. Something along the lines of one civ = slightly stronger spawn (as we can modify HP and attack values directly.) So if you use 20 civs on upgrading spawn, they'll be quite beastly but at the same time rather noticeable.
Red classic.
"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."
"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."
The exp values and curves could also be directly changed, so that people may be inclined to upgrade the spawn without having to worry about feeding too much. Also on a similar note, some heroes could perhaps get exp by simply dealing dmg or landing spells on enemy heroes. This would encourage that player-vs-player units try to attack enemy heroes rather than trying to simply out-grind the other heroes (especially if you are trying to out-grind a splasher) or medic could more exp by healing & supporting allies (and maybe something like more exp when healing a dying ally)
None.
Hey guys,
One thing I really liked about Temple Siege was the many different ways you could play a character. For the spell system you were talking about, have you considered making branches for the spells like Diablo? That way (unlike the choice at the beginning example w/ burst mech, speed mech etc), players could respond to what's happening in the game rather than following a strict build.
Ideas along this line are:
- having archer go down an attack path (muta/guard/spam muta) or defense path (hydra, drone -> base, maybe nydus?) like the original, but extending the advantages of reaching the end of a spell branch
-having ling or rine go either the normal attack paths or buffs (so newbs can play total micro)
-having different upgrade types for spells like lm for sc ts.
There's already some adaptation in normal games (hp/mana for spawn rush, specific counters like missile d archer for mech/volt/med, or things like chasing the summy lings as vult mech), and the thing that's very, very fun is discovering new strategies for yourself or being surprised by other players. I would like you to keep that, and I can send you a list I made of these types of ideas if you want.
Another thing I liked was the "last resort" basic abilities a lot of characters had. There's something that inspires a lot of tension with using mael to dodge burrow, plague/snare to uncloak, or manualing through a stun. It also raises the skill cap, which I think is good for this type of game.
Anyway, I think you guys should find help if you're having trouble getting it out soon. TS was one of my favorite games, and I know a lot of people here want to make it as good as it can be. I'm almost ready to release my remake of Heaven's Last Stand, and I think I'm pretty good at making things more efficient and reducing lag, so pm me if you need help with that.
Good luck with the project!
One thing I really liked about Temple Siege was the many different ways you could play a character. For the spell system you were talking about, have you considered making branches for the spells like Diablo? That way (unlike the choice at the beginning example w/ burst mech, speed mech etc), players could respond to what's happening in the game rather than following a strict build.
Ideas along this line are:
- having archer go down an attack path (muta/guard/spam muta) or defense path (hydra, drone -> base, maybe nydus?) like the original, but extending the advantages of reaching the end of a spell branch
-having ling or rine go either the normal attack paths or buffs (so newbs can play total micro)
-having different upgrade types for spells like lm for sc ts.
There's already some adaptation in normal games (hp/mana for spawn rush, specific counters like missile d archer for mech/volt/med, or things like chasing the summy lings as vult mech), and the thing that's very, very fun is discovering new strategies for yourself or being surprised by other players. I would like you to keep that, and I can send you a list I made of these types of ideas if you want.
Another thing I liked was the "last resort" basic abilities a lot of characters had. There's something that inspires a lot of tension with using mael to dodge burrow, plague/snare to uncloak, or manualing through a stun. It also raises the skill cap, which I think is good for this type of game.
Anyway, I think you guys should find help if you're having trouble getting it out soon. TS was one of my favorite games, and I know a lot of people here want to make it as good as it can be. I'm almost ready to release my remake of Heaven's Last Stand, and I think I'm pretty good at making things more efficient and reducing lag, so pm me if you need help with that.
Good luck with the project!
None.
:payne:
Quote
Another thing I liked was the "last resort" basic abilities a lot of characters had. There's something that inspires a lot of tension with using mael to dodge burrow, plague/snare to uncloak, or manualing through a stun. It also raises the skill cap, which I think is good for this type of game.
None.
@Payne
It's still possible to work around it... but yeah, SC2 failed hard on that
@7Owl
Hi Dude. Thanks for your support.
First. Spell Branches was what I initially planned, but a lot of people have told me to keep the game as close to the original as possible, and spell branches would disrupt that.
It all depends on the way the abilities are designed. And how they're upgraded.
Please do! I want to read this list of yours. Any help will be appreciated.
It's still possible to work around it... but yeah, SC2 failed hard on that
@7Owl
Hi Dude. Thanks for your support.
First. Spell Branches was what I initially planned, but a lot of people have told me to keep the game as close to the original as possible, and spell branches would disrupt that.
It all depends on the way the abilities are designed. And how they're upgraded.
Quote
There's already some adaptation in normal games (hp/mana for spawn rush, specific counters like missile d archer for mech/volt/med, or things like chasing the summy lings as vult mech), and the thing that's very, very fun is discovering new strategies for yourself or being surprised by other players. I would like you to keep that, and I can send you a list I made of these types of ideas if you want.
Please do! I want to read this list of yours. Any help will be appreciated.
None.
Quote from UnholyUrine
UnholyUrineGoing into SC2, I'm sure a lot of things have to evolve in order for the game to be appreciated by the new audience.
The bar has been set by SmashCraft and SOTIS, and will later be risen by Blizzard Dota.
But we're trying to focus everything on Gameplay first. If a certain spell's mechanic isn't right for the hero, we'll probably change it.
The bar has been set by SmashCraft and SOTIS, and will later be risen by Blizzard Dota.
But we're trying to focus everything on Gameplay first. If a certain spell's mechanic isn't right for the hero, we'll probably change it.
Just keep in mind. Yes make Temple Siege 2 better than the other but try not to out do yourself. When people create sequels to games they normally try to out do themselves and the game back fires. I believe it's important to keep the passion and overall enjoyment of the game alive. Bring maybe 3 characters from the old Temple Siege back but let the others be made up. Oh, and I know how to make an adventure style game on SC2. That might be good for Temple Siege.
None.
Quote from UnholyUrine
UnholyUrineanyway, dissapear until you find smth to talk about the actual thread
Quote from UnholyUrine
UnholyUrineI've already got some Slaves to do the dirty work for me
I rest my case.
None.
>be faceless void >mfw I have no face
Terrain's mostly done. Several heroes are done, including their abilities. Not so many triggers, which is mostly my fault, as I'm in charge of UI and dialogs, which requires the most triggers (as well as a few other sekrit things which I won't go into detail about 
).
).Red classic.
"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."
"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."
Oh jeeze, Cardinal.
I wouldn't speak so much if I had three maps in production, none finished, and with a total amount of 45 replies.. which is less than 1/3 of the replies here.
Plus, this is Map Theories and Ideas... not Production
Now, go away until you have smth IMPORTANT to say about this thread
over and out.
I wouldn't speak so much if I had three maps in production, none finished, and with a total amount of 45 replies.. which is less than 1/3 of the replies here.
Plus, this is Map Theories and Ideas... not Production
Now, go away until you have smth IMPORTANT to say about this thread
over and out.
None.
OVERWATCH STATUS GO
I think Cardinal's point is valid. Is this vaporware or is TS2 actually happening? You've made it very clear that you don't want to learn the SC2 editor and are just the idea guy, and Jack has been the only one giving substantial updates on this since he seems to be the only one who knows what's going on.
I also wouldn't mock Cardinal's maps as he's at least trying to make something and learn the editor.
Currently Working On:
My Overwatch addiction.
I also wouldn't mock Cardinal's maps as he's at least trying to make something and learn the editor.
Currently Working On: My Overwatch addiction.
Moar IDEAS 
Hopefully you'll input some of my hero ideas... the werewolf was supposed to be a hard unit to master just becuase of the different ins and outs of the different play styles with the human form....
Hero Name :Shifter
Unit type/role : Annoyer/Warrior
Unit Model : Shifty Cloak Wearing Unit If unable to find model then something like a ling will do
Spell 1 : Wave Strike : A couple lings spawn
Spell 2 :Turtle Shell/Shadow Strike>>>> Day Ability : Buffs Defense Lings>>>> Night Ability : Clocks lings temporarily (I'll let you decide for balance reasons)
Spell 3 :Spawns Lurker Temporarily
Spell 4: Shift/Fury of the swarm>>>>Day Ability : Turns into hydra >>>>Night Ability : Spawns lots of lings
Hero Name : Solus-Insenro (Latin for Deadly Plant to sow) Name open to change
Unit Type/Role : Support/Fighter
Unit Model : Any plant type thing
Spell 1 : Sow : Gives plant units to fight (stationary) + Effect of creep tumors (Hydras move faster on tumors<Read below>)
Spell 2 : Reap : Sacrifice Nearest Plant (Read above) for hydra
Spell 3 : Bloom : Plants Give Boast To Heroes + Sparkle Animation(Look Spell 1)
Spell 4 : Fruits of Labour : Temporary Medic for teammates Sacrifice Hydras ---> 1 hydra = 1 medic for 1 person, player number = medic max
Hopefully you'll input some of my hero ideas... the werewolf was supposed to be a hard unit to master just becuase of the different ins and outs of the different play styles with the human form....
Hero Name :Shifter
Unit type/role : Annoyer/Warrior
Unit Model : Shifty Cloak Wearing Unit If unable to find model then something like a ling will do
Spell 1 : Wave Strike : A couple lings spawn
Spell 2 :Turtle Shell/Shadow Strike>>>> Day Ability : Buffs Defense Lings>>>> Night Ability : Clocks lings temporarily (I'll let you decide for balance reasons)
Spell 3 :Spawns Lurker Temporarily
Spell 4: Shift/Fury of the swarm>>>>Day Ability : Turns into hydra >>>>Night Ability : Spawns lots of lings
Hero Name : Solus-Insenro (Latin for Deadly Plant to sow) Name open to change
Unit Type/Role : Support/Fighter
Unit Model : Any plant type thing
Spell 1 : Sow : Gives plant units to fight (stationary) + Effect of creep tumors (Hydras move faster on tumors<Read below>)
Spell 2 : Reap : Sacrifice Nearest Plant (Read above) for hydra
Spell 3 : Bloom : Plants Give Boast To Heroes + Sparkle Animation(Look Spell 1)
Spell 4 : Fruits of Labour : Temporary Medic for teammates Sacrifice Hydras ---> 1 hydra = 1 medic for 1 person, player number = medic max
None.
@Devlin
when you put it that way, it's easier to understand.
Things aren't moving as quickly as everyone'd hope, and to be honest, whether this project will see the light of day is questionable.
There're a lot of things that depends on certain members of the team, and I'm not sure if things will pull together.
With that being the biggest problem that I'm worrying about, the rest of the things are slowly being churned out. I have my doubts, but it is moving along, albeit in a slow pace.
@Tempz
Shifter:
Seems like a mix of Mutant and Summoner. We currently have a new hero that fits this sort of niche, but the ideas are interesting. Thanks
Solus:
Another summoner like hero, but this time, more about buffing and using up its summons. But I like it. It's interesting. Altho there needs to be a spell that grows plants. I have an idea that's similar to this.. we'll c.
And the name's terrible XD
when you put it that way, it's easier to understand.
Things aren't moving as quickly as everyone'd hope, and to be honest, whether this project will see the light of day is questionable.
There're a lot of things that depends on certain members of the team, and I'm not sure if things will pull together.
With that being the biggest problem that I'm worrying about, the rest of the things are slowly being churned out. I have my doubts, but it is moving along, albeit in a slow pace.
@Tempz
Shifter:
Seems like a mix of Mutant and Summoner. We currently have a new hero that fits this sort of niche, but the ideas are interesting. Thanks
Solus:
Another summoner like hero, but this time, more about buffing and using up its summons. But I like it. It's interesting. Altho there needs to be a spell that grows plants. I have an idea that's similar to this.. we'll c.
And the name's terrible XD
None.
:payne:
Quit keeping stuff so secret about the project and ask the community for the things you think you'll be missing input from your current secret-members. ;o
None.
[09:38 pm]
NudeRaider -- UltravioletUltraviolet shouted: NudeRaider sing it brother
trust me, you don't wanna hear that. I defer that to the pros.
[2024-4-26. : 6:51 pm]
Vrael -- It is, and I could definitely use a company with a commitment to flexibility, quality, and customer satisfaction to provide effective solutions to dampness and humidity in my urban environment.[2024-4-26. : 6:50 pm]
NudeRaider -- VraelVrael shouted: Idk, I was looking more for a dehumidifer company which maybe stands out as a beacon of relief amidst damp and unpredictable climates of bustling metropolises. Not sure Amazon qualifies
sounds like moisture control is often a pressing concern in your city[2024-4-26. : 6:50 pm]
Vrael -- Maybe here on the StarEdit Network I could look through the Forums for some Introductions to people who care about the Topics of Dehumidifiers and Carpet Cleaning?[2024-4-26. : 6:49 pm]
Vrael -- Perhaps even here I on the StarEdit Network I could look for some Introductions.
Members Online: NudeRaider, Roy
NudeRaider, Roy