That was an issue, the LM's power on the L1 might need to be bumped up in order to compensate for it not having a huge early damage spell with L2 reavers. I had considered suggesting teleport as the L1 instead so that it would be able to use it multiple times easier, but that would make it rather useless in the early game.

The teleport needs to go somewhere, in my opinion. maybe it can be combined with another spell, but that was my solution in order to keep the character at least somewhat similar to how it currently is. I don't know if it will work, but it can't really be worse than how abusive the character HAS to be now in order to be decent.


I don't know what you mean by "decreasing gameplay." If you think the LM sitting 5 spaces away from his cannons casting reavers or storm on every spawn wave is fun gameplay, we're never going to agree on the hero. The only time it ever changes this pattern is when it has a ton of mana, and then nothing can go near it.

Here are some other possible thoughts that all have the same goal in mind:
1.) Channeling L2 for 3 seconds. When it's done, you turn into a speedy observer/shuttle for a short amount of time. After a bit, the LM spawns, as do 4 temporary dragoons.
2.) Casting L2 spawns 4 dragoons and a corsair. When you cast dweb the LM teleports there. If you don't in 3/4 seconds, the corsair is removed and you stay in the same place. It would take some ridiculous timing for this and the Firebat d-web to be confused.
3.) Casting L1 does the usual but after the 2-second cooldown it turns the character into a Dragoon with 3 life/255 armor for a short amount of time to move more quickly. If it dies, the LM is stunned. The L1 cannot be recast until the Dragoon movement phase ends.
4.) The reaver-abuse problem would still remain with the 3rd suggestion, though, so another option is to switch Reavers/Wall of Light and turn the LM into a Dragoon when Wall of Light is cast.
5.) Make one of the spells give the player an arbiter that can recall. If it's not within a certain distance of the LM (20x20?) order it to move towards the LM. This allows a partial retreat/flank. Obviously the mana cost and regeneration of this would need to be discussed.

I think any one of these could be viable. Anything that stops the teamkill-LM build from being the only viable option. Note that only the 4th (and maybe not even that one: does setting HP% = 0% kill invincible units?) of these changes would interfere with the addition of a Dragoon Hero class, because you'd need to distinguish between the LM in Dragoon form and his minions.


As for the Medic changes, no other character has any of those spells or anything remotely like them. They are already the Medic's own spells, with some changes to make that character less L4-based. Your suggestions might work equally well, I can't say anything for sure without trying them.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 20 2009, 11:54 pm by FaZ-.

If teleport is at Lv2, wouldn't protoss ground spells be more useful now that the LM can teleport onto a hero and cast Lv1? From what i know, LM's Lv1 hurts when all of the hits are focused onto you.

Does anyone really upgrade spawn number anymore?

Only if they rush to Hydras.

My next controversial idea to throw on the table would be redoing spawns.
This would include redoing all HP/damage of spawns (possibly hero damages), spawning all spawns with a percentage of health, and then changing the spawn # upgrade into a spawn HP % upgrade.

I support this idea.

I vote yes, as long as the basic damage improves. They uber-suck right now until hydras, when they tear through everything.

CAFG you're more than welcome to refute my ideas logically, but you calling them bad doesn't make them bad, especially when you never back up your opinions, whatsoever.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 21 2009, 3:06 am by FaZ-.

I definitely think this should be implemented, it cause spawns to be harder to be killed, while not feeding more, but it isn't overly powerful.

If teleportation was to be given to lm, the best way to do it, in my opinion, would be to cast l1 again, anytime l1 is being used.
During the cooldown of l1, the lm would be replaced with an observer for 3 seconds, which would die and replace the lm with 1-2 seconds on invincibility and 4-8 light barriers for 1 shot each; almost like an extended or moving l1, lengthening the period of invincibility. Perhaps the observer could be killed to shorten teleportation distance.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 21 2009, 7:20 am by FlashBeer.

How come moose thinks up all the good ideas?

Idea: Make Mech's Lv3 a damage sumwut like his lv4, and make his lv4 a much stronger tank transformation.

he doesn't personally i am quite fond of unholy's hero spawns and at some point he might be able to run with moose's idea as well which would be extremely cool too.

Maybe there should be perfect kills to cash system, so that it is easier to control the spawn exp.

The spawn system now is the Best I could make them without making it too complicated for myself

The spawn HP thing is not a bad idea.. but considering that Broodling, Zergling, and Hydras are being used as summoning spells by heroes, we can't use them :S...

I do agree that making a level up system that makes the spawns better but don't feed the other team is a good idea.. but it would be hard to implement due to how the game has been structured.
Another problem with the spawn HP thing is that their attacks will be the same, and you'd make the spawns very useless to anyone who has enough armor (which is what it already is like... the spawn leader system nullifies this a bit)

which is exactly why i favor your system atm and well for 1.5 period. For M versions though i can understand where they are coming from as well. They wish to improve the spawn since they haven't added a hero guy to it. And the hp idea is great imo it can be helpful especially early to add a whole new element to gameplay.

For them This seems very good especially since moose has more units at his disposal than 1.5 does. I like yours especially knowing what units you have to work with and regardless id like to see some sort of hero spawn in M versions as well because it does at to the not just feed element and slows summoner down quite a bit.

Maybe by restructuring the spawns in the first place they can have a hero that goes up 1 level above so it doesn't have the overpowering effect like 1.5 on certain heros thus allowing them to skip the compensation phase to help reimprove said heros.

I just had a new idea for the spawn system, since you can't level the hp of spawns.

Instead of starting the game with 'spawn leaders', which pwn some characters and feed others, you could change the increase spawn number (to fix the fact that no one uses it) to 'train spawn leader' or something that sounds better.
- For every 1 civ spent, you replace a current spawn with a leader spawn (same 2 lvl higher spawn)

Another alternative spawn system would be a leader lvl system
Again, replacing spawn number, but this time with 'upgrade leader'
- For every civ spent, the leader goes up a level, then eventually he could become something powerful like an abyssal demon, or even what your heroes are (alternating between your team's hero picks each spawn)
- If you did this system, you could either set it up so that 'upgrade leader' is team-purchasable like 'upgrade spawn' OR have individual purchases, meaning, each person pays for their own leader, so you have 3 leaders per group of spawns (but when you first start the game, perhaps there are no leaders until you first upgrade them, because 3 leaders would trample some heroes at the start)

hmm there's something there that might work, flash.
I'll have to think about it.

You could just spend 1 to counter summoner if he's around. It'd probably be better if it were 3 civs to make 1 spawn leader per 3.

How about you put a pylon under the warp gates, and put in a building which spawns 1 spawn leader at that warp gate, no matter the warp gate (so you can boost in the middle too). It would also have the side effect of easily being able to make spawns go top or bottom rather than middle. The only side effect is the probably unkillable pylon.

Just put it underneath the warp gate and remove it when there is no warp gate at that location, very simple. =o

Anything that makes the spawns more powerful is a good idea to me, I've said that from the beginning. I'd prefer it that spawns never get powerful enough that they decide the game themselves, however, which is the case with dragoons and reavers in a decent number of matchups currently.

i agree with faz. There's quite a lot of games that could easily be won by one team and are beaten by battle tanks. For example: Warrior kills 2 players by himself, and they're completely eliminated. Player 3 on the other team, however, has been saving up and gets 2 war factories. Warrior now 1. has to sit at his base to prevent its destruction, and 2. must use l4 almost constantly to avoid being destroyed by battle tanks. I think the additional buildings such as the war factories are a good idea, but i don' think they are nearly balanced enough, and I also don't think they go along with the idea of the game, which is supposed to be hero vs. hero. Not necessarily pvp, but when one hero can just sit at his own base and completely destroy the other, I think it kills this concept of the game.

Couldn't the Warrior's other two teammates do SOMETHING?

provided both his teamates are dead the warrior between his hp and his third spell which slaughters spawns without even fighting he can get as much exp as he wants. I get your point but warrior was a bad example. There are some units that are completely shut down by certain spawns but the warrior is not one of them.