Something else I just remembered: Warrior's L3 doesn't kill spawned units. I've killed many warriors as summoner who thought it did. Either change the mission objectives so it doesn't say it does, or make it kill spawned units. Also adjust the duration accordingly. I'm not sure how long it is, because I never play warrior (you can't get Warrior with random beacon in M3), but if it doesn't kill spawns, it should be at least a bit longer than volt's L3, since there's no mana drain and it has a much smaller range.

Does Mutant only use Night Vision against Assassin?

Mech and Medic both outrange Spec Ops.

I don't really agree with it being a summon. The idea to change what D-web does sounds pretty good to me though. A one shot stun/mana drain might be a good idea instead of the gradual drain and speed reduction we have now. I think I might do this.

As for Assault's L1, I don't even like Grenade anymore. I might scrap it completely. How about a spell that spawns a few Marines around you to attack for a short burst?

Warrior's stun is instant. Volt's has a charge-up and is very difficult to hit the faster heroes with.
I'll make sure Warrior's L3 takes care of Summoner's lings though.

Id like a chaingun attack, it'd be fun =P, it fits the name "assault"

For a "Chaingun" attack, I reckon scouts would be more appropriate.

Grenade sucks, it's so hard to aim, you need to control both the firebat for survival, and the scourage can be outrun.

You quote 2 completely unimportant things and don't address the major issues I brought up? And yes, mutant's night vision shows the whole map, not 3% of it, so it's much more useful than a scan. You really have nothing to say about the major balance issues M4 introduced?

hence the reason to stun with l1 first it bys enough time for l3 which hurts like a sob. my favorite thing to do pump mana to 220 cast spell 1 spell 3 and then spell 4. ive killed so many full health medics with this. just wait for them to cast heal and seperate back out like they were or if they are alone just continue as normal. stun with S1 then drain mana stun with S3 then finish them off with the massive dmg of your S4.

the warriors level three does kill spawned units but only if player the computer base controls them. you will need to kill any spawned units not part of a spell but ones that walk arround such as fbats nukers, summoner's men, ect.

oh and btw idk how you figure Unholy's 1.5 is like starting from scratch. many of the changes you make are about the same you throw in a new spell and finetune. sometimes this forces the scrapping of other spells. I completely agree you shouldn't be his bitch but Unholy will put in the work he was just asking if you could help him with some of the stuff your better at. Two minds are always greater than one.

Any how as long as you continue on your seprate paths i hope you both actually make the game different. right now it is virtually the same. the only difference is a few new heros and changes to heros. That is the same game in my book and as such makes very little sense to have 2 versions constantly being screwed with. Hopefully you 2 will work it out or there will be some change that classifies this as a new game. Right now its only different spells from two different mappers.

Yes. I know. That is why the class was revamped. Albeit not succesfully, but this isn't news. I believe I gave some mention of my hero choice statistics I was tracking where in all the 15-20 games I tracked nobody willingly picked Assault.

I disagree. Just functioning as a normal disruption web it already saves your life against every melee hero.
Warrior or Mutant trying to L2 you? Use an L1 and you get off with no additional damage.
With some spamming it gets just a little bit cheap. One or two casts wasn't OP, but once you can shoot out two or three webs every time you encounter an enemy hero, it gets a bit out of control.

I've seen some interesting chain stuns vs. some of the not super-fast classes.

I suppose, but it traps. One good hit does a LOT of damage.
Also, I have already agreed to FaZ-'s suggestion of adding some ITs to the blast creation.

I have already addressed the Nuke problem by decreasing the cost of Nuke in the next version.

Assuming this is a typo.

You get three scans. (okay, 10 energy short of 3.)
You've also completely overlooked that your allies can see what you scan as well. I saw a VERY brutal burrowed Mutant ambush backfire with the Mutant's death yesterday.

I might change it to three stuns and/or shorten the duration. That might make things a little better.

Re: Special Ops, how about this arrangement:
L1 - Scanner, same as before. If it's really that underpowered, I'll lower the energy cost of scan to 50.
L2 - Bring back the Vessel for L2. Change energy costs of powers/vessel # limit to suit.
L3 - The current L2, crank up the damage slightly.
L4 - Bomber (as is now, without change I just mentioned [because it's an L4])

It's the best grinding spell in the game. And gets you a free outpost if nobody goes to get rid of the mines. Warrior's L4 also captures an outpost, too. Except that's even harder to stop because instead of taking a few mine hits (most likely for half damage because they're explosive damage, you have to make the Warrior leave too! Okay, maybe you can't take the mines out if you're Volt. Better than EMP, I guess.
I wouldn't call this L4 the most overpowered.

That gets very expensive very fast. And definitely gives you a net mineral gain.

There has been enough discussion on this. I'm still deciding if/when to do this. I will probably follow suit with Unholy and reduce the maximum amount of Zerglings.

You're putting words in my mouth. "Back to square one" and "starting from scratch" are two different idioms. If you play Unholy's plain 1.4 without any of my edits, you'll understand what I'm talking about.

Also, a note that I have confirmed the random hero beacon WILL give Warrior in 1.4M4.

Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Feb 27 2009, 4:30 am by Theodore Roosevelt.

Seems better. Maybe if you gave it a 25 Energy Defensive Matrix, 50 Energy Irradiate, and 250 Energy EMP, and require the Vessel energy upgrade to be researched at Science Facility for 60 minerals or something, that would be fair. The only time I ever see Vessel usage though is against a Volt, Assault Bomber+Nuker, or DT. Against a Volt EMP is just complete stomp, so it's either that or take it out of the game.

However, if you add in this Vessel that makes the L1 nearly worthless, especially if you can have more than one at a time. It already detects and visions allies. I really don't know of a fitting spell, I feel like putting its first damage spell at L3 is going to force a lot of people to just tank with it.

As for hitting with Firebomb, it's just like the old L2. It's not a finisher, it's a starter. You need to use it against people from a cliff at night, flying out to explode. Then you take them out. Because of this the Firebat definitely needs some sort of stun, and more than one would help. That's why I suggested the "Charge Spell" earlier that's somewhat similar to Warrior's L3. I have another idea you might like better:

L1: Detpack - Places some sort of easily killable powerup, a vespene gas tank or something with 5 hp/255 armor that explodes in 30 seconds. If it does, it brings any enemy buildings near it to 10% life (100% shields) and stuns any nearby heroes for 8-10 seconds. Debatable whether or not to allow it to capture. It would definitely need a 3-5 second animation telling you that it's about to go off. This lets the Firebat destroy buildings like an "Assault" class should be able to, but at a fair speed. He still needs to fight through the shields, but that doesn't take him forever because he's concussive damage. Still though, that last 10% life would take a decent amount of time, so it would see more use against assimilators or with teammates to destroy cannons.

Also, a glitch: The marine turned into a ghost and I believe when he turned back into a Marine he was stuck between the two pillars just north of the middle warp gate. (I'm not entirely positive on this, I died and at night before I saw him changed back but he said he could not move and quit; that's what I assume happened.) Probably won't happen frequently, but put some sort of doodad in there anyway to be sure.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Feb 24 2023, 12:45 pm by Decency.

Hmmm.... yeah. What if we just had a max 1 vessel that worked like DM's Dark Orb?

Not a gigantic fan of the detpack. ;o

I actually should have anticipated some problems here. The Ghost is smaller than the Marine and can fit into some places that the Marine can't.

The L2 is still nearly useless against most opponents, so that's 7 civs into spell level/mana before he sees much out of it except against certain opponents. Helloooo Marine tanks.

The Vessel as an L1 might work, that's about it. But one of the Marine's first two spells in the build you gave needs to be changed. I personally think that keeping the Ghost at L2 is best, if its duration/damage need to be changed a bit, better that than moving it to L4.

I'm really not a fan of the Marine Burst, the Assault needs something to help set up his nuke. I thought Detpack was a great combo for that, especially with his concussive damage. I don't have any other thoughts.

So wait.... you want to make the Lv2 version of this Lv3 have a less expensive irradiate?(It's most useful spell when not vsing Volt...)

If we're limiting it to 1 Vessel, yes. The spawn Energy should be right around 25.

Faz-, vespene tank has infinite armor and can't be created via triggers.

One vessel would be a good thing, however if it's dark orbish, the costs of emp/def/irradiate would have to be higher. I wouldn't mind a sci vessel on a timer, which could cast spells immediately.

That makes killing it tricky, you could say that you have to walk next to it to disarm, I guess. You can simply place one off the arena with a max of one at a time and use move/give triggers. If Moose isn't going to like it though it's scrapped; I'm just trying to come up with some new ideas that can be comboed well with the Assault's other spells. That is definitely comboable with all 3 of the other spells, if it replaced his grenade.

I could see an L2 Orbish-Vessel working for the Spec Ops, or the L1 Scan working, but not both. Suggestions?

Detection is really the only redundant area, but it's a rather big one...

It's rather easy for me to hit people with the grenade

same here! and in 1.4m4 i was basically stun locking people with it :]

I have no greater joy in life than spamming mana and perma-locking them down for as long as I can (their teammates come)

whoa something happened in 1.4m4 during the hero selection, everyones' sc crashed. No idea what the cause was.