How so? Pulling off a victory with a randomly chosen hero has potential to display more skill than pulling off a victory with a proven counter.

But it shouldn't happen in a pro game. If you want to win, you choose. If you want to stay pub level, you random. It's that simple.

Random doesn't need extra minerals, if Random didn't show what you picked until the game started, that would be enough of an advantage (similar to how StarCraft's option to choose Random as a race works). Just throwing that out there.

Pros at other SC AoS maps random all the time. "Random is for pub noobs" is a horrible mentality.

^This. Actually I agree with this guy for once, well said. If you are facing anyone good, you are picking bottom line. Why decrease your chances of winning for 10 minerals and some glory?

If you are facing anyone with half a brain you will not random, even more so if hes picking. You are potentially sealing your fate for a loss show to off your skills and for 10 minerals?

No thanks. It takes more skill to build a solid team rather than random. In addition, random could potentially lead you into a horrible team combination (LM,Med,DM for example) that is beyond your control. All for a grand total of 30 minerals split evenly? It is not worth it. Play to win, not for 10 minerals and LULZ.

EDIT: On top that, Picking is even more crucial in low-level pubs because of the fact they random so often. You need to throw some odds in your favor to win by picking.

Okay time to clear things up.

This is how the brain works for low level skill players. In essense it works the same as Easy Mode in HoN for anyone who understands gaming concepts. Basically All Random increases the chance for bad players to win from introducing a luck factor, this is why 'bads' and 'pubs' love this so much. Essentially, it is lowering the 'skill ceiling' in order to decrease the gap between the worse player and better player. Pubs will not understand this, so I don't bother explaining it. Also atleast 80% of the games are completely one sided and usually rests on the shoulder 'who is more awful' rather then anything else.

If you want me to explain more or give references I will, it applies to just about any game of decent skill value (e.g chess)

One of the reasons why this map doesn't have any solid 'pro' community is because solid team picks, metagame planning and strategic countering does not take any place among the masses. There is literally less than 5 pros of this game, ever. A lot of people have a belief that countering individual heroes is 'noob' but pre-M9 it is actually an advantage to pick all 3 of your heroes first before the other team; the fact that the TIMER is implented is another huge reason for this. Even I have done horrible picks from forced timer pressure. This is a good thing.

"Random is for noobs" is the blunt statement. I warn to ban anyone who tries to random in my games. This is because I'm sick to death of the absolute scrub matches where 90% of the time they are triple countered by one goddam hero. Believe it or not, hero play is only a minor stage in the game. When people say "random is for pros because it shows you can play all heroes" I won't even mention the fact they can't play any of the heroes, let alone all. The basic fact is that atleast 60% of the game is strategic picks and play and the fact you can play all heroes isn't even relevant. For example, you have the most pro rine (lol oxymoron), most pro ling (lol again) and most pro warrior on the same team. This is absolutely rubbish when you are a crappy pubstomp combo and going to lose to the very average Assault who just triple countered your entire team.

Can't agree more Fashioned.

Yes. Like said earlier. Rand v Rand in a pro game is just a product of chance. And you can't rand in pro games. You have a small chance you'll get lucky, or a a large chance you'll get something you'll lose with.

Excellent post. Very well written and thought out, I just want to add some things of my own.

1) In my experience of playing TS mataches, players who claim random is for pros usually tend to be the scrubs/bads. The line they continue to dole out is: "Random is pros it shows you can play every hero". Tis is the smokescreen to cover the obvious elephant in the room: They are bad. Going along with what fashioned said, how can the match be skill based when the Luck factor can give you a 0% chance of winning or 100% chance. The match essentially becomes a pseudo-lottery, not a true test of skills/wits. When luck is involved, skill gets thrown out the window. Why give ten minerals to encourage this bad pubby behavior?

2) The one thing Fashioned left out is gameplay perspectives that individual players have. Usually by reading or examining what an indiviual metagame perspectives are regarding TS, you can accurately discern where their personal skill level is. For example, A player who says Ling can beat a medic at a cap race and both of are equal skill, obviously that player is going to pubstar. Your personal views regarding meta-game strategies mirror your skill level. I have yet to meet one person who has bad meta-game analysis, but yet is good at the game despite his flawed logic regarding temple siege strategy. I just thought point this out. In conclusion if a guy is saying Ling counters firebat, avoid him. He is most likely pubstar.

3) Then of course there are the pubstars who pick. "Wait one second DoLLe, you just said picking is for Pros!?!? That doesnt make sense!". Picking is for pro's but the reality of it is, there exsists a pubstar twist to picking. Ever notice that SpecOps and Mutant are the most picked and pubstar heroes in the game?* (Honorable mention goes to LM here too). If you ever watch a pub match, and trust me I was pubstar too, the most feared and picked are rine and ling. Power rine and Lurker ling, and they are quite effective in a pub match simply because both sides are so bad. They lack the necessary strategic insight to counter-pick these two very beatable heroes. Fashioned already mentioned this, both are are countered by one hero.

Why are the popular you ask? Because, they are chosen due to their pick-up-and-play mentality. Pick-up-and-play meaning, in a pub match all you need to is be alive have a pulse and you can win with these heroes in a public game. This is what they think: Easy heroes, easy damage, Both good auto-attacks, both farm pretty good, Lurkers rape all, 30+ up rines rapes all, Slam Dunk right?

Wrong, The problem is both are EXTREMELY easy to kill but pubbies will never see this or don't have the insight to see this. Rine does take some skill to utilize now due to his rework but pubbies bread and butter is guess what: Suprise, Power rine. One thing people dont realize about mutant is that his skill ceiling is extremely low, the difference between a Pro mutant and Scrub mutant will probably be L2 skill and the pub probably suiciding more, meaning there will be little variation. Mutant is a near joke hero if you know what you are doing here is why:

-Mutant is a bad capper, ironic because he needs sims to thrive, in contrast Hydra is a good capper and shares a somewhat similar role to ling.
-No lane harass capabilities what so ever.
-Extremely fragile.
-Outside of lurkers which is 80 mana a pop, his farming mechanism is awful, made even worse because he has no lane harass.
However once he makes it to rines, then lurkers will make him pumped beyond belief.
-If you can dodge, his l2 is useless outside a stun. Seriously, just dodge.
-If you know what you are doing, his L3 is equally useless. Do not over extend yourself, i.e: In the middle of the map at nightime, and you will be fine.
-Honestly, just my opinion, The only person he really hard counters is DT and Maybe Mana Rine. LM is debatable.

Even in my pub days, I avoided using mutant because I always got the sense he was pick-up-and-play hero, not much in the thought department. As I got better and developed my skills, my intuition was correct. He is a near joke hero in high-tier play, however outside of high-tier he will continue to thrive.

Talk. Flame. Discuss.

*NOTE: The SpecOps takes actual skill to use now, problem is the pubstar build still prevail.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jun 12 2010, 9:31 pm by DoLLe.

Does the lv3 mech death glitch ever happen for south? I think I found the problem. I also notice that assault's ds will sometimes spawn in mid, and sometimes with only 2 vults. Does this only happen with south as well?

Was Medic's new L1 removed? Everytime I use it whether I explode the infested or not, it's the old L1.

Yeah, what's going on with the medic l1? I had a mate learning to play, so I doubt he noticed the IT. He was a red medic in two games, same m9e in both games, but in one he had old l1, and the other he had new l1.

@Randoming there is one positive thing to be said for randoming: in practice matches, against random people, it's useful for learning purposes. You get thrown against varying skill levels and varying heroes, and you are forced to adapt and learn. Plus it prevents you sticking to one hero that you're good at, so you know enough about other heroes to better understand how to counter them. But in a proper non-training match, it has no place.

@DoLLe I see plenty of jabs against me in your post, I guess I really annoy you considering you think I'm another bad pub player Interesting that you say mutant has bad farming ability, because if I recall correctly, I had more exp as mutant vs your team than you did as rine, and you were feeding outside a base with mines too. I wasn't even farming well that game, too. Mutant has pretty average farming, but quite good farming (without lurks) considering he's a melee hero.

All I remember is you trapping yourself to die once then me raping you with irri and sniper. What is your point.

EDIT: I watched the replay. at the end of the replay I got ahead because I killed you, and here are some other interesting facts.

-You never got beyond 60 mana in that game as Mutant, you died on lings. Which means you never upped mana. Completely ridiculous
-On top of that you got 5-6 civs into minerals, and you never landed a L2. Maybe you could have if you have gotten over 60 mana whoops
-Why were you simming as ling. Why?
-Why did you only get 1HP, meant nothing, you literally had no mana why waste on civ into HP if you are only good for one l2?
-I was being splashed by volt, thats why my Exp was low. Good thing I killed you two times to bring it back up.
-I dont even think you upgraded ling atk speed as your terribad build as power ling. Just awful. Unacceptable, get your mind right.
-You couldnt even help your allie at bottom because 1) You messed up your build so bad 2) You only had 1 L2 outta 60 mana 3) you were useless 4) ling cannot resuce early/mid. Hence why hes pubstar.
-You have like 181 final exp and you were good for only ONE L2, and you couldnt even aim it properly just wow.
-You always used l2 outside of a stun, when there was no chance to use it. Especially if its only good for one.

Anyone want to see this replay. I am not trying to flame, but this is ridiculous Fashioned already saw the replay. I want witnesses to see this. Seriously, this is below even pubstar standard.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jun 13 2010, 12:45 am by DoLLe.

You weren't farming. Ever. That is the point. I just watched the replay and all it involved was you running around with 5 civs into minerals trying to L2, running back to base to heal, running back, repeat. Don't even know why you were trying when it's countered by a single right click. You mention having slightly higher xp, but don't mention the fact that the rine was farming with Volt, and the Archer was farming with your rine. The practically only reason you even had xp was from the shared experience from allies.

The irradiate was a good move, I'll admit that. I can't remember my first death, and the sniper death was because I suicided as my allies had been elimed or left.

My ling build isn't mana heavy till around lings. Because I had died twice by then, I upped HP to enhance survivability. It was my first game of the day, and I knew I suck on my first game without fail, so HP was a logical way for me to survive while I warmed up.

I simmed because my allies weren't very good and refused to sim, even though either would have been better simmers.

I shouldn't have had to help my ally bottom, I don't know HOW he managed to get himself owned so quickly as rine with the temple nearby.

I held off ling atk speed because I had to sim.

Volt either died or left, which was why I tried to l2 without a stun.

And yeah, I fed badly that game as I already said. First game of the day and all.

Volt died at the end of the game, AFTER you spent the entire time running around hoping that someone is AFK while you L2 them.

First game of the day? Havn't heard that one before.

Last time i'm addressing this, because this HAS to be a joke. Why even bring up that embarassing game?

1) Your Mutant isn't mana heavy until ling spawn? What the hell? You are going to cap yourself at 60 mana? LEt me get this straight, you arent mana heavy until goblin spawn, When his L1 might be the best utility spells in the game? Again, Volt and Mutant, one of the best gank combos and you are holding off on mana for what? I don't understand this terrible, terrible buiild. It doesnt even make any sense. This is not even a flame, this is basic TS.

2) Why even upgrade your melee attack beyond what was required if you never planned on getting Ling attack speed, you are not going to kill ANYBODY without it unless they are TOTALLY asleep at the wheel. If you were going to sim, which is bad in the first place, then why waste your minerals on attack upgrades (you increased it to 10) with an L2 thats not going to kill without the Crackling upgrades. IT makes absolutely no sense. First game of the day does not equate to bad builds or understanding of TS.

3) If you are going to sim complete the sims at the start of the game, NOT finishing them up at Goblin Spawn. All that was needed was probably 3 civs maximum into minerals for simming. Not the gross amount of civs you wasted on minerals for nothing. In retrospect you maybe spent more civs into Minerals than I thought.

4) You basically werent farming, i watched the replay, you were running around doing nothing for about near 1:30.

5) Summary of all the factors:

-mauybe about 5-7 into minerals
-only had enough for one l2
-couldnt even l1 and l2 with your 60 mana, the most basic ling combo
-you didnt even get crackling upgrades for your "power ling"
-Only one into hp is useless
-Finished sims at goblins, and you only had 60 mana at goblins
-you were barely farming

How were you going to fix the poor build if it continued on into rines?

BOTTOM LINE: You were useless, if you casted one spell you were regulated to auto attacking because your mana pool was horrible. You did your team a disfavor. How can you even give ling advice when you are doing poor builds like this. This is not flaming, this is fact. and its all in a replay. I'm not delving into this again, anyone one of my fellow TS'ers with half a brain who saw this REplay would agree and ask waht you are doing. I'm done talking about this, you should be ashamed of yourself.

This is a joke. Your play was horrible, your build was horrible just bad all around. Stop trolling, because this is an obvious troll post, that game was an embarassment.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jun 13 2010, 1:22 am by DoLLe.

Poor RCDF...

I agree with all you said DoLLe, random actually isn't good at the pro level gaming, and even more now that both teams have separate pick zones, it's impossible to attempt a 'steal' with random to throw your opponents.

But I still think that +10 minerals for random should still be there. Encourages those idiots to random so we can pound them even harder. I'll always pick rine.

P.S. I never power rined even in the 3.4 days. Rine is actually the most micro-able hero, due the amount of diversity stims and mines the rine can offer. Ever dueld (and killed) a hp zealot with only +8 attack in late game?

No matter your skill level we all have bad games at times. There's games that I just absolutely cannot focus, my fingers are clumsy, and I mess up a lot. Other times I'll be up against a moderate team + someone above average and have absolutely terrible teammates. I can sympathize with Jack, because if you don't sim on your team it won't get done. Or it'll finally be done late game, if your allies are still alive. It's pretty much like playing a 1v3, only worse because your two allies are feeding the other team. But to call a bad game a troll is ridiculous at best.



No one who knew what they were doing with war would ever be concerned with a mere +8 rine. Anything under 30 damage mid-late game should be considered harmless (+10 l1, +10 shield, +10 armor).

Bomber glitching happens both sides CAFG, the most prevelant glitch is spawning 2 or no bombs, another glitch is when the bomber dies it decides to spawn the other side of the map somewhere randomly.