Temple Siege M8e (Topic)

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Ling + l2 + 5Ups + Stun + Cracklings = DEad hero 3-4minutes in. How is that crap damage, its a 1shot in and out affair? It's also funny how you don't EVER mention cracklings once.

Let's do some maths shall we?
Ling does, say, 4 hits in one l2. 13 lings in one l2, with about 11 attacking in a perfectly placed l2. 10 base damage + 4 ups (reasonable if you're rushing cracklings) = 22 attack each ling. 11 x 22 x 4 = 968 damage. Add in 6 armour on the person you're attacking, ad you get 16 x 11 x 4 = 704 damage. One stun + a perfectly placed l2 gives you that. Now, if you go 9 ups before l2, you have the full length of the stun to attack with, and you have at least 39 damage per hit. After armour, that's 33 damage a hit. Mutant is devouring one, so he's getting something like 24 hits in a 12 second stun, which is reasonable (double mael, or 3 volt l1's). That's 792 damage. With 9 upgrades, mutant 2hits broods, which means better farming. When he DOES get l2, he has 9 ups, and possibly cracklings from farming and sims. The damage he is doing THEN per l2 is 31 (still assuming 6 armour) x 8 (cracklings speed) x 11 = 2728 damage. Get one more upgrade after cracklings and that's a dead cannon. You can just about kill a fully healed medic with that. With 2 l2's, which is reasonable a couple minutes later, you can kill anything except a FH warrior with l4 or l1.

Rushing l2 is simply bad maths.

Let me get this straight.

You are comparing Ling L2, to a 12 second stun auto-attack.

You are comparing 4 hits, to 24 hits.

Worst goddam use of maths I've ever seen.
The numbers you are comparing should be 968 and 148.

If anyone doesn't realize his stupidity now, just shoot me.

Edited from cursing.

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Quote from

Jack

Quote from 24million

Okay, that post didn't have any solid logic. You just stated that a mutant will do more damage with l2 later in the game than he will earlier. The advantage of rushing l2 is that you can deal that damage when you need it, sooner. If an enemy gets a stun on them early game (as in, before your upgrades-->l2 build gets l2), you won't be able to do as much damage. Either way, you will be able to farm just fine, since even if you have to heal, you're fast enough to not miss out on much. It would be easier to fight heroes with the upgrades first, since l2 most likely won't hit, but mutant shouldn't be fighting heroes 1v1 too much that early, anyways. The big difference is that rushing l2 gives you the possibility to land an early kill, which is what makes mutant so deadly. If mutant gets an early kill or two, his xp lead will just grow and grow, eventually having an extremely strong l2 or upgraded l3 that can kill anything. Your math is right, but there was no point in calculating that. Obviously, either way, he will do more damage later, but who is to say he won't get any upgrades AFTER rushing l2? Early upgrades do not help out very much, unless you are really trying to win a cap, which you most likely won't without the help of allies, which would likely bring a stun, for which you need l2. Either way, rushing l2 gives you the benefits of capitalizing on a stun earlier, and that pays more than being able to farm a little bit easier.

Did you read the maths? Mutant without l2 but with upgrades does more damage early game than with l2. How is that not sound logic?

Quote from DoLLe

One last thing, you should mention: seriously, who has 6armor at the start of the game without gimping themselves? Nobody rushes armor at the start, the most you will see is two armor.

It isn't THAT early game. It's early enough for first civ plus at least 2 more, splash feeders would have more. Probably after base cap at this stage, maybe mid still loose.

Splash feeders dont rush armor, again are we playing the same game? Usual standard is pump attack usually until Lings, not armor. Because splash doesnt tank spawn since it DPS's the spawn down so fast. You also mention a stunner in your maths and post. Problem is 9/10 out of the stunner is usually attacking the victim as well, so again why would you delay L2. Even if they have 6 armor, and u landed L2 and they managed to survive. I think the 30 + 25 volt attacking alongside you will negate any advatange 6 armor would bring, dont you agree?

Edit: Missed the 12 second second....so you are telling me anyone stunned for 12 seconds isnt dead?

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jun 14 2010, 9:05 pm by DoLLe.

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DoLLe wake up, he is leading you off track. Read my post.

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Edit: Wow the posts fucked up.

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Quote from DoLLe

I love you. Have my kids?

Also, it depends on how long you have to kill them. For example, if you try to mael/stun someone with a damage spell, like archer, you won't be able to just auto attack them, since mutas will rape you. But with l2, your dps is a lot higher for when you need it. Besides, youre not always gonna have an extremely long stun. Besides, if you take out the armor, if you get something like 2 maels or 3 volt l1's, theyre pretty much dead anyways, whether you went upgrades or l2. The only difference is if you get a much shorter stun and you have less time to deal out the same damage. And, if you up mana two times, you have the opportunity for 2 l2s, which is gonna kill anything if you have a stun. However, 70 more minerals isn't gonna do anything... Simply put, l2 gives more dps for when it's important, and it gets more damage per upgrade.

Quote from DoLLe

One last thing, you should mention: seriously, who has 6armor at the start of the game without gimping themselves? Nobody rushes armor at the start, the most you will see is two armor. Exceptions to this rule is usually warrior.

This is also true.

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Quote from DoLLe

One last thing, you should mention: seriously, who has 6armor at the start of the game without gimping themselves? Nobody rushes armor at the start, the most you will see is two armor. Exceptions to this rule is usually warrior.

Anyone who's played with me knows I almost always have more armor than dmg as DM. I'm just sayin. :-_-:

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Quote from

OlimarandLouie

Quote from DoLLe

One last thing, you should mention: seriously, who has 6armor at the start of the game without gimping themselves? Nobody rushes armor at the start, the most you will see is two armor. Exceptions to this rule is usually warrior.

Anyone who's played with me knows I almost always have more armor than dmg as DM. I'm just sayin. :-_-:

First time ever hearing that!

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Quote from

Jack

Quote from 24million

Okay, that post didn't have any solid logic. You just stated that a mutant will do more damage with l2 later in the game than he will earlier. The advantage of rushing l2 is that you can deal that damage when you need it, sooner. If an enemy gets a stun on them early game (as in, before your upgrades-->l2 build gets l2), you won't be able to do as much damage. Either way, you will be able to farm just fine, since even if you have to heal, you're fast enough to not miss out on much. It would be easier to fight heroes with the upgrades first, since l2 most likely won't hit, but mutant shouldn't be fighting heroes 1v1 too much that early, anyways. The big difference is that rushing l2 gives you the possibility to land an early kill, which is what makes mutant so deadly. If mutant gets an early kill or two, his xp lead will just grow and grow, eventually having an extremely strong l2 or upgraded l3 that can kill anything. Your math is right, but there was no point in calculating that. Obviously, either way, he will do more damage later, but who is to say he won't get any upgrades AFTER rushing l2? Early upgrades do not help out very much, unless you are really trying to win a cap, which you most likely won't without the help of allies, which would likely bring a stun, for which you need l2. Either way, rushing l2 gives you the benefits of capitalizing on a stun earlier, and that pays more than being able to farm a little bit easier.

Did you read the maths? Mutant without l2 but with upgrades does more damage early game than with l2. How is that not sound logic?

Quote from DoLLe

One last thing, you should mention: seriously, who has 6armor at the start of the game without gimping themselves? Nobody rushes armor at the start, the most you will see is two armor.

It isn't THAT early game. It's early enough for first civ plus at least 2 more, splash feeders would have more. Probably after base cap at this stage, maybe mid still loose.

Your build on ling is wrong, who cares about your math. I'll be totally blunt too, anyone who has 6 armor at start is pubstar.

No he doesn't. Early game there is no twelve second second stun outside of volt L1 whoring with 120 mana, and 10 upgrades into auto-attack isn't going to kill anyone and screws up your build. When you need instant DPS on the spot especially in a temafight early for mid, you need L2, sitting there auto-attacking setting yourself up for the other team stun you isn't going to work. Your maths are horrible because nobody has 6 armor at start unless they are noober. 5-6 upgrades + w/ cracklings with a clean hit, with the stunner attacking or even no attacking is GG for the hero.

You really have no idea what you are talking about. Everytime you try to discuss ling you always end up being wrong. Just stop. Your horrible play with him also reflects into your ideas.

Quote from

OlimarandLouie

Quote from DoLLe

One last thing, you should mention: seriously, who has 6armor at the start of the game without gimping themselves? Nobody rushes armor at the start, the most you will see is two armor. Exceptions to this rule is usually warrior.

Anyone who's played with me knows I almost always have more armor than dmg as DM. I'm just sayin. :-_-:

Not the brightest idea.

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My build as DM makes me very durable. I almost always have something that prevents me from dieing. (i.e. mael, l2, ensnare, enough armor to withstand spawn, and sometimes pseudo-block with Dorb)

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Quote from

OlimarandLouie

My build as DM makes me very durable. I almost always have something that prevents me from dieing. (i.e. mael, l2, ensnare, enough armor to withstand spawn, and sometimes pseudo-block with Dorb)

Armor for DM means nothing except for spawn. Thats it. With her crappy farm besides broods, why waste it on armor. Even With armor Bat,Mech,Summoner, and Volt still rape you. Thats not to say not get armor, but to have it more than your attack isn't too bright, especially when your Best DPS move is reliant on attack. This is even worse if you lost caps. Better off leveling attack.

Overall you want to pump attack, because late game if it gets to that, you are regulated to stunning and trapping, nearly anyone offensive will face rape you (Archer, Mech, Rine). Not killings, unless you are against pubs then CARRY TO VICTORY. Imo, strictly mid game hero with a scaling stun and good Trap spell. Thats it.

DM starts becoming a liability late game, UNLESS, you have full map control and broken into their base, then shes a god.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jun 15 2010, 9:41 pm by DoLLe.

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Don't ever tell me how to play DM.

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Quote from

OlimarandLouie

Don't ever tell me how to play DM.

Coming from the guy who says DM owns mech =/.

Seen your DM btw, nothing spectacular :-_-:

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Since I'm not a mod, I'm just gonna ask everyone to turn the hate down a notch.

Still looking for a way to glitch firebat lv3 on command.

http://waitbutwhy.com/2013/09/why-generation-y-yuppies-are-unhappy.html
"We're being taught to hate downwards"

Quote from

ClansAreForGays

Since I'm not a mod, I'm just gonna ask everyone to turn the hate down a notch.

Still looking for a way to glitch firebat lv3 on command.

CAFG: Since MT the bomber glitch has been completely random there is no direct way, to reproduce the 2bomb/No bomb/Random placed bomber. However the best way to force it to happen is let hte bomber die and spawn it again.

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Still Napping

Yes, repeatedly re-spawning the ds would eventually get you the glitch.

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Just a reminder that the tournament is tommorow. So if you are playing a ts game between now and then, just mention it. That's how I got half the people to show up for the first one.

http://waitbutwhy.com/2013/09/why-generation-y-yuppies-are-unhappy.html
"We're being taught to hate downwards"

Will do. one guy actually had the nerve to ask me why we were holding it in op sen because

Quote from

MrrLL

op SEN is full of fags!

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Can someone explain to me a few things.

I know i just recently got back to SEN and all, but i'm still seeing things that have no counter at all, or such a small counter that without a draft system, even tournaments are unbalanced.

Stuff like how on any lane youve taken the base in, you CANNOT stop summmoner from farming that lane without denying yourself exp for the time you do him, or more.

Also, why is splash farming allowed, other then crappy starcraft mechanics? I can see volt... I can see lm...somewhat. I cant see how it's fair to let firebat farm every single wave killing almost every spawn, in effect gaining more exp and denying you some.

Firebat is basically a counter or lose hero, and if you counter him, you counter him hard...

1v1 at temple.
Melee? let me kill you /stall with l1 for an hour until my team comes. (VG)

Ranged? Kk stall for as long as possible, probably lose tower/life. (B)

1v1 in lane...(no l3)

LM - Storm or l1 or no farm, if early l2 takes some farm sometimes, not much. (G)
Warrior - No farm for you! warrior l2 = fbat l1 for effective win. (VG)
Mutant - No farm for you! Same as above (VG)
Volt - Some farm, not nearly as much as Fbat unless your 1hitting the creeps. Can't do any damage to a good fbat. (VG)
Archer - Some farm, not much. Can harass fbat, cannot kill. (OK)
Rine- Not much farm, can harass but alot slower then most. (G)
Mech - Wins lane hands down, mostly due to fbat doing like 1/4 damage. (VB)
Medic - Won't farm much, if harassing won't do much damage. Can't be harassed out of lane however. (G)
DM - Storm to farm, not much else. (G)
Summoner - Leave lane, no farm at all, will feed if tries. (VG)
Assasin - Cannot farm.

1v1 in lane...(has l3 and as will always happen on good teams, there is a teammate who can come to help you within the 8x4=32 second stun)

LM - Cannot farm without a very big mana supply (OK)
Warrior - No farm for you! (VG)
Mutant - No farm for you! (VG)
Volt - no farm without SEVERE risk. (G)
Archer - Needs a decent damage output from spells to farm, better hope your not l3 archer. (OK)
Rine- No farm, good micro beats rine l3. (VG)
Mech - Depends on the side person, if they can kill mech in a 32 second stun with him man....wait anyone who isnt stupid can do that, loses the lane. (G)
Medic - No farm unless sitting on own cannons, then very little. (VG)
DM - Storm to farm, nothing else. (G) EDIT: Changed from VG to G upon OlimarandLouie's reasoning.
Summoner - Leave lane, no farm at all, will feed if tries. (VG)
Assasin - Cannot farm at all, cannot gank during night without help from a ranged friend (VG)

And in teamfights, a good fbat is INVALUABLE. His lack of a need for l4 combined with his ability to stun someone and prevent them & their spell effects from hitting is INSANE. The only spell effects he cannot stop from attacking are archers. l1,l3,&l4.

I have marked all matchups that are posted with Very Good, Good, OK, Bad, or Very Bad. All of these are from the side of the Fbat.

Did i make some huge mistakes somewhere (if so please correct me.) Or is Fbat as i see he is, VERY UNBALANCED.

EDIT: Upon Oli reminding me, added Assasin.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jun 18 2010, 12:10 am by MEMEME670.

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Still Napping

rine l3 needs cooldown

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Quote from MEMEME670

Can someone explain to me a few things.

I know i just recently got back to SEN and all, but i'm still seeing things that have no counter at all, or such a small counter that without a draft system, even tournaments are unbalanced.

Stuff like how on any lane youve taken the base in, you CANNOT stop summmoner from farming that lane without denying yourself exp for the time you do him, or more.

Also, why is splash farming allowed, other then crappy starcraft mechanics? I can see volt... I can see lm...somewhat. I cant see how it's fair to let firebat farm every single wave killing almost every spawn, in effect gaining more exp and denying you some.

Firebat is basically a counter or lose hero, and if you counter him, you counter him hard...

1v1 at temple.
Melee? let me kill you /stall with l1 for an hour until my team comes. (VG)

Ranged? Kk stall for as long as possible, probably lose tower/life. (B)

1v1 in lane...(no l3)

LM - Storm or l1 or no farm, if early l2 takes some farm sometimes, not much. (G)
Warrior - No farm for you! warrior l2 = fbat l1 for effective win. (VG)
Mutant - No farm for you! Same as above (VG)
Volt - Some farm, not nearly as much as Fbat unless your 1hitting the creeps. Can't do any damage to a good fbat. (VG)
Archer - Some farm, not much. Can harass fbat, cannot kill. (OK)
Rine- Not much farm, can harass but alot slower then most. (G)
Mech - Wins lane hands down, mostly due to fbat doing like 1/4 damage. (VB)
Medic - Won't farm much, if harassing won't do much damage. Can't be harassed out of lane however. (G)
DM - Storm to farm, not much else. (G)
Summoner - Leave lane, no farm at all, will feed if tries. (VG)
Assasin - Cannot farm.

1v1 in lane...(has l3 and as will always happen on good teams, there is a teammate who can come to help you within the 8x4=32 second stun)

LM - Cannot farm without a very big mana supply (OK)
Warrior - No farm for you! (VG)
Mutant - No farm for you! (VG)
Volt - no farm without SEVERE risk. (G)
Archer - Needs a decent damage output from spells to farm, better hope your not l3 archer. (OK)
Rine- No farm, good micro beats rine l3. (VG)
Mech - Depends on the side person, if they can kill mech in a 32 second stun with him man....wait anyone who isnt stupid can do that, loses the lane. (G)
Medic - No farm unless sitting on own cannons, then very little. (VG)
DM - Storm to farm, nothing else. (G) EDIT: Changed from VG to G upon OlimarandLouie's reasoning.
Summoner - Leave lane, no farm at all, will feed if tries. (VG)
Assasin - Cannot farm at all, cannot gank during night without help from a ranged friend (VG)

And in teamfights, a good fbat is INVALUABLE. His lack of a need for l4 combined with his ability to stun someone and prevent them & their spell effects from hitting is INSANE. The only spell effects he cannot stop from attacking are archers. l1,l3,&l4.

I have marked all matchups that are posted with Very Good, Good, OK, Bad, or Very Bad. All of these are from the side of the Fbat.

Did i make some huge mistakes somewhere (if so please correct me.) Or is Fbat as i see he is, VERY UNBALANCED.

EDIT: Upon Oli reminding me, added Assasin.

I bet you're the type who'll headbutt a shield in a fight if it's getting in your way.

Your statement is like saying blocking ramps as terrain in melee is an imbalanced move. Well what do pros do when they're facing things they can't get through? Headbutt it? No! They get around it! This is where what SC really is: a strategy game.

Not a fighting game.

While Temple Siege has fighting elements in it it still is mostly a strategy game. You don't charge and challenge something that you know is going to bust you open and over from the bottom and inside. You find ways to tackle them! Firebat splash farming all your spawns? Go behind him. Go behind his gateway and see him try splash farming. Firebat stalling forever and ever? Micro him. Weaken him.

Even if you are countered it doesn't mean you're screwed. All you need to is get a grip, work hard, and find a way to get you back in the game. Being countered in TS is just like a 10rax terran facing a 4pool zerg. Doesn't mean you will dropdead immediately.

I have seen many zealots actually win against a firebat in the gateway scramble stages. With good strategy planning, teamwork and control, every thing is possible.

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