This. It's also why people hate 1.5, they don't want to have to learn how to handle the changes.

Probably, but until I get enough time I'll have to leave you guys hanging... if we're lucky we can get a few more bugs found and squished as well.

I didn't hear anyone complain about the connections that I added in 1.4M. After that, the terrain was stagnant primarily because nobody else was making it and sending it to me. ;o

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Re: Capture System Revamp Discussion.
Yes, you can argue that it's going to be "abused" and favor certain classes. But, let's be honest here, was the old system any different? Personally, I think it's dumb that a class like Mutant can run around stalling capture every 29 seconds for ten minutes until his team arrives. What entitles him and his team to the outpost if he's clearly incapable of getting someone off the beacon?
Another dumb thing is when a fast class can get away with running to heal and coming back to negate a capture. All the time the beacon holder put towards capturing that outpost is wasted and he has nothing to show for it... plus he's in a worse off position because now he has to fight a fully healed opponent that he already beat!

One complaint I have is that the Ling's l3 is very nerfed. 25+2 is very weak, and with the delay added in it was almost useless to me in a recent game. Maybe boost the base damage to compensate?

Warp gates are sometimes unplaceable, due to the placing trigger running before the movement of of area trigger. Replay included.

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That would be a very, very, bad thing. Please fix

I will agree with this statement 100%. I myself am not opposed to most change just ones I precieve as being bad. Regardless the only way to find out truly if a change is completely bad is to make that change.

What entitles the other team to that outpost? Just because they have a more useful L1 they should automatically gain that outpost?

The second part is mostly micro. The middle outpost is the only one that can be interupted by healing with a fast char mutant, assult, special ops, mech if he gets l2 before capped. If you want to avoid this put more twists and turns into the paths going to the center. Otherwise it is pretty fair because the idiot ran off the beacon trying to chase him in the first place for what he thinks is a kill.

To me your looking to take away advantages from the annoying classes and try to give them to the slower late game classes. I wouldn't think this is the right way to go about this at all. I think in the end it is only going to make those late game classes even weaker.

This has to be the part I'm most looking forward to but, not after the outpost becomes captured as stealing it makes it less important for the team capping the outposts to start. I would rather see this at the begining of the game to capture the outposts than once its been captured.

Granted it is good for trying to defend those who try to capture it but, what is the point of an outpost. Look back to m3 where sims were total crap. If you captured the outpost it did nothing for you.

It provides 2 extra spawn for the enemy to kill and when you need to heal you have to go all the way across the map back to heal again. If someone comes in solely for the purpose of killing that gyser you will never know they were there unless you happen to scout it with something. Or later found the gyser dead which of course loses you valuable minerals.

So.... Who did this version? Moose or unholy? Or both?

I don't know why people claim that change is unwanted. This can be true sometimes, but in terms of SC maps people mostly dislike when their strategies / heroes / strengths and weaknesses are changed in a way that forces them to adapt. If you add to a hero, hardly anyone complains. For example, when Kerrigan got that new spell that converted her orb into broodlings. everyone was like 'yeah that's cool go ahead.' No one is going to be like 'OH SHIT! DON'T GIVE MY HERO MORE SPELLS OR NEW STRATEGIES THAT I CAN CHOOSE TO USE OR CHOOSE NOT TO USE!" You gotta be careful on what kinds of changes you are doing.

For example, I use to play this map occasionally, and a spell that I liked was the one with the Firebat and he used Dweb to slow enemies. Then, I played a newer version only to discover that that move was gone. I for one, did not like the fact that one of my favorite moves was no longer available to me. Many people dislike this kind of change. However, positive change would be where yeah, you get a corsair like normal, but now it can do the Web OR you can do this other thing. I would be like "Sweet." because that is good change.

Basically, people dont want to adapt in a way that they think compromises their position as it was from an earlier standpoint.

However, once they see it for all its worth, they're fine with it.

Being on the beacon for a combined however many minutes.

Teleport point?
XP capture bonus?
Gradual team XP over time?

I did. Honestly, did you read the topic post? Or map information?

I recommend reducing archer's l3 from 45+5 damage to 40+4. It rapes hard if you can catch a hero alone.

L3: (45 + 5x) * 7 hits = 315 + 35x
Triple L1: (75 + 9x) * 2 hits * 3 casts = 450 + 54x

You trade off a mana to damage ratio for a better damage/time ratio, range, and better armor-piercing. It needs the high damage to remain competitve and worth getting.

lol


lol moose Idk where you were when thius was discussed but the gradual exp and cap bonus isnt enough to make up for the extra +2 spawn that comes from the gate. The later the game gets the more exp the team without the gate gets. This is why rine kicked butt in that version he would make you heal nullfying your capture bonus fairly quickly.

Teleport point is nice but that is nullfied since the players must walk all the way back to base to heal. Either way wether they feed next to their base or next to captures they need to walk about the same distance to get to feeding grounds so its only use is when you need to get to other side of map really quickly.


also new feedback earlier when talking about a fed bad placements of gysers i totally forgot about archers new spell l3.

The middle capture base bottom gyser and top i'm nearly positive can be hit by l3 but this is hard to test without actually being in game vs a gyser builder.

the top base gyser guarded by that 1 cannon can be hit by the guardian as ive actually seen it.


Also a devour spawn glitch occured in the attached game and both yellow and white had them. I'm not sure what caused it but i think the bat's spell may be some or all of the cause. It happens on top lane when the lightmage is near to fight the bat.

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IF you must continue to complain, atleast point out exactly and why the use of such a technique is imbalanced.

Archer has been able to kill Tops given geyser with L1 up until m8, and nobody complained because it was a given and could be defended against, like all you have been saying can.

Also if an archer wastes mana/time killing that he is more likely to be killed if ambushed.

Bases are useful for, hiding in, detection, in 1.5(/offtopicy)they're useful for healing and mana. Also useful for spawn rushing.

Outposts also give (for me at least) a psychological and tactic edge if I go to break into their base. If I go to break in the middle and we own the middle outpost, I know I've got waves of spawn coming behind me, distracting cannons and enemy spawn, and if I go to flee they'll distract enemy heroes while I run not to base, but more to the outpost because it's a haven.

On the other hand, if they own mid, when I go to break in I'm at the full mercy of cannons and spawn alike, and when I run I can't go right to base, I have to go around, and make it all the way back to base without protection unless an ally escorts me.

I can't help but stumble in on these topics, and can't help but to say thank you Moose for that.. Even though I don't play anymore.

Not saying ithe middle 2 gysers (or however u spell it) placements are imbalanced, I guess what i was pointing out is after all the redesign to protect the middle two gysers the push of the bridge up allows attacks by both archer and mech untouched by cannons. Mech was the original reason i pointed it out because he has l1 and can take this out while feeding.

The one i'm complaing about which i had no problems before is the realationship to bottom cannoned in gyser to the top cannoned in gyser. As in earlier posts. The top gyser is to the inside of the field of play the bottom isnt allowing the long ranged attacks. The top gyser also has only 1 cannon hitting you when you attack it and the bottom will have at least two.

This wasnt a problem before because you could run past the cannons and kill the stupid thing. Now you can't plain and simple.

again all this is outweighed by the fact that you captured the base and are now giving +2 extra spawn. They increase exp as time goes on. If your not getting the simming benefit the longer time goes on the worthless they become because you will be forced to travel further to heal whenever you need to and you will be missing out on more exp. This is one reason why M3 was fairly unbalanced when the sim rate was so low. They are an advantage not to have.

Trying to convince me the top has advantages against a good team is rediculous because they wont be trapped up there and they will kill that sim and you won't know about it unless you happen to have a scouting mine or some other scout losing valuable cash.

Ah, that makes sense.

@all the discussion about change. I personally like changes in the game; it makes it new and interesting. For me, it gets boring using the same strategy and hero and build over and over again; I like to try new things.

The amount of XP the outpost gives scales as well.

Thanks for the replay with the Devourer spawn bug. I watched the rest and now I can see what you mean with the top team's geyser and why it's imbalanced... I'll try to move it around.

Also, lol @ teal thinking Warrior's L3 random teleport was "put in". (ie. intentional) It's always been there since Unholy made the spell...


BTW, what do you guys think of cheaper but easier-to-kill cannons? Something like back to 2000 HP but for 30 minerals.

ADDITION: I just noticed the location on the middle beacon is half a tile off of it. Whoops!

Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Nov 1 2009, 9:01 pm by Mini Moose 2707.

To be fair killer, depending on what unit you are the +2 spawn may not be a big deal. Volt, Firebat, Light Mage, Dark Mage and to an extent Marine all use splash, so for them the +2 friendly spawn may not matter because their splash may kill it before the enemy does. I know I'm probably wrong, but just giving my opinion.

I do agree though, that obviously capturing outposts isn't always an advantage. If you've got a LM on your team and own all three outposts, he's in for a rough time.