Ah. I didn't know the exact numbers, so I was making a bad estimate. Sorry.

I know it tells you that - but if a player wants to see the exact numbers to get a general idea of how to balance properly between Vitality, Magic, and Strength, say, he can do it without having to go into sandbox mode and directly recording the numbers. You can just tag a x/x readout on the end of a few strings, and you'll be good to go.

In Theory, however my strings for the Stat point usage are tied into a generic trigger that covers all stat points of that type. So putting a fractional string into each possibility will tack on an additional ~33-35 triggers on to the map - which I'm trying to cut down on triggers because the map is big enough as it is.

Oh... yeah. /facepalm

Perhaps tag something onto all the mission objective displays?

Wait, nvm, that wouldn't work either. /facepalm /facepalm /think...

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 6 2010, 1:50 am by ImagoDeo.

I have a couple questions about the spells,
What does the Illusionist's level one spell do? and also what does the Samurai's offensive stance do?

offensive stance gives him a different spellset more offensively driven; illu l1 forces close enemies to ally you for a limited amount of time, puts other spells or atleast spell1+2 into cooldown so dont use it around more than 1 enemy unless youre sure you get both.

Clarify:

Offensive stance can stun nearby enemies if used while touching them. The stun added effect will be active as long as you have 1 enemy in your immediate area (computer counts) so remember that when using that. The spell is mainly for accessing your offensive spell set though.

Manipulate cancels out attacks from enemy heroes. You have to use it when the enemy hero OR THEIR SPELL UNITS are in your immediate area for it to work, and yeah it has a cooldown. [Illu cools down 4X faster during dusk.]

Brute Necro isn't op anymore. I think Norm nerfed him because of my builds. A Necro with power level (zealots and kai's curse) is much better than brute. Necro with elixer and toss ups is better than brute. Brutish Necro + Elixer Zealots and Kai's curse is only strong late game, or mid game with another team mate simming. It's still not that good at pking; quite good at base killing.

Psycho stunlock near base. ?? I'm not quite sure what you mean. If its DS spamming near base = op, then I agree. Even with the duds, a DS with mines and stun near base is rape. Only way to counter that is make a DS build timer (which I have already suggested). Still, the DS spam is way nerfed when compared to before. I still think DS is slightly op because of the unlimited spam.

CW has rape offense at day. For farm and pk in a group (2 lings per hero, enemy or ally). Its night spells are more suited for 1v1 pk, and the ling can usually get the pk kill during the night. What few people have done, is gone a melee ling build, and base rushed with all 3 heroes. It makes the L1 extremely powerful. Carnivore is essentially an anti spawner spell. Also, the CW is built to be stronger at night than day.

Spawnrushing: Its op. Done correctly, 6-8 hydra spawners can be built on the second day. It does require 3 people, all getting lucky. My record is 4 spawners during a 2v2 (1st dusk). {This can be countered, but it is dependent on the number of outposts captured, and the hero. ie: The CW with life can counter spawners, but only if his team has many sims. If the CW does go defense however, it will lack much attack ups.}
Best counter for spawners is Psycho, DT, CW, CoM, Sam, Alch, RM. In that order. Late game, the Ai could be considered... (gL3, vL3c, vL4b)

---

Please don't say I'm hating the rine so my hero is better. My main hero is the rine, and I think its op. my second is the RM (which I think is slightly op, although not by that much).

---

Speaking of vulture L4b, did you make the wraiths spawn at the 4 corners of the BC yet? It really needs to be done, to balance it. By the wraiths spawning at the bottom of the bc, it gives the advantage to the top team.


Does it order the enemy toward or away from you? If away, to where?

Although im sad nothing was said on civ scaling, i'll respond to what was said.

1. Makes sense...

2. Psycho stuns you near his base, gets dship, stuns again, etc. Essentially a no mana permastun.

3. I know CWs spells. Lunacy and red feast (although red feast less so) are slightly over situational to be of use, and i find lunacy dies so fast i dont even get to use it well if theres a hero behind the spawns...possibly make it so he can use l2 again to do something with his lings?..
Also at day anyone with high level spells is almost unapproachable, or anyone who can stun me unless i have like 5,6,7 vit upgs, and then ive got to run pretty quick. Also, the way the lings for l1 spawn the enemy needs to be standing still, which few are. Most fights go like this.

If Samurai, (Day)GTFO! He has a stun, a trap, and his l3 means your dead. (Night) You can win if he doesnt run away. The long time between recasts on l2 makes it hard, but not impossible. A good samurai will run away on eclipse, so that wont help. I dont know the damage output of l4, but it isnt much on moving targets last i checked, so dont depend on it. (L4, last i checked, spawned 3/4 waves of five mutas who spawned outwards, moved in to where target was on spawn, and then attacked. Does it still do this?)

If RM, (Day)staying in melee range means youll get smashed to bits with lings. They tend to hammer out more dps then yours, and trap you. Watch out for vessel or sair, they both kill you (does it tell you your disabled in updated vers?) You can kill her if your lucky and she doesnt have much hp, but her large amount makes it hard.(Night)she has little chance against you unless she has her sci near, in which case neither of you can do much, but you can gtfo. If she isnt near a base you can probably win, assuming she doesnt deter you.

If AI, (Day)and he has enough gas, your dead. Proper timing means youll barely get any attacks off on him, because hes invince for a second when he trans, and deals lots of damage to your low hp. Your l3 has no effect on his gas, so he doesnt have to move if you hit him with it, your werewolf cant hit through trans. Proper vult micro makes this worse.(Night) Vult micro owns you, trans still gives him invincibility and damage. Not much you can do here.

If Psycho, (Day)dship means your dead, most else you can survive except his final, which you should werewolf to avoid and then kill him after its gone. But he shouldnt be fighting without dship anyway. (Night) Dship means your dead, although you can kill it now, its still difficult against a good psycho. Much more killable now, if he doesnt run away. His high runspeed means he can live unless its from like half the map...which is unlikely. Also if his dship stuns you and mines you, gtfo.

If Illu, (Day)you have no chance killing the ult (no stun) unless hes got no gas or is looking away. His l1 owns you all the time no matter what, so his temp form is hard to approach. His scouts also do full damage to you, which is deadly.(Night) You can kill a bat ult, and invuln his spells. Pray he doesnt have timing/hp, and you can win.

If Alch, (Day)just pray he doesnt have alot of hp and armor (your damage scaling is horrible, and then you need to keep muta attacks up too..XS) Beatable, but also loseable, depends more on his spells that he has then anything.(Night) Not much changes here, he is a lot more killable, however he can kill you with timing and skill, so watch out.

If Necro (Day)kill him if he has no summons around. If he has summons and upgs, dont approach, you will probably die. (Night) You can approach if he has little summons, however if he has a lot you will take heavy damage and maybe die from him, so its risky as f.

If Ninja (Day) dont expect to kill him, he has too many escape mechanisms. He does high damage to you, and if he traps you your probably dead. (Night) You cant see him unless with eclipse, so unless your spamming it, dont approach. He can still get away with hotkeys to see his hp, however.

If CoM (Day) dont expect to kill him, he will get away much too easily. (Night) You partly cant see him, dont expect to kill him again.

Thats how i see CMs matchups mostly.

Spawnrushing = Mass upging spawn. You would suddenly have spawn dealing like 30 damage all over you, and you would be stuck at base while they rape everything, in theory.

MEMEME... I've seen people PK the shit out of everyone and get massive EXP just fine with CW, so maybe it's the user, not the character. I am starting to think that you don't even have enough experience with the other characters to know their weaknesses for when you fight against them using the wolf. That's a key issue and it's obvious now that you wrote out all those situations... For example one that really stood out to me is when you stated how CW's spells were situational, and then continued to describe the CW vs NEC matchup. Yes the spells are a bit situational, vs. a NEC w/ skeletons IS A PERFECT SITUATION because you can maintain lunacy with 4 lings by feeding off his skeletons and then surrounding him. Seeing as how each ling provided by lunacy increases your damage output by approximately one fold, you can have surrounded NEC with summons killed and ~5X your normal Damage output with fangs or a slow to finish him off after lunacy wears off. This is just one example where you're not using their weaknesses to your advantage AND IF YOU PLAYED OTHER CHARACTERS BESIDES THE WOLF MORE OFTEN, you would catch onto these things.

---

And what exactly is your issue with the EXP scaling requirements to get civs?

This is what really turns me off from these AoS/DotA type SC maps.. Even after many years WoW has been out, people will NOT stop complaining when the class they play gets pwned in PvP. It's a never ending viscious cycle Norm is going to be forced to fix until the day he gets fed up.

@Norm
Make it as balanced as you can then leave it at that. You will NEVER make EVERYONE think it's 100% balanced. Temple seige is very poorly balanced if you ask me and people play that religiously.

HEY! I'm a lot closer to balance after 3 versions than some people have come with year's worth of versions... My estimate is that I'll prolly get optimal balance by 1.05...(or 1.06 =/.)

Sorry, I meant to say "Anything to keep the players happy =)" .

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 6 2010, 7:46 pm by Norm.

I stated that my opinions, unless said to be believed fully, could and very well would be out there, and be wrong most of the time. There is no need to call me out, I find your game lacks by the by character types, and this makes it hard to pick up and play competitively (although this is more wrong then it looks) Also, because of my muted CD key, for every 10 hours of SC i play, im likely to get one game. I cannot host, else i would be a lot more in the know about this game.

@Kenshin: Just read your post again, and it makes less sense then it seemed. Although people will likely always complain, it is either out of place, and there is an easy and effective way to shut them up, (tell them what their doing wrong or whats wrong with their statement usually works) or its in place, and makes a point. On rare cases it can be neither, but that isn't extremely hard to deal with and is dealt with as it comes.

@Norm, no need to get aggressive...I'll draw up something here soon, because im not sure exactly what you said would work, but it very well may. (and probably does)

However, i said my thoughts would probably not be true, and you do believe that that is such. (likely with good reason)

All aggressiveness aside, i would like an explanation, please.

Now to address specific parts of your post because I'll feel off if i don't.

MEMEME... I've seen people PK the shit out of everyone and get massive EXP just fine with CW, so maybe it's the user, not the character. I am starting to think that you don't even have enough experience with the other characters to know their weaknesses for when you fight against them using the wolf.

This is likely for two reasons. 1. I have limited experience playing HS due to my inability to assure i can play it at any given time, and as such i barely get to play it.

2. I find a lot of your characters wonky and as such dont like to use them (Alch is slow....it annoys me. Illu i've tried...he was WAY TOO SLOW for me. AI i couldnt do much with, the mechanic was not one I liked at all, and i dont think anybody likes spawning by base with low gas, running out and dieng, which i think i did once. I found Necro odd the one time i played him, and although i could play him if i felt like it, i dont think i would have fun playing him so i dont, however i may try. I have never tried RM, this is due to little time being able to play HS.)

@Kenshin (sorry for the staggering of my post, im writing it as it comes up, and this is how it comes up) TS is balanced enough that people play it. It is also easier to pick up then HS (less wierd mechanics.) and Nevermind.

That's a key issue and it's obvious now that you wrote out all those situations... For example one that really stood out to me is when you stated how CW's spells were situational, and then continued to describe the CW vs NEC matchup. Yes the spells are a bit situational, vs. a NEC w/ skeletons IS A PERFECT SITUATION because you can maintain lunacy with 4 lings by feeding off his skeletons and then surrounding him.

Although i want to, i dont have the spare time to go check on Necros damage and how many rines he has by the time i can approach him without him fleeing to base. If each of his rines is dealing 20 damage (9 upgs, i believe) and i have 7 armor (broods) then i take 13 damage per hit. He will likely have 12 rines, as any good necro gets these quickly. If i have 700 hp (this is a fair amount of vit upgs) I take 13 x 12 = 156 damage per rine shot. - 13 DPS per rine killed. Assuming he cant summon any rines when i kill them, and he doesnt shoot me for some reason, i can last 5 shots from all of them, and about eight shots overall. If he micros, im dead. If he doesnt, i could see that working...but i would have LOW hp. The later this is the worse it gets, as he has more atck upgs, his goon is actually shooting, he may have zeals and ghosts, which do heavy damage and kill me very easily.

Also, a spell that can only be used vs one character 90% of the time is situational. The other 10% is spawn spammers.

This is just one example where you're not using their weaknesses to your advantage AND IF YOU PLAYED OTHER CHARACTERS BESIDES THE WOLF MORE OFTEN, you would catch onto these things.

This may be true. I cannot play HS nearly enough to know characters weaknesses, and this has been explained by me multiple times. Its not my fault, and its not your fault, its just a fact, unfortunate for me as it is.

don't rines get 4+1...? how would 9 upgrades= 20? o__O unless I'm mistaken and they get 4+2 even so if you cant adapt to whatever heroes you're fighting you aren't very good at the game its called getting more armor if hes massing rines and not going with anything else

I had thought 11 + 1, but thats obv wrong now.

If i mass armor i beat necro, until he gets ghosts/zeals, but i cant do anything.

MEME - CW is definitely not underpowered. Armor is cheaper than attack upgrades. If necro is massing up infantry attack, his zealots will be really weak.
Even if Necro doesn't upgrade infantry armor (which he probably would some if he had 9 attack upgrades) He would still need zealot armor to survive spawns (if the game is a zergling spawns or later) and damage upgrades if he wants to hurt you. That's three tech upgrades (maybe four) - With only two tech ups, you should shred through anything he has. Lunacy + armor > Rines // Fangs + attack > Zealots
Also, if he didn't have armor for Rines, he would have a hard time maintaining 12 marines.

Not to sound rude, but if you say that your lack of experience is due to the fact that you don't have enough time to play as often as you like, that doesn't give a good reason to post why you feel characters are imbalanced as if they should be changed.

The first part i understand.

The second, i thought i had stated that this was all my opinion. Not trying to be mean, hence ill state it again.

Anything i say without stating it that i believe it to be true is most likely wrong, but that doesnt mean you shouldnt read it. It just means that i dont expect most of what i say to be viable due to my lack of experience.

Skeletons have 4 base damage and receive +1 per up. Armor counters them easily so "Rines are killin me" should never be an excuse unless you are neglecting to at least semi-counter your opponents.

EDIT: And yeah I'll agree with a few posts up and I've even asked specifically "DO NOT COMMENT ON BALANCE IF YOU DO NOT HAVE SUFFICIENT EXPERIENCE WITH THE GAME TO PUT FORTH AN OBSERVATION THAT WILL LEAD TO IMPROVED BALANCE".

Why all the hate....

Those were just my thoughts...I dont want to be shoved out of participating in a forum due to simply the fact that i am unlucky. Is this to be so?

1) If you have a muted key, get another cd key. Ask someone, buy it for a measly $10, or downgrade and use the cd key changer (google it), or use a hax (yes its possible)(once again, google is your friend).
2) Just because you are muted, does not mean you get less play time. I have been through over 50 cd keys, legit and illegal. Go find random HS games and play. Many pubs host it (along with other games, such as TS m8). Many pubs have already passed your skill level simply because they play more games.
3) Yes, you do play CW a lot. Really, its the only hero you know how to play effectively. The illu may be slow, and the alch may be clumsy, but they are part of the game, and they are included in the game's balance. For example, the Alch can exp faster than the lurker early game, and pull a very effective oath rush, or hydra rush on the second day. The Illu gains a ridiculous advantage during dusk with .25 of his normal cooldown. Or even the storm may help him exp, and deny exp. Although the characters are not "fast" or "strong" or have "less useful spells", they all affect the game in a unique way, one which you cannot understand because of lack of experience.
4) We really, honestly, don't care about your opinion till you gain more experience. You have a few legit points, but they are very general. (ie: op spawns, and psycho DS) At this stage in the map's development, we need very specific things (ie: exactly what spawn is op, and how could it be fixed?), which cannot be given unless the player has much experience.

In no way am I trying to insult you, or your knowledge of StarCraft. Its just kinda confusing when you post and I think that you actually know what you are talking about, till I realize that the problem doesn't exist, or it was already fixed. (such as 9 up rines doing 20 damage).

Most of this makes complete sense.

1) I could do. I'd rather not, but i could.

2) Is half true (that being the second half) The only reason i believe i get less play time is because of the time that im on SC (i jump on every little bit) I check for games for 10-15 mins in the list, and if i find none i go LoL or tf2 or something. If i find something, i will keep playing. Recently (yesterday, day before) I have been finding nothing to play.

3) I never said they weren't parts of the game. I said they didnt fit my playstyle (and i dont think i said they didnt have effective spells...I feel most peoples spells are better then CWs overall, but this is me raging on an almost useless l2 at day, and shouldnt be taken seriously.)

4) I can pretty specifically explain most of the things i think are imba.

Psychos dship, when near base, can infi stun someone by stun - grab again, stun - grab again.

Spawnrushing is harder to explain. And as such i wont explain it because im not FULLY sure if its OP or not as of now.

The only real problem im having here is an inability to find pub games when i come on. This is probably me, but it still sucks, as im not willing to wait a half hour to play one HS game. XS.