Meme, you can always play by yourself in sandbox. What I did was to ignore the extra civs, and just play it normally. I sometimes do this to get the feel of any characters I haven't played. Sandbox lets you get a grasp of each character, which will be helpful in pub games. Heck, I will kindly host for you, as long as you notify me that you're on and you're willing to play a different character besides CW.

I'm not sure how this would help.

I know how most of the spells work, although i dont know their damage output, but this is only what i wanted to know for CW, and his l4 requires opponents.

So, all in all, its a good offer, but i can Sandbox for myself and being that i already know how each character works (to the extent of knowing what their spells do and their approx damage output) I dont find this relevant.

Hero Sanctuary 1.04 released - I'm doing everyone a service by posting it on the main thread, so the other thread can be deleted later. Norm is currently suspended and will be back on SEN on the 11th.

So here it is.

EDIT: Deleted attachment. Trying to save space.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Mar 15 2010, 5:32 pm by ImagoDeo.

What's the changes in the update?

And does anyone know how the samurai's armor works? It seems I'm just getting it sporratically, and I can't figure it out.

For Samurai armor, you need to gather wood, steel and stone. Different amounts will get you different armor. But, you have to start from the lowest to highest. Say, Samurai gets +1 wood. He will get his first armor. There's a list for all his armors a couple pages back, but basically, the max amount of resources you can get is 6 wood, 8 stone, and 10 steel, which will grant you the highest armor he could get. If you just aim for the max, you'll get all the other armors in the process.

He did some balancing work mostly. Not sure what the actual changelog is but I know he was looking to nerf some of the OP characters (Ninja, Psychopath, Rune Mage, etc...).

In addition, gathering resources takes a longer time as your armor increases.


Psycho has less life
CW's nL2 [cape] does 10+4 (instead of 12+5)
Ninja's L2b [sub] does -4 base damage
RM's L3b [impulse] nerfed
spawners cost more
high level spawn do less (don't think it affects CoM LL4 or RM L1/L4b)
Other stuff

Norm will not be changing the cost of psi storm.

No, but he changed the cost of Cloak, after he told me he wasn't going to change any of the costs for that kind of stuff... shame on you Norm-...

Delete this post please.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 13 2010, 1:26 am by Norm.

Okay, so yeah I was away from SEN for a while, but I'm back now. So, rumor has it that a lot of people are getting concerned about a change log for 1.04 and here's the deal: I'm not giving you one.

Why? Simple. People are going to see numbers they disagree with, nerfs they think are not needed, etc, and they are going to cry. This will distract us from obtaining the highest level of balance HS can reach. Now, I dunno about you guys, but I'd be pretty embarrassed if I made a PvP map and had it under production for over a year... over 18 months... over 9000 versions only to have it STILL be so far from balance. Now, I'm not saying that this happens, but it could and yeah, I'd imagine that somewhere out there there is a PvP map that has been around for a long time and fits that description. Rest assured, it isn't HS.

Hero Sanct is like the son that I never had that will one day be replaced by a human son that I take to metal concerts. (no offense to you, map). The point is that I kinda care about this map, and I want to take it to it's highest potential. I want the people who play HS (you guys) to have something to be proud of. Be all like "Yeah, well the game I play is balance and intense!" Sure, no one says that, but you might want to think it without having to doubt yourself. I'll try to accommodate.

Well, I know I told you I wasn't going to give you a change log - and I'm not REALLY giving you a complete one, but I will list what changed from 1.03.


THERE! I tried to omit exact numbers and comparisons to prevent the tears from people who got their favorite character nerfed. I'm sorry, but it had to be done. (There was no other way!!!) Now, I hope you guys can enjoy 1.04 for me =). By the looks of things, there will probably be a 1.05 somewhere down the road, but not any time soon. Thanks again to people who took care of my map's showcase while I was gone.

I think i figured out why your game felt odd to me, and of course i may be wrong, but i do believe this is at least somewhat on.

It has no yomi. I would expect you, wanting your game to be balanced and fun, to know what yomi is. However, for those that dont, I will explain.

Yomi is by definition the ability to read your opponents mind, yomi has layers, and in the best of games, three.

Yomi layer 1: Strong move

Yomi layer 2: Counter.

Yomi layer 3: Counter to the counter

There is no need for yomi layer 4 because at this point you can use the original move again.

The reason i feel there is no yomi in this game is choices that could be yomi (armor attack, grabbing life quickly or spells, alalalala) only happen during early game, due to my other problem, levelling, which nobody seemed to care about. (and i still feel is imbalanced)

and ingame (as in a fight) i don't feel there is any yomi becuase fights will normally be something like.

Approach (if you know hes there and your planning it) use move.

Reaction (if you havent used a move this is where the most yomi would happen, although its either pull your best(best as in move that best fits the situation) move or GTFO normally.)

Reaction is either expected and countered/outlasted, or unexpected and ran away from/died too. It normally repeats here.

The only reason i dont believe this is yomi is that it there is no reading, you know what your opponent is going to do as its whats best in that situation.

As CW at night, im going to either eclipse approach cape (times how much i have mana for it) and end with CoC, or im going to not use eclipse or CoC, or forgo eclipse or CoC. Now this is all easily readable. Do you suddenly go blind without any warning? Thats eclipse. Do I spam 52 dragoons that fill up the top of the screen with my colour (better players may not do this when spamming cape, however you dont really need to read a CoC, as it doesnt change much(now that it doesnt hit through summons), it allows me to run away and deal damage, but not much else in the way of countering except escaping players who have only short ranged moves or cant keep me in place.

In games like TS this is more but less apparent, in that spells come one by one, and many things are counterable. In the mutant vs warrior matchup (assuming 1v1, it gets more complex as more team fights occur, but i rarely see teamfights in HS and therefore cannot say anything. (this may be due to my lack of experience, idk.)

Warrior wins obviously in the first fight, but this first fight is shallow and probably being changed (night starting) so yeah. As soon as one of them gets l2, mutant wins with perfect spacing, or warrior wins with melee range cast. If they both have l2, yomi comes into play

Warrior l2'd me, i will l2. (Warrior gets away/dies, or somethinig else happens so he knows you have l2)

Warrior is going to l2 me if i approach, but i will l2 to counter him.

But waht if he walks away? or casts l1 while staying there and then walks away after i cast, only to come back and l2 me?

But if i dont l2, he will just do a ton of damage and can l2 me as i run away.

Although mainly the last statement is ruined by latency, it's viable.

This is yomi in AoS. I dont feel this in HS because spells dont seem to have that much of a downside most of the time. M&M ult has a downside, yes... I cant think of any other spells.

As for spells in TS that have a downside and therefore make them counterable... Sin l1,l4. Mutant l2,l3,l4. Warrior l2,l3,l4. DM l1,l2, l3&l4 have SMALL ones. Medic l1,l4. Assault l1,l2,l3,l4.

Need I go on?


DISCLAIMER (Cause norm likes to hate on me)
I'm not trying to be mean, I want your game to be balanced, Norm. I do believe most of this to be true, as it bases off of stuff i do have a grasping of. If anything is glaringly wrong, i am sorry. After thinking about this i cant find anything that wrong. If something doesnt make sense, i'll gladly explain.

Hrm.. I get what you're saying, and you do have a point. However, HS has a different kind of balance. Imagine a dodecahedronal prism (that's a prism with 12 sides + 2 bases). Each of those 12 points are a hero (there are 12 heroes, right?). The bottom base of the prism is day time, and the top is night time. Connect the dots and you have the balance. It doesn't have the 3 layer yomi; instead, it uses a chain of counters. Where the psycho overpowers the ling at day, the ling overpowers the rine at night. For others, there is a chain where 1>2>3>4>5>1.or some times, 1>2 and 3> 4>5>1, but 5>3>6, etc. There is no direct obvious counter for a 1v1 unit battle. Instead, its more of a team effort that changes depending on what heroes are being used (by self, allies, and enemies). If you chose the wrong units (say psycho, ai, and illu against CW, CoM, and the ninja) you're gonna get screwed. However, there are anti night units, such as the firebat (Portal) that can counter. The bat has a serious advantage over the ninja, com, psycho, cw (depends on the alch build).

In TS, 1 hero usually have an advantage over 1-2 other heroes. In HS, 1 hero has an advantage over 5-7 of the heroes. However, it is also at a disadvantage to 5-7 of the other heroes too.

I have got to go to bed (also @Norm, i contributed XD)

So im just gonna relay what this says to me.

Assuming this is true, it makes the game a game of matchup more then skill. This isnt balance, well it is but its balance in the sense the game is decided more at the hero choosing phase then anything else.

If it has to stay this way, i feel you may want to open up the builds a bit (this would require some game feature changing, but you dont have to do it, just a suggestion) and make it so a character can counter so and so by going blank build, but then loses to so and so and such. Instead of just (what it feels like currently) everyone going the 'best' build for their character, with very little ability to change around fundamentals of that build without sacrificing ability to win.

I also feel maybe CW should have some use for his l2 outside of just lings, something like where if he casts while its up they act like fangs and tele to nearest hero or something, so that its situational but can be used. However this is random and im tired.

I'm sorry man, but you are really starting to irritate me and throwing off the purpose of this thread. I can't even count how many times I've requested or implied that I don't want detrimental balance observations stated here. For some reason - it continues.

Let me explain to you how worthless your post was. First of all, you quote my previous post that didn't even pertain to ANYTHING you talk about. I could live with that, but then you cross the line. This 3 layer basic Yomi stuff does not belong in HS. HS is much too complex strategy wise to apply so few layers to it.

You seem to forget one key thing: HS is an RPG and therefore has RPG properties. One thing you're going to have to understand is the concept of diminishing returns on EXP. A lot of people who haven't had a lot of experience with PvP RPG's such as (Diablo 2) are thrown off by this system, so i'll try to explain it. If you grind from 0EXP, to 54EXP, you gain like what? 4-5 stat points? If you grind from 2000EXP to 2054EXP, you gain what? Nothing. The game is designed to flow from different game periods naturally as the EXP levels of players change. For example, if you reach 250EXP during mist spawns: you have a decision. Is it better to continue to train for 1EXP each? or is my time better spent PvPing, Denying EXP, Assaulting Base, assisting allies, etc. As the game transitions from early game (base capturing period) to mid game (end of mist, duration of fangs) to late game (spirit spawns and later) experienced players run these questions through their minds as they decide how to optimize their time to come out victorious in the end.

An Example: I am Samurai and one of my abilities is to craft armor from the resource patches. It is mist spawn and I have ~220exp. It'd be stupid to continue to train on the mist because at this point, diminishing returns on EXP provide me with an incentive to do other things such as... collecting armor. Such as... harassing the serpent on the other team because he is only at 100EXP, and grinding is more important to him right now. Such as using my auras on allies to help them catch up with me in terms of EXP.

This game is meant to be played as a mini-RPG. You select your character and your quest is to become victorious over the enemy team. You must consider which build you want to use, which characters you are going to try to confront or avoid, when you plan on breaking into enemy base, how you are going to synergize with your allies. If I am playing Serpent, there are 3 major builds that are effective: #1 is Offensive, where my allies supply me with shrine income and I up power and magic to max and unload l3 + l4 (unburrowed) on my opponents and their base for ultimate rape. #2 is revolved around l2 and energy gain. Buying plague and +max energy and using l2 (at various power levels) can provide me with near endless plagues and stuns once my magic stat peaks. This is extremely effective especially against enemy characters that have spells they can use to evade Dragon breath, it suddenly becomes less useful. Finally, #3 build is support, where I play the assist in PvP for a powerhouse ally. Infrared --> Go to their location and open with a stun --> get close and have your ally move in for the kill. Close and Dragon Crest + Spirit crusher cripples anyone in your path. Leaving them eZPK for your team. I can choose to go after any of these builds from the start, or even transition into them or even fill more than one of them if I gain a high enough level. This is my character.

Each and every character has choices to make. Each and every character must analyze how they are going to reach their ultimate goal of victory. This is the strategy. This is what makes the game fun. Effective builds get laughed at in certain situations, and own entire games other times. There is no "Best build for any given circumstance" for any given character. This is Balance.

You gave me some horrible comparison about god knows what kind of crappy 1v1 situation. 1v1's in HS aren't a 3-step thing. 1v1's in HS last anywhere from 2seconds to over a minute (and more in extreme cases). The characters are specifically designed to ALWAYS have a way to win. Whether or not you can think and react fast enough to identify it, ANY team can win against ANY enemy team if you play it right. ANY character is capable of winning even if it's 3v1 (Well, you'd have to be really good) BUT I promised you guys from the start that I would make any shitty characters that I dunno, are completely useless for 1v1? are completely useless for killing bases? We don't have that in HS. The characters are more complex than that.

And then we get to balance. It's not a simple thing to reach. Reload was on the right track about his dodecahedron prism. However, it goes beyond that. You can't just take a 1v1 match up for balance. You also have to take into account every single variable that the game provides - and YES there are a lot of them. PvP strength, Assist capabilities, Rate of EXP gain, Day/Night strengths or weaknesses, Synergy with allies, Base destruction capability, Benefit from artifacts, etc.

Then there is balance beyond the character design. This is the balance of existence and the concept of gaining from investment. For example the most basic and common occurrence of this in HS is investment of time to gain Stat Points. This goes back to what I said earlier - where the player must learn when he gets the best pay off for his investment. When he must decide on how he spends his time. This is what separates noobs from experienced players. Anyone can grind, anyone can spam their strongest spells, but the player(team) who makes the best choices and uses their character(s) most efficiently will always win.

No offense please, but you DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH EXPERIENCE AND UNDERSTANDING OF HOW THE GAME WORKS TO MAKE ANY COMMENTS ON THE BALANCE. You might as well just right "spam" 1000 times and click the post button. Honestly. You are handling this game like it's some kind of simple set up. You are giving analysis in a way that you are ignoring the innovations that HS brings to the genre. I don't want to flame you or anything but - You are making the common mistake of taking the same approach to HS as you would with I dunno, it's biggest competition: Temple Siege. There is a reason why people who play that game a lot get owned horribly their first time playing HS: The games are played in totally different ways. Until you at LEAST realize this, I would prefer if you didn't bother making any posts in this topic.

Thanks you.

Haha. Most of this is true, and its more then likely my fault that i dont know the mechanics (as well as i should, i already have limitations that prevent me from getting as good as some of you as of now...mostly) due to my playing of LoL, which is admittedly better probably because of the engine.

Thats also the main reason i compare it to temple siege. I could say your game is horrible because spells have no cooldown and such, and this is nothing like an RPG in that aspect, (this is something the engine allows, but im being nice here, so idc) however I dont knowing that you are limited by the (not very great) sc engine and its limitations. I could also say its bad because your character doesnt act like an rpg in that he upgrades only one aspect per level. In 100% of good noted rpg or rpg style games, characteres upg their hp mana and other such attributes every level, per level. I dont doubt this game will eventually become very close to balanced, as full balance is difficult to have with such a limited engine and character diversity.

I may continue to play some sc, possibly be more active on it, assuming i can find games...and if i do ill play any HS games i find (i dont find it hosted as often as you guys say, nearly.)

I have never seen that long of a battle, but i'll believe you on that one.

You however, cannot doubt yomi and say its nothing.


This 3 layer basic Yomi stuff does not belong in HS. HS is much too complex strategy wise to apply so few layers to it.


No. There is so few layers because yomi is one part of a game (and it's a big part) and because, if you read, at the fourth layer it repeats. If i counter your counter to my counter to your strong move, you dont need a counter, you can just do your strong move again, assuming the game isnt odd in that the first counter also counters the original strong move.

Don't be so arrogant as to negate yomi. Your game is good, as good as it could be at this point limited by the SC engine, however yomi will continue to be a big part almost any fight in almost any game, and yomi will, in a game with any depth, have three layers.

I know diminishing returns, these are logical and make sense. I've got to go here soon, but i may add more/reply to you after school. As for what i was saying, diminishing returns work well, however when it turns from one level every 20 seconds to one level every two minuites, with nothing else lengthening (unless you both went some really defensive build or something...but im assuming you guys are playing well and arent both banking on stalling out your opponents.) because as hp gets higher, attack gets higher, spells get higher, armor gets higher, etc. A CW vs samurai lasts about the same time when both have l2 as when both have l4, night or day (although day i doubt CW wins, thats not viable XD.)

In other high level games, (yeah ima refrence LoL/DotA as this is likely doable in HS) as the game time goes on battles last longer. So your giving up more exp and about the same % of a level to fight someone at lv 1 then you are at lv 18. (however sometimes you dont give up exp, as in these games you get exp for being near the kill, however this i dont believe is doable within the limits of the SC engine, and this sucks)

Most of this makes sense, and maybe what i said above isnt viable.

What i know is viable is what i said about yomi, the engine, and my playing sc.

Next time i say anything about balance, i'll try and have experience....but there are only so many things the SC engine can do, dont forget that.

You know what I don't get? How you guys can sit there and write a whole essay. I don't think I could ever do that... which might explain why I'm failing English...

Ontopic question: Might I ask what unit models are NOT currently being used for any reason whatsoever in this game?

Unit models? What's a unit model?

Oops. Thought I backspaced and got rid of the word "models"

Just... unused units in this map, what are they, if there are any?

I would guess that you can count them on the fingers of one hand. Most of the ones not actually physically used in-game are probably used for their death counts.

Yggdrasil is unused.**
Shuttle is unused.
Carrier is unused.
Arbiter is unused.
Interceptor is unused.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Edit: **Yggdrasil is actually used for a Death Counter for players 1-6.