I've been reading up on SC2 some more. I think my biggest problem right now is that they're making this into a "rock paper scissors" game it almost appears. They heavily emphasize the fact that everything is vulnerable to something, which is not really the SC we all know and love. I mean, its more of a matter of how you use the units not what kind they are. I don't see that much happening in SC2. It's too early to say still. I just hope they don't make it into a game of rock paper scissors with zerglings and spaceships.

I've been reading up on SC2 some more. I think my biggest problem right now is that they're making this into a "rock paper scissors" game it almost appears.

They heavily emphasize the fact that everything is vulnerable to something, which is not really the SC we all know and love. I mean, its more of a matter of how you use the units not what kind they are. I don't see that much happening in SC2.

It's too early to say still. I just hope they don't make it into a game of rock paper scissors with zerglings and spaceships.

I agree. It seemed that the balance in the old starcraft had a lot to do with certain types of units having weaknesses and strengths against other types, rather than being unit by unit. For instance, units with low hp were generally weak against units with high attack power. Mechanical units were susceptible to lockdown, being unable to heal, etc. Then there were the units that were ground only, air only, or attacked both air and ground. Take a hydralisk for instance. It's a very flexible unit, but it can be owned by a unit with high attack power and/or range (such as BCs, tanks, guardians, etc.) or zapped with irradiate or maelstrom. But so could every other unit that had similar power to the hydralisk. There was no unit that was specifically anti-hydralisk. Unit to unit weaknesses are teh lame.

I agree.

It seemed that the balance in the old starcraft had a lot to do with certain types of units having weaknesses and strengths against other types, rather than being unit by unit. For instance, units with low hp were generally weak against units with high attack power. Mechanical units were susceptible to lockdown, being unable to heal, etc. Then there were the units that were ground only, air only, or attacked both air and ground.

Take a hydralisk for instance. It's a very flexible unit, but it can be owned by a unit with high attack power and/or range (such as BCs, tanks, guardians, etc.) or zapped with irradiate or maelstrom. But so could every other unit that had similar power to the hydralisk. There was no unit that was specifically anti-hydralisk.

Unit to unit weaknesses are teh lame.

[quote=Doodan]Unit to unit weaknesses are teh lame.[/quote] Agree, it allows less micro-management and more strategy, which SC2 is aiming at, in my opinion.

Quote from Doodan

Unit to unit weaknesses are teh lame.

Agree, it allows less micro-management and more strategy, which SC2 is aiming at, in my opinion.

It's beginning to turn into every other 3rd person strategy game, I sure hope they fix it before the end, or I'm going to cry.

It's beginning to turn into every other 3rd person strategy game, I sure hope they fix it before the end, or I'm going to cry.

[quote=JaFF][quote=Doodan]Unit to unit weaknesses are teh lame.[/quote] Agree, it allows less micro-management and more strategy, which SC2 is aiming at, in my opinion.[/quote] I wouldn't call that "strategy". It just depends on your scouting. You opponent will always try to build units that counter yours, and you will do the same. Eventually it will either come down to pwning 2-unit-combos or a mixture of pretty much everything, depending on the units that Blizz gives to us. I really don't see any strategy in this. Strategy imo is about when to expand, mass, attack, defend, or tech, but not about what units to mass since it is clear that you will always try to build effective units, and with rock-paper-scissors, your choices of effective units are limited.

Quote from JaFF

Quote from Doodan

Unit to unit weaknesses are teh lame.

Agree, it allows less micro-management and more strategy, which SC2 is aiming at, in my opinion.

I wouldn't call that "strategy". It just depends on your scouting. You opponent will always try to build units that counter yours, and you will do the same. Eventually it will either come down to pwning 2-unit-combos or a mixture of pretty much everything, depending on the units that Blizz gives to us. I really don't see any strategy in this.
Strategy imo is about when to expand, mass, attack, defend, or tech, but not about what units to mass since it is clear that you will always try to build effective units, and with rock-paper-scissors, your choices of effective units are limited.

Edit: Nevermind.

Edit: Nevermind.

SC was orrigianlly a RPS game Terrans > Zerg Zerg > Toss--------------For the Majority At Least Toss > Terran Now there will be sorta MORE strategy because Collosus = Walking BC, but is targeted as AIR and GROUND, now units with 2 different attacks (1vair, 1vground) they can use those attacks simultaniously, so collosus is mad damnage, but easy to kill New Dragoon (forgot name) Immortal right? = They can deal with artillery as they have "Power Sheilds", but a pathetic to zerglings Protoss Combo: Zealots rush to defend immortals from lings, Immortals Rape Artillery, Collusi Rape Base (and no air yet...) Terran Combo: Marines Shoot From Range, Firebats/Reapers Take Care Income Swarms and Medics make them last long (tank push too?) Zerg Combo: ??? Units: ??? Need more info

SC was orrigianlly a RPS game

Terrans > Zerg
Zerg > Toss--------------For the Majority At Least
Toss > Terran

Now there will be sorta MORE strategy because

Collosus = Walking BC, but is targeted as AIR and GROUND, now units with 2 different attacks (1vair, 1vground) they can use those attacks simultaniously, so collosus is mad damnage, but easy to kill
New Dragoon (forgot name) Immortal right? = They can deal with artillery as they have "Power Sheilds", but a pathetic to zerglings

Protoss Combo: Zealots rush to defend immortals from lings, Immortals Rape Artillery, Collusi Rape Base (and no air yet...)

Terran Combo: Marines Shoot From Range, Firebats/Reapers Take Care Income Swarms and Medics make them last long (tank push too?)

Zerg Combo: ??? Units: ??? Need more info

ya, i agree with the OP they're putting in wayyy too many hard counters.

ya, i agree with the OP

they're putting in wayyy too many hard counters.

[quote=Vi3t-X]SC was orrigianlly a RPS game Terrans > Zerg Zerg > Toss Toss > Terran [/quote] Lolnourwrong. There are plenty of Times T > P > Z > T If you simply blame your race for losses in a certain MU, it's because youre a noob at that MU.

Quote from Vi3t-X

SC was orrigianlly a RPS game
Terrans > Zerg
Zerg > Toss
Toss > Terran

Lolnourwrong.

There are plenty of Times T > P > Z > T

If you simply blame your race for losses in a certain MU, it's because youre a noob at that MU.

Blizzard have stated the unit weakness' and strengths were exaggerated for the purposes of showing them off and the way that they presented the units in the trailer didn't really help either. Its hard to make judgments until we actually see a game in progress, and theres also the fact that people will probably think up new ways of using different units, its early days, thanks can and probably will change massively.

Blizzard have stated the unit weakness' and strengths were exaggerated for the purposes of showing them off and the way that they presented the units in the trailer didn't really help either.

Its hard to make judgments until we actually see a game in progress, and theres also the fact that people will probably think up new ways of using different units, its early days, thanks can and probably will change massively.

Seems like every new unit has a hard counter. Plus, there's a lot more crowd control to cut down on masses. Means the game won't be as much about basic units.

Seems like every new unit has a hard counter. Plus, there's a lot more crowd control to cut down on masses. Means the game won't be as much about basic units.

im sure that the original starcraft looked the same as this one-omg, everyunit has a hard counter! those goons suck against zerglings omfg! ...and then someone started doing that range-dragoon micro, and POOF! no more hard counter. its all about the age of the game, the creativity of the players, and the flexibility of the game environment, which so far... looks pretty damn 'flexible.'

im sure that the original starcraft looked the same as this one-omg, everyunit has a hard counter! those goons suck against zerglings omfg! ...and then someone started doing that range-dragoon micro, and POOF! no more hard counter. its all about the age of the game, the creativity of the players, and the flexibility of the game environment, which so far... looks pretty damn 'flexible.'

[quote=R.I.S.K]im sure that the original starcraft looked the same as this one-omg, everyunit has a hard counter! those goons suck against zerglings omfg! ...and then someone started doing that range-dragoon micro, and POOF! no more hard counter. its all about the age of the game, the creativity of the players, and the flexibility of the game environment, which so far... looks pretty damn 'flexible.'[/quote] Not really, they released a lot of patches to balance overpowered units. There are some obvious hard counters in Starcraft, but it looks like theres going to be way more in Starcraft II.

Quote from R.I.S.K

im sure that the original starcraft looked the same as this one-omg, everyunit has a hard counter! those goons suck against zerglings omfg! ...and then someone started doing that range-dragoon micro, and POOF! no more hard counter. its all about the age of the game, the creativity of the players, and the flexibility of the game environment, which so far... looks pretty damn 'flexible.'

Not really, they released a lot of patches to balance overpowered units. There are some obvious hard counters in Starcraft, but it looks like theres going to be way more in Starcraft II.

then i bet a lot of patches are released to balance overpowered units. remember that NOTHING in a video game is solid. anything can be changed anytime the company wants to release a new patch.

then i bet a lot of patches are released to balance overpowered units. remember that NOTHING in a video game is solid. anything can be changed anytime the company wants to release a new patch.

Yeah the rock paper scissors thing would really suck. It'll be like age of empires 2... which pikemen only do 2 damage but when attacking horses do like 20. It'll be really messed up.

Yeah the rock paper scissors thing would really suck. It'll be like age of empires 2... which pikemen only do 2 damage but when attacking horses do like 20. It'll be really messed up.

Look, guys. The units in the trailers were presented as such to emphasize specific uses. Obviously balancing will occur. Furthermore, Starcraft has tons of RPS style matches. firebat > ling > goons tanks > all med to large ground units lings and zealots > tanks lings > goliath > air The list goes on and on. Give me any unit and I'll give you a counter. However, this is all lost once you use MORE THAN ONE UNIT AT A TIME. The trailers all show 1v1 units. That's not the way games go. People build multiple units to balance weaknesses. Terrain changes factored in with air to ground support change up all the balances. Look, the trailers showed simplified unit combat. If you've ever played Starcraft, you know things are infinitely(<- exaggeration) more complex than that. My point is: Quit your whining, Blizzard's not stupid.

Look, guys. The units in the trailers were presented as such to emphasize specific uses. Obviously balancing will occur.
Furthermore, Starcraft has tons of RPS style matches.
firebat > ling > goons
tanks > all med to large ground units
lings and zealots > tanks
lings > goliath > air
The list goes on and on. Give me any unit and I'll give you a counter. However, this is all lost once you use MORE THAN ONE UNIT AT A TIME.

The trailers all show 1v1 units. That's not the way games go. People build multiple units to balance weaknesses. Terrain changes factored in with air to ground support change up all the balances.

Look, the trailers showed simplified unit combat. If you've ever played Starcraft, you know things are infinitely(<- exaggeration) more complex than that.

My point is: Quit your whining, Blizzard's not stupid.

[quote=Screwed]Yeah the rock paper scissors thing would really suck. It'll be like age of empires 2... which pikemen only do 2 damage but when attacking horses do like 20. It'll be really messed up.[/quote] AoE2? Choose Huns, mass horseback archers, pwn your enemies. If you can't choose huns, do the same but don't pwn that hard. If your enemy does the same - do it better. Ok, if you can, use huns + spaniards, because of the trading bonus. Hell, I trashed castles with my horsebacks. En masse.

Quote from Screwed

Yeah the rock paper scissors thing would really suck. It'll be like age of empires 2... which pikemen only do 2 damage but when attacking horses do like 20. It'll be really messed up.

AoE2? Choose Huns, mass horseback archers, pwn your enemies. If you can't choose huns, do the same but don't pwn that hard.
If your enemy does the same - do it better.

Ok, if you can, use huns + spaniards, because of the trading bonus. Hell, I trashed castles with my horsebacks. En masse.

I was wrong? In Truth the majority of it is true. Many people I play with lose that way And no I dont suck Im mainly protoss but I can play all of them. ZvP Zergling rush (your dead) PvT Protoss units over power Terrans (1 zealot = 2-3 marines) TvZ Tanks, Gols and Rines will shred a zerg base

I was wrong?

In Truth the majority of it is true. Many people I play with lose that way

And no I dont suck Im mainly protoss but I can play all of them.


ZvP

Zergling rush (your dead)

PvT

Protoss units over power Terrans (1 zealot = 2-3 marines)

TvZ

Tanks, Gols and Rines will shred a zerg base

[QUOTE]Tanks, Gols and Rines[/QUOTE] lurkers/lings/mutas (or guards) ftw! It all comes down to the players skill really in StarCraft. Just becuase you have a bunch of firebats doesn't mean a swarm of lings can't kill you.

Quote

Tanks, Gols and Rines

lurkers/lings/mutas (or guards) ftw!
It all comes down to the players skill really in StarCraft. Just becuase you have a bunch of firebats doesn't mean a swarm of lings can't kill you.

actually, in starcraft, it comes down to the unit with the best average of DPS, HP, PRODUCTION TIME, and VERSATILITY (can it attack both air and ground? how fast is it? what abilities does it have?) the only problem is, blizzard, being so good at balancing, basically made every unit hindered in at least one of those categories, thus making it impossible to tell which unit is the best unit in the game. also, its nigh impossible to average those things, because they are so unrelated to each other. its like trying to average out bananas and computer resolutions... it just doesn't work. skill does play a major role in starcraft, but the above is slightly more important than skill, assuming all the players know the basic-intermediate concepts and methods of the game.

actually, in starcraft, it comes down to the unit with the best average of DPS, HP, PRODUCTION TIME, and VERSATILITY (can it attack both air and ground? how fast is it? what abilities does it have?) the only problem is, blizzard, being so good at balancing, basically made every unit hindered in at least one of those categories, thus making it impossible to tell which unit is the best unit in the game. also, its nigh impossible to average those things, because they are so unrelated to each other. its like trying to average out bananas and computer resolutions... it just doesn't work.

skill does play a major role in starcraft, but the above is slightly more important than skill, assuming all the players know the basic-intermediate concepts and methods of the game.