[quote=Vi3t-X]I was wrong? In Truth the majority of it is true. Many people I play with lose that way And no I dont suck Im mainly protoss but I can play all of them. ZvP Zergling rush (your dead) PvT Protoss units over power Terrans (1 zealot = 2-3 marines) TvZ Tanks, Gols and Rines will shred a zerg base[/quote] You sir are a noob. Those are just the units, you're excluding the player in the equation. The game doesn't only depend on the race, but how the player uses/micros/macros his units. I'm pretty sure Blizz wil balance it out in future patches, too bad the patches will seriously own the modding community :/ .

Quote from Vi3t-X

I was wrong?

In Truth the majority of it is true. Many people I play with lose that way

And no I dont suck Im mainly protoss but I can play all of them.


ZvP

Zergling rush (your dead)

PvT

Protoss units over power Terrans (1 zealot = 2-3 marines)

TvZ

Tanks, Gols and Rines will shred a zerg base

You sir are a noob. Those are just the units, you're excluding the player in the equation. The game doesn't only depend on the race, but how the player uses/micros/macros his units.

I'm pretty sure Blizz wil balance it out in future patches, too bad the patches will seriously own the modding community :/ .

i would like to point out that unit-to-unit battles rarely happen in actual starcraft. its all about unit combos. also, the unit-to-unit examples in the videos were exaggerated simply to show off the units.

i would like to point out that unit-to-unit battles rarely happen in actual starcraft. its all about unit combos. also, the unit-to-unit examples in the videos were exaggerated simply to show off the units.

If SC2 seems to be like a rock paper scissors style type of game, then so does our current starcraft game. Each unit for each race has its own strengths and weaknesses; it's just that we probably don't realize it since this game is probably in our blood.

If SC2 seems to be like a rock paper scissors style type of game, then so does our current starcraft game. Each unit for each race has its own strengths and weaknesses; it's just that we probably don't realize it since this game is probably in our blood.

[quote=FlyingHat][quote=Vi3t-X]I was wrong? In Truth the majority of it is true. Many people I play with lose that way And no I dont suck Im mainly protoss but I can play all of them. ZvP Zergling rush (your dead) PvT Protoss units over power Terrans (1 zealot = 2-3 marines) TvZ Tanks, Gols and Rines will shred a zerg base[/quote] You sir are a noob. Those are just the units, you're excluding the player in the equation. The game doesn't only depend on the race, but how the player uses/micros/macros his units. I'm pretty sure Blizz wil balance it out in future patches, too bad the patches will seriously own the modding community :/ .[/quote] Just to clarify on your point, race does not matter at all in a game. If you're a noob, then you'll find as Protoss you are very vulnerable to a rush. With equal skill, though, it doesn't matter at all. A simple ling rush will never beat a skilled Protoss player. In fact, if both players are experienced, the Prtoss player is more likely to win if the Zerg player does a relentless rush. Also, there is no best unit in Starcraft. Ever. The only possible exception is the Carrier, maybe. However, the sheer cost of Carriers means getting them is unlikely. Furthermore, they can still be countered with scourges or Hydralisks and Dark Swarm. I have faith that Blizzard will succeed in bringing us a Starcraft 2 that is >= Starcraft in every way.

Quote from FlyingHat

Quote from Vi3t-X

I was wrong?

In Truth the majority of it is true. Many people I play with lose that way

And no I dont suck Im mainly protoss but I can play all of them.


ZvP

Zergling rush (your dead)

PvT

Protoss units over power Terrans (1 zealot = 2-3 marines)

TvZ

Tanks, Gols and Rines will shred a zerg base

You sir are a noob. Those are just the units, you're excluding the player in the equation. The game doesn't only depend on the race, but how the player uses/micros/macros his units.

I'm pretty sure Blizz wil balance it out in future patches, too bad the patches will seriously own the modding community :/ .

Just to clarify on your point, race does not matter at all in a game. If you're a noob, then you'll find as Protoss you are very vulnerable to a rush. With equal skill, though, it doesn't matter at all. A simple ling rush will never beat a skilled Protoss player. In fact, if both players are experienced, the Prtoss player is more likely to win if the Zerg player does a relentless rush.

Also, there is no best unit in Starcraft. Ever. The only possible exception is the Carrier, maybe. However, the sheer cost of Carriers means getting them is unlikely. Furthermore, they can still be countered with scourges or Hydralisks and Dark Swarm.

I have faith that Blizzard will succeed in bringing us a Starcraft 2 that is >= Starcraft in every way.

I really don't think that StarCraft 2 is going to be a unit weakness vs. unit weakness kind of thing. I got this a lot while talking to my friends in school about this and I gave them this example: In the Terran Demo that we all should have seen, the first example of what is being debated here is the Battlecruisers coming to the base and killing the Marines. This introduces the Vikings which they say could be a great example to counter the Battlecruisers, but couldn't a fleet of Pheonixes, or any other large amounts of units just like what was needed to be done in StarCraft 1. Another example I was asked about was the Banshee. If you look at the description, it says it is a tactical air-to-ground fighter. This doesn't mean that it is only going to work on mobs like it does in the Demo. I think all of the units are doing to be pretty balanced just like they are now for the most part, but I would think that Blizzard with such a good rep would know what they're doing on this one.

I really don't think that StarCraft 2 is going to be a unit weakness vs. unit weakness kind of thing. I got this a lot while talking to my friends in school about this and I gave them this example: In the Terran Demo that we all should have seen, the first example of what is being debated here is the Battlecruisers coming to the base and killing the Marines. This introduces the Vikings which they say could be a great example to counter the Battlecruisers, but couldn't a fleet of Pheonixes, or any other large amounts of units just like what was needed to be done in StarCraft 1. Another example I was asked about was the Banshee. If you look at the description, it says it is a tactical air-to-ground fighter. This doesn't mean that it is only going to work on mobs like it does in the Demo. I think all of the units are doing to be pretty balanced just like they are now for the most part, but I would think that Blizzard with such a good rep would know what they're doing on this one.

The ultimate formulas: Good Player < Better Player < Best Player Good Player (Terran) < Better Player (Zerg) < Best Player (Protoss) Good Player (Zerg) < Better Player (Terran) < Best Player (Protoss) Good Player (Protoss) < Better Player (Zerg) < Best Player (Terran) Good Player (Zerg) < Better Player (Protoss) < Best Player (Terran) Good Player (Terran) < Better Player (Protoss) < Best Player (Zerg) Good Player (Protoss) < Better Player (Terran) < Best Player (Zerg) Good Player (Terran) < Better Player (Terran) < Best Player (Terran) Good Player (Zerg) < Better Player (Zerg) < Best Player (Zerg) Good Player (Zerg) < Better Player (Zerg) < Best Player (Zerg) No matter what race, it always works.

The ultimate formulas:

Good Player < Better Player < Best Player
Good Player (Terran) < Better Player (Zerg) < Best Player (Protoss)
Good Player (Zerg) < Better Player (Terran) < Best Player (Protoss)
Good Player (Protoss) < Better Player (Zerg) < Best Player (Terran)
Good Player (Zerg) < Better Player (Protoss) < Best Player (Terran)
Good Player (Terran) < Better Player (Protoss) < Best Player (Zerg)
Good Player (Protoss) < Better Player (Terran) < Best Player (Zerg)
Good Player (Terran) < Better Player (Terran) < Best Player (Terran)
Good Player (Zerg) < Better Player (Zerg) < Best Player (Zerg)
Good Player (Zerg) < Better Player (Zerg) < Best Player (Zerg)

No matter what race, it always works.

Exactly, it takes the actual player and his/her skill.

Exactly, it takes the actual player and his/her skill.

However, in general if you watch the WGTour matches or whatnot, generally Terran beats Zerg, Zerg beats Protoss, and Protoss beats Terran.

However, in general if you watch the WGTour matches or whatnot, generally Terran beats Zerg, Zerg beats Protoss, and Protoss beats Terran.

What do you mean by that? Ussually in a lot of the matches I see like that, it is always a worker rush kind of thing and they don't build anything but peons...

What do you mean by that? Ussually in a lot of the matches I see like that, it is always a worker rush kind of thing and they don't build anything but peons...

Well at least they aren't promoting units that are not good against anything/ good against everything...

Well at least they aren't promoting units that are not good against anything/ good against everything...

[quote=Yoshi da Sniper]I've been reading up on SC2 some more. I think my biggest problem right now is that they're making this into a "rock paper scissors" game it almost appears. They heavily emphasize the fact that everything is vulnerable to something, which is not really the SC we all know and love. I mean, its more of a matter of how you use the units not what kind they are. I don't see that much happening in SC2. It's too early to say still. I just hope they don't make it into a game of rock paper scissors with zerglings and spaceships.[/quote] Um...... Dragoons are weak against Hydralisks. An army of 12 Hydralisks will kill an army of 12 Dragoons because the Hydralisks attack quicker than the Dragoons. If it were a 1v1, then the Dragoon would win because it has shields, and a better attack. How long has it been since you've played a melee game Yoshi? This comment [quote=Yoshi da sniper]They heavily emphasize the fact that everything is vulnerable to something, which is not really the SC we all know and love.[/quote] is pretty rediculous in my opinion because every unit in Starcraft, has a unit that can counter it (i'm pretty sure people have already given examples) Marines can kill Zerglings, as long as there is a 2:1 ratio (or maybe even 3:1). But if there are more Zerglings than Marines, the Zerglings (depending if both the marines and zerglings are fully upgraded) will most likely win. Tanks are weak against all Air-to-ground (of course), and they counter most light ground units. Goliaths are strong against air, but kind of weak against more heavy ground units. Three zealots (with a skilled player) can wipe out six or seven marines with no problem at all. So honestly, how do you come to that conclusion Yoshi? Out of all the years I've played Starcraft, I've never heard this (notice the bold): [quote]They heavily emphasize the fact that everything is vulnerable to something, [b]which is not really the SC we all know and love.[/b][/quote] Ever since it came out everything has had a counter against it, and is strong against something... Care to point out some references to your claim? Or is it personal opinion?

Quote from Yoshi da Sniper

I've been reading up on SC2 some more. I think my biggest problem right now is that they're making this into a "rock paper scissors" game it almost appears.

They heavily emphasize the fact that everything is vulnerable to something, which is not really the SC we all know and love. I mean, its more of a matter of how you use the units not what kind they are. I don't see that much happening in SC2.

It's too early to say still. I just hope they don't make it into a game of rock paper scissors with zerglings and spaceships.

Um......

Dragoons are weak against Hydralisks.

An army of 12 Hydralisks will kill an army of 12 Dragoons because the Hydralisks attack quicker than the Dragoons.

If it were a 1v1, then the Dragoon would win because it has shields, and a better attack.


How long has it been since you've played a melee game Yoshi? This comment

Quote from Yoshi da sniper

They heavily emphasize the fact that everything is vulnerable to something, which is not really the SC we all know and love.

is pretty rediculous in my opinion because every unit in Starcraft, has a unit that can counter it (i'm pretty sure people have already given examples)

Marines can kill Zerglings, as long as there is a 2:1 ratio (or maybe even 3:1). But if there are more Zerglings than Marines, the Zerglings (depending if both the marines and zerglings are fully upgraded) will most likely win.

Tanks are weak against all Air-to-ground (of course), and they counter most light ground units.

Goliaths are strong against air, but kind of weak against more heavy ground units.

Three zealots (with a skilled player) can wipe out six or seven marines with no problem at all.




So honestly, how do you come to that conclusion Yoshi? Out of all the years I've played Starcraft, I've never heard this (notice the bold):

Quote

They heavily emphasize the fact that everything is vulnerable to something, which is not really the SC we all know and love.

Ever since it came out everything has had a counter against it, and is strong against something... Care to point out some references to your claim? Or is it personal opinion?

[QUOTE]So honestly, how do you come to that conclusion Yoshi?[/QUOTE]The videos they release constantly have it. "My tanks got raped by these new toss units, BUT NOW LETS BRING IN SOME REAPERS TO RAPE THEM!". It seems like some units overpower other units by design. [QUOTE]Care to point out some references to your claim?[/QUOTE]Sorry, I left my bibliography in my other pants. [QUOTE]Or is it personal opinion?[/QUOTE]Of course its not my opinion you silly goose. It's a[I] forum[/I] and everything that people post can't possibly be opinion. [QUOTE]How long has it been since you've played a melee game Yoshi?[/QUOTE]Are you attacking my argument or are you attacking me? I play SC melee from time to time with friends.

Quote

So honestly, how do you come to that conclusion Yoshi?

The videos they release constantly have it. "My tanks got raped by these new toss units, BUT NOW LETS BRING IN SOME REAPERS TO RAPE THEM!". It seems like some units overpower other units by design.

Quote

Care to point out some references to your claim?

Sorry, I left my bibliography in my other pants.

Quote

Or is it personal opinion?

Of course its not my opinion you silly goose. It's a forum and everything that people post can't possibly be opinion.

Quote

How long has it been since you've played a melee game Yoshi?

Are you attacking my argument or are you attacking me? I play SC melee from time to time with friends.

[quote=Yoshi da Sniper][QUOTE]How long has it been since you've played a melee game Yoshi?[/QUOTE]Are you attacking my argument or are you attacking me? I play SC melee from time to time with friends.[/quote] I cut out your other responses, cause you're trolling me into attacking you. Good job at trying though :) I was just asking a simple question, because if you haven't played since a lot of the new patches, I was just going to say that more then likely things have changed since then. Good assumption though :)

Quote from Yoshi da Sniper

Quote

How long has it been since you've played a melee game Yoshi?

Are you attacking my argument or are you attacking me? I play SC melee from time to time with friends.

I cut out your other responses, cause you're trolling me into attacking you. Good job at trying though

I was just asking a simple question, because if you haven't played since a lot of the new patches, I was just going to say that more then likely things have changed since then.

Good assumption though

[quote=Kellimus]I cut out your other responses, cause you're trolling me into attacking you. Good job at trying though :)[/quote]Or was it the other way around ;)

Quote from Kellimus

I cut out your other responses, cause you're trolling me into attacking you. Good job at trying though

Or was it the other way around

I hope it doesn't turn out like you are thinking :(. Anyways I hope with the first few patches it gets as good and enjoyable as Starcraft if not well that will suck :(.

I hope it doesn't turn out like you are thinking .
Anyways I hope with the first few patches it gets as good and enjoyable as Starcraft if not well that will suck .

Kellimus: It is the other way around. Yoshi is arguing and you're being a troll. He even answered some of your more silly statements in an amazingly polite way (I could NOT have done it that well). Conversely, you don't even bother to answer his arguments and continue to call him a troll. [insert thumbs down smiley] [QUOTE=Yoshi Da Sniper] The videos they release constantly have it. "My tanks got raped by these new toss units, BUT NOW LETS BRING IN SOME REAPERS TO RAPE THEM!". It seems like some units overpower other units by design.[/QUOTE] I'm sure the videos weren't meant to simulate actual game play. These sorts of strategies are present even in our SC. Example: Zealots own sunkens, if the sunkens are by themselves. Similarly, the new Toss unit owns Tanks, if they're by themselves. Add in Reapers, and you have a significantly more formidable defense. Example: Throw in some hydras and zerglings, and the sunkens are able to do a lot more. However, if the first video Blizzard showed replicated an intense quick paced complex battle, it would be too confusing to fully appreciate all the unit abilities and stuff. In short, the videos are exhibitions, not games. :)

Kellimus: It is the other way around. Yoshi is arguing and you're being a troll. He even answered some of your more silly statements in an amazingly polite way (I could NOT have done it that well). Conversely, you don't even bother to answer his arguments and continue to call him a troll. [insert thumbs down smiley]

Quote from Yoshi Da Sniper

The videos they release constantly have it. "My tanks got raped by these new toss units, BUT NOW LETS BRING IN SOME REAPERS TO RAPE THEM!". It seems like some units overpower other units by design.

I'm sure the videos weren't meant to simulate actual game play. These sorts of strategies are present even in our SC.
Example: Zealots own sunkens, if the sunkens are by themselves.
Similarly, the new Toss unit owns Tanks, if they're by themselves. Add in Reapers, and you have a significantly more formidable defense.
Example: Throw in some hydras and zerglings, and the sunkens are able to do a lot more.

However, if the first video Blizzard showed replicated an intense quick paced complex battle, it would be too confusing to fully appreciate all the unit abilities and stuff.

In short, the videos are exhibitions, not games.

[quote=Yoshi da Sniper][QUOTE]So honestly, how do you come to that conclusion Yoshi?[/QUOTE]The videos they release constantly have it. "My tanks got raped by these new toss units, BUT NOW LETS BRING IN SOME REAPERS TO RAPE THEM!". It seems like some units overpower other units by design.[/quote] The videos are terrible examples of gameplay. Blizzards developers have no idea how to play or balance the game as evidence seen from the videos only demonstrating single unit type battles. Its only through unit combinations (like Zealot + Dragoon or Tank + Vulture) do you see actual strategies and gameplay. In SC everything works out to be RPS and every unit has a counter ... zealots rape tanks, tanks rape goons, firebats rape zerglings, etc. But in reality you're going to pair tanks with vultures and mines to stop zealots from being too strong, you're going to combine templars with dragoons and zealots to take out tank + vult, you're going to see ling/hydra/lurker against MMF (probably without ling or firebats). So while the only gameplay we see in these videos may be single unit fights that has no grounds for assumption that the entire game will be played like that. Players will combine different unit types to make up for weaknesses and enhance strengths.

Quote from Yoshi da Sniper

Quote

So honestly, how do you come to that conclusion Yoshi?

The videos they release constantly have it. "My tanks got raped by these new toss units, BUT NOW LETS BRING IN SOME REAPERS TO RAPE THEM!". It seems like some units overpower other units by design.

The videos are terrible examples of gameplay. Blizzards developers have no idea how to play or balance the game as evidence seen from the videos only demonstrating single unit type battles. Its only through unit combinations (like Zealot + Dragoon or Tank + Vulture) do you see actual strategies and gameplay. In SC everything works out to be RPS and every unit has a counter ... zealots rape tanks, tanks rape goons, firebats rape zerglings, etc. But in reality you're going to pair tanks with vultures and mines to stop zealots from being too strong, you're going to combine templars with dragoons and zealots to take out tank + vult, you're going to see ling/hydra/lurker against MMF (probably without ling or firebats). So while the only gameplay we see in these videos may be single unit fights that has no grounds for assumption that the entire game will be played like that. Players will combine different unit types to make up for weaknesses and enhance strengths.

I'm not saying that hard counters do not exist in SC, I'm saying that with all the videos coming out they appear to be making it more obvious and those hard counters harder. You'd never hear from them that zealots are "supposed" to counter one thing, but thats the way they're making it sound. The game isn't released yet, everybody is still a bit skeptical at this point.

I'm not saying that hard counters do not exist in SC, I'm saying that with all the videos coming out they appear to be making it more obvious and those hard counters harder.

You'd never hear from them that zealots are "supposed" to counter one thing, but thats the way they're making it sound. The game isn't released yet, everybody is still a bit skeptical at this point.

They're making it sound like that because they are supposed to counter specific units. Thats how they're designing the game and its a pretty good approach. Thats one of the reasons I have hope for SC2.

They're making it sound like that because they are supposed to counter specific units. Thats how they're designing the game and its a pretty good approach. Thats one of the reasons I have hope for SC2.

Just as a generic statement, I don't think they're going to mess this up. Blizzard is a lot like Apple, everything they touch is gold. Except they're not quite as good as Apple, so sometimes they touch something and it turns into cow dooky; then the game gets canceled. But I see no reason why this game should be cow dooky.

Just as a generic statement, I don't think they're going to mess this up. Blizzard is a lot like Apple, everything they touch is gold. Except they're not quite as good as Apple, so sometimes they touch something and it turns into cow dooky; then the game gets canceled. But I see no reason why this game should be cow dooky.