There are many extremely effective ways to gain full xp while Assassin at night and he is far from a disadvantage. It's things like delay to Assassins L1 and cloaked xp gain that makes the hero need more skill to use and definitely should not be removed.

Ok for the sin, w/e ill just drop it since no one else agrees with me...

As for spawn system, it threw things out of Wack by gving ranged heroes a huge advantage. With the simple old spawn system, melee heroes could train at the same rate as ranged heroes, and ranged heroes could still me attacked by spawn depending on where they were, just like melee heroes. With the new system, ranged heroes can sit behind their fine early game, and not be attacked, while melée heroes are attacked by the rines, and get xtra damage taken, giving them an early advantage that translates into a bigger advantage late game, usually. This is one of the main reasons people seldom host a 1.5 version. If you want to keep wething to balanced summoner, then make the leader something strong, idc. The problem is the ranged attack. The first spawn leader should be a melée unit, not a ranged unit. That's the only problem with it.

ok ill agree with you somewhat and say it gave some heros and advantage over others depending on where they wanted to feed.

In the original it was all melee therefore it was either a stand next to your own spawn and maybe take dmg if you melee. You also reduce your exp because your own spawn gets some kills. The same goes for range fighting near spawn except they wont be taking any dmg because they will most likely be close enough just to kill but not be hit. Now if one wanted full exp from spawns the units had to fight away from there own spawn and mostly take some dmg because nothing was near them to protect them.

In 1.5 the ranged hero spawn came into effect. He kills broods fairly quickly and thus most people wont fight near spawn because there is less of a meat shield and exp dissappears faster. Range still can sit behind the lines and gain kills no dmg just like before except if he cant take out the rine fast enough sometimes he will take dmg. The melee can sit at front and avoid dmg a but the the rine will eventually shoot him. They can also fight for more exp and fight away from the spawn where both will take quite a bit of dmg but will get more exp than cowering near the battle line.

In truth it really hasn't affected the balance that much. The only thing it has done is make spawns that can actually kill a hero and some low hp heros have taking a hit because of this. Most of the heros have been compensated because of this and are quite fine although i'm not really happy with the zealot (who has the most hp) gaining a buff and the poor ling (who has the least) not gaining squat.

I agree the rines do a bit too much dmg but you cant really screw with it without messing up spawn 3. The same goes for most of the spawn. Unholy has used most units on the map and therefore can't really screw with too much without affecting other parts of the game or losing a spawn wave all together. The lings and hydras are the ones he can mess with the least.

Assassin is fine, even with 1.5 spawn. Having escape and a base captured, any semi-defensive player can quickly heal and get back to grinding. He just needs 2 attack ups and 5-6 armor ups at the start.

It's true about Warrior overpowering spawns. His l1 makes him take no dmg, so he can grind for a long time if not disturbed by heroes.

The spawn leader system isn't that bad at the start, and I actually like that they are rines- but later on, the spawn leaders are pretty strong, and if the enemies stack the spawns in one lane, it's extremely tough to counter for a lot of heroes that only have an average amount of exp.

off topic

but uh...what if....someone made a mod...for temple siege? think of the possibilitys!

I had actually thought of that before. The only problem would be that it wouldn't be playable on the regular battlenet, which could cause problems idk how.

No afk person is safe against the phantom (ghost). I Lvl3 him twice from the temple, dragged him past the cannons for the easy kill. He was the warrior (Zealot) by the way. As with phantom's l2, it is possible to pull off 2 shots before the spell disappears. For me, its easy to do, all you have to do (with a bit of skill) is to select the spell (ghost) as soon as he uncloaks and attack click the target. Only way an afk person can be safe without the conscent of his allies is to be a mech (lvl 3).

No, it just wouldn't be playable with the public.
Main problem is that it would either be mainly graphical, require a lot of work, have too few/small changes to be worth only being playable with other SENers/chatfriends, or require a special version of the map be made to accomodate balance.
I've managed 3, twice. : P

Lastly:

Engineer needs to be toned down. +6 per ups is too much, (I suggest +4), He is extremely deadly if paired up with a stunner, such as the Dark Mage's DA mael. To me, thats over the top. With his current damage upgrades, engineer can be possibly the new warrior on roids.

How does this have anything to do with gameplay? Any afk person is not safe from anyone. That's why u don't go afk during a battle...

And by saying it wudntb be playable on battlenet, I basically meant the public.

And about the engineer, +6 ups is not bad, considering he gets half damage on some heroes and such. The same could be sad about warrior, who gets better ups than engineer. Anyone paired with mael is dangerous, not just engineer. He is fine he way he is.

How'd u do it three times o.O that's impossible!! People already complain how it's hard to pull off one XD...

Anyway.. zealots do Not do the exact same damage.. they do twice the damage .. 18 in the editor = 18 per blade = 18x2 = 36 dmg.. however u can still get 0.5 dmg with 18 armor :\

I understand the problem with ranged heroes having an advantage with the current spawn system.. I knew that from the start, but I wanted to see just how much it would affect the melee units...
Unfortunately, I didn't perceive how big (smtimes) the advantage is for ranged heroes... So I will attempt to look more closely at the current spawn system and what other choices I have...

First, let's analyze the current situation




Other possible ways:

• Take out the Marine and put 2 spawns that is 1 level higher (meaning 6 broods, and 2 zlings.... then 6 zlings and 2 marines) - This would require me to rebalance everything XD.. but it will also re-unbalance the summoner. .. Another thing that I can do in conjunction with this is make the Spawns "evolve" per day/night cycle, rather than right now which requires 3 vision changes... This'd make the marines come out quicker.. but'd also change the game a lot... Might be an interesting experiment.
  
• Take out the Marine as a spawn all together. Which means after the zling, it'll spawn Zealots, which'd obviously be rebalanced.
  

Please comment, and add your own suggestions!

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Jun 2 2009, 10:05 pm by UnholyUrine.

Unholy, u know zealots do 2 hits right? So 18 armor completely nullifies their damage to 2, 1 per hit right? Damage shown when u highlight them is the combined damage of their 2 hits. Idk by .5 did you mean half DMg or .5 dmg points?

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jun 2 2009, 10:02 pm by ShredderIV.

Please read more closely next time ..

Well it'd be 0.5 per hit soo it'd be 1 damage with 18 armor. So i was wrong also

Sorry thought u meant half, like 18 dmg, not .5 dmg points per blade sry.

Combine that with his science vessal and hes rigged. Engineer should not be able to rape over half the unit characters alone. He even beats the summoner in 1v1. Not to mention he doesnt need to spend an additional 25 minerals to buy a probe as his l3 provides him with refinerys along with auto bunkers for protection. The only unit that counters the engineer "alone" is the phantom (focus shot ability).


As for the spawning system Unholy, another thing that I can suggest is that you can make the spawn leaders come out with 50% health. That way, people wont complain as much about the marines in the first wave, since they are now easier to kill. At the same time, they can give off more exp/money.

I've beaten engineer dozens of times... Warrior, assault, mutant, and mech all counter him, which is plenty of counters, in comparison to something like summoner that can easily 1v3. His refineries also cost more than a normal assim, so your 25 mins argument is completely mute.

I recommend that you check again. Refinerys and Assimulars both cost 30 minerals. Also the engineer also serves as a medic to the mech character.

So my argument still goes on....

And how does warrior counter engineer?! Skills have to be way imbalanced for that to happen. Engineer unleashes far more firepower than warrior due to the stimpack.

I'm pretty sure unholy changed engineer's cost for sims... And warrior easily counters everything engineer with his l4. His l3 and l2 also make short work of the engineer, and early-game he owns him with l1 and better dmg.

Let's continue to argue in terms of 1v1 in one specific matchup in order to prove how balanced a unit is.

Firebat does shitty damage to anyone moving, it's actually, I believe, 8 different potential hits based on how far he is from the opponent and the angle of attack. So yeah, anyone stunned is going to be eaten up.

Make armored assims cost a good amount of mana (50?) and that should balance them.

Engineer does the better damage overall. It has better attack speed, not to meantion it is also one of the fastest grinders in the game. The engineer can out-source the warrior in terns of civs. If an engineer user see's a warrior user spamming l2 & L3, he can simply just upgrade health. The engineer's attacks are fast enough (along with splash and range) that he can grind while he is engaging the enemy.

If a warrior happened to use his l4, an engineer can just sit back and play defensive. If the warrior happens to still charge into cannon fire, the combined attacks from the engineer and the cannon fire will rip right through that shield and into his health. An engineer rubbing against one of his bunkers (turns to player's control) increases the damage by +1 per attack upgrade. If warrior happened to upgrade his shield enough to absorb all of that, then he will have little attack power. Vice Versa.