pretty sure is not sure. when someone tells you to check again check it! don't just go off assumptions. Everyone knows what happens when you assume.

totally agree wariror owns the fbat.

The bat is strong vs chars he does full dmg to but he cant hurt buildings for shit, he has no range, and he has no attack spell. all he has is mines which can easily be avoided. He can exp like no tommorrow but he is pretty useless when it comes to actually killing something. The only way he becomes awesome is if he out exps the other team enough to lay down loads and loads of spidermines to where they can't exp efficiently anymore. He can also lay down refineries for his team and help them gain more minerals and thus the advantage over the other team. Hes a support hero much like the medic.

I think you underestimate warriors l4. The regen rate is so fast that cannons and bunks wouldn't break through it. And engineers cut dmg in the beginning cuts any of his ups out so warrior way out damages him...

The reason I said pretty sure was because I cudnt find anything previously posted on the cost of them... Maybe because I didn't look hard enuf... Idk...

A Marine does 36 damage over 2 hits also. The only difference is that he hits at a consistant rate, instead of hit-hit-wait. You pretty much ignored all the points I raised, anyways - all things considered, Zealots are essentially obsolete by the time they spawn, compared to Marines, atleast in my experience.
Both are 30, in the latest ( public ) version. The difference being, as Cohesion pointed out, that the Engineer doesn't pay for the Probe. The 25-mineral investment cost is avoided.
Which is, I would argue, just a perk to being the Engineer... I don't know if it's changed in the latest version, but last I knew, Bunkers' damage is mostly useless against players by hardly after the Engineer can put them up. Then again, I've only recently started doing much with the Engineer, and I've yet to encounter many who can use even his Spider Mines properly.
Assuming straight-up brawling. Warrior has Heroic Stance, his l1/l4 cut out huge chunks of the Engineer's damage ( particularly Irradiate, though a Warrior can usually shrug that off with his hitpoints, anyways... ) , and... l3.
As for the Phantom being the "only" counter to Engineer... Mech?
I've beaten all the classes plenty of times, but that's just because most public players are far worse than I ( and I'm pretty bad ) .

Personally, I agree that the Engineer can do a bit too much Warrioring, as it is, though I wouldn't say so emphatically.
If it would make people whine less without removing Marines from the first level spawn, then I would like to voice my support for this idea ( though perhaps I'd go for 75% or something, instead... ) .

agree know from personally expierence back when 100 shields and about 20 shield i could withstand 5 ling l2 casts without even moving and just letting them wail on me. if i move its even more and i bet the ling does 0 dmg to me.


i really like this idea but high mana cost is pretty lame id say 25 wouldn't be bad though.


as for balancing the spawn maybe we can switch the zealot and the rine? and adjust accordingly. maybe leave zeal as he is except for hp and increase the total rine dmg and maybe hp? This is really if we must change it personally i'd just fix the zealot spawn and give him more dmg since everything else seems to be fine for me.

The reason I had said about beating engineers was because cohesion claimed it was rigged, which usually means he's almost unbeatable.

Can't be done. The kill system is based off of kill score and zealots have 2x more score than marines....Unless UU changes the kill system...

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jun 3 2009, 2:11 am by xYoshix.

That wasn't me... It was killer.

Lol whoops. Forgot to delete your name on the top xD

For me to end my side of the arguement, I can say, that I may have exagguarated too much on the engineer. My definition of a rigged unit in temple siege is...

[A unit that excels at multiple roles beyond of which any other character can do]

Attributes of engineer: fast and agile, fast grinder, high dmg per ups, builds strong defense, high heath, heals mechnized units, reconnaissance (vision from mines and sci vessal), and mine cap.

More interesting abilities come from the science vessal. EMP puts the volt at such a disadvantage and irridate forces the summoner to make cutbacks.

To me, thats a lot to stuff to put into one character. Is there another character that comes this close to possessing this much of variety at such a high caliber level?

That's like saying mech is rigged...

Roles: base sieger, heavy grinder, quick and agile, high hp, generally high dmg, reconnasaince (vult), and above average attack spells... How does this make a character rigged????

I have noticed more glitches today in the current 1.5 d4 fixed version. Here are my findings:

-As assassin (dt) using l2 twice consecutively fast may spawn a permanent defiler
-As Earth Demon (Lurk) Sometimes on rare ocasions when you cast l1 or l3, the spell does not work and you get a message saying that you need to be burrowed for this to activate. The thing is... IM ALREADY BURROWED!!!!

That is all I have to report.

For the burrowed problem, it's usually because the ED is on the side of the ramp, which causes burrow detection to fail.

na its more than just that cause it happens everywhere. It happens whenever a unit walks over top of it or when your under a building although i haven't got a clue why.

I do not consider the mech rigged because of its limitations. It cannot use all of those abilities at once. Each time it transforms, theres a trade off. If say, the mech (gol) transforms into the siege tank, although its attack power and base armor and hp is higher, but its attack speed, its ability to effectively kill small targets, and grinding for exp diminishes. Loss in speed and increase size may make it hard to get through the chokepoints. Although it can transform itself constantly to fit better circumstances, it cannot cast those spells excessively within the desired variety other of a fast paced, shifting, combat encounter. The mech experiences these limitations early-mid game. (High mana usage)

One spell has enough power to cripple the mech's ability perfrom multiple roles/actions temporary. Medic's disable and a mana drain spell can significantly hinder its performance.

Although the engineer does not rely on spellcasting, but summoning, mana drain or disable is not a main concern.

Burrow detection involves constantly moving a unit to the location. If the unit is moved to the location, the unit is considered burrowed. If the unit is not moved to the location, the unit is considered not burrowed. When another unit walks over it, the unit is not moved to the location, so the Earth Demon is considered not burrowed.

well by your definition the mech should be rigged. He hardly ever has to heal if properly managed due to the fact he has more hp than any other char in the game and he can control the entire map. This is even without good micro. With good micro almost nothing can beat him.

Btw if your a mech and your hit by disable you are either a very bad mech or your at your temple surrounded by spawn. There is absolutely no reason to be hit by disable by a unit thats slower than 80% of the heros. And for mana drain there are 2 spells that still do this currently that i can think off rines web and the psions vortex thing. Both are extremly easy to dodge or get out of.

ok i get that but how come i never see this unit? i read about this but i don't quite understand how you can constantly move and not see the unit at all.

I should stress out the word "excel"......

Can the mech give as much intel as a mutant's l1? No, but the engineer can give almost as much by the use of spidermines and sci vessals.
Can the mech defend the 3 gates simontaneously like the archer in early-mid game? No, but the engineer can build invisible bunkers and tanks.
Can the mech's abilities be performed in multiple locations to assist allies like as the dark mage and DA? No, but the engineer can summon sci vessals to EMP or irridate.
Can the mech grind as fast as the volt without the comsumption of gas? No, but the engineer can.

The engineer can perform all of these abilites simontaneously to the extreme. Archer and volt counter mech. Volt has three stunning spells. The reasons why a good mech user may be stunned by disable is by accidently running into the medic at night or being cornered by another enemy (in which it is forced to move towards a less damaging opponent.

Also cohesion, you claim in your argument that mech is limited basically by mana, and that he "can't switch roles quickly in battle", but engineer also must use mana to fulfill all those rules, and also, The mech can TRANSFORM which in my book is a quick switch of roles, usable in combat.

W/e I'm finished arguing. One complaint prolly won't make unholy change anything ne ways.

Ok first Mech vs the stun problems and being cornered. If the mech is stupid enough to be cornered ok then yes he can be disabled. A good player isn't gona let this happen. They don't go places where they can get cornered. Also regardless medic disable doesn't stun therefore most of the time if he had to run past the medic to avoid dieing hes gona be in vulture mode. This mode can out run the spell if cast too late and if cast early to hit him when he runs through he can stop to avoid being hit by it. This is what the annimation effect is for.

Now if your so called cornering happens at night most likely not happening mech isn't gona stay in one spot hes gona go hero hunting. If mech stays in one spot yes he can get cornered. If hes disabled by an opponent its not gona matter much. Most of the time he is in vulture mode. He heals thwen goes back to feeding.

Now if he runs into a stun spell again he deserves to be disabled the only one that would come close to catching a good vulture is the volts L1 or if he chooses to fight hes gona let l2 catch him during day so he can kill the pathetic volt with his L1 by manualy attacking through his little spell.

Ok now back to discusion Bat vs Mech.
Mech out exps bat without mana sorry. Mech can feed 2 lanes while bat can only feed one if he isnt using mines and due to the recent nerfs to sci vessel limit of 2 and the mana they start with the vessel wont be irrading as many hero spawns that appear.

no he can't be he can come damn close to it. In fact at cornering heros hes one of the best.he can race to help an ally pick off a slow hero and then race again to go do it to another hero depending on where they are. He is annoying enough without a vessel and again vessels have been nerfed in version d. Still nice but they wont be casting as much as they were.

These buildings feed and are only not visable at night time. Regardless they don't earn the bat exp like the archer does so they aren't as good as archers at all. Please explain what you mean by defend because imo they do relatively nothing compared to the exp they give. If you mean they kill spawn cannons do that too and they don't die as easy. If your talking about keeping heros away they really don't unless its night time as most heros don't have detection.

This is the only one i will concede on because yess late game the mines can be tossed everywhere and give off tons of information. But thats late game so for most of the game the mech is just as good if not better than the bat.

ok now for where the mech excedes the bat
does the bat have to heal everytime his hp gets low? yes The mech no. He can just switch forms and when he does need to heal he runs back at lightning speed.

can the bat kill both refineries/assims and cannons and not get hurt while doing it? No. Can the mech yes he is a master building killer. His minerals will always be greater than yours(if you play against him) because he can go a pick off most of your refineries any time he wants.

can the bat chase down and kill a hero who is just outside of safety when he is a mile away?? no Can the mech? yes his vulture speed out runs almost everything there is a range that he can beat the bat and thus will pick off some heros as they are very near safety but will miss and regardless if they do get to the normal safe zone if they are slow enough they aren't always safe the mech can change to tank mode which he has presieged and take a nice pk shot on a hero with lower hp.

Can the bat actually kill the temple? No hes too weak but most of the time he can help give his allies the edge to kill it. Can the mech? Yes very easily. he also need not collapse the men on the temple either but due to the exp boost he most certainly can if he wants to.

Can the bat with his allies defend all of his assims from the mech while attacking the mechs assims? No he will be lucky to even defend his own. The mech can both attack and defend his sims even outside of base quite well with team support. You don't even have a chance at taking one down duirng the day. At night he can also lay spider mines to moniter if you are trying to pick off any assims.
*Note* i would compare this to other heros but the bat actually does a fair job of protecting his assims especialyl with the extra armor they have. Now with that armor being reduced though He will not be able to sim the entire map unopposed.

Can the bat run up to a hero and instant pk him? no Can the mech? yes especially if he has been keeping the mineral edge all game like he should. One cast of L4 will decimate many heros even though it is split upgrades in this version which is deffinately a good thing.

I'm sure i left out some stuff but thats just to get you started.

*edit* yep forgot one and just popped into mind

Can the bat dodge a spell that surrounds him and prevents him from escaping? No. Can the mech? yes he can change forms to dodge a powerful attack or even to avoid some dmg by a surround spell.

Hi guys ..
The Engineer is one of the new characters, so obviously there'd be issues with him.

I think due to his splash, and his high HP, he does have an advantage. I think I will make it 24+4 damage (it is 24+6 right now).

The mech is definately >> firebat due to firebat doing less damage to it, and that the firebat has no stunning spells, and can't irradiate/emp the mech.
Rather.. firebat + mech would work as a great team.

Also, not many people realize this, but the "mounted gun" has everything x2. It costs 2x the gas, 2x the time, but does 2x the damage (90+5) and has 900 HP and 15 armor. It can still be killed by paralysing spells (so Volt, Warrior, Assassin, and Assault is > mounted gun), but now the Mounted Gun is a very good defense. Remember that your Allies can also walk beside it and it will become theirs. (this is again, why mech + firebat is a great team .. maybe too good ><")

Another issues with the new Engineer is that his Mine Drone's mines aren't invincible.. and I've found that they keep killing themselves before they can be used.... This would lead me to increase the Mine's Hp (3, 150 armor) to 5.

Lastly.. please disucss this!

If no comments.. then I'm gonna do w/e I want XD