as i have said unholy i have no problem with the way spawn is now i actually prefetr it compared to screwing with it. There are only a few more heros that need a fix volt light mage are the biggest the rest seem pretty fine dispite the complaints. Many of the heros do fine people just don't like that fact they actually have to be skilled now and can't just feed and concentrate on pking.

I think the main problem with melee units is that they can't step off of the capturing beacon to kill the rines attacking them. This means that low hp characters like mutant and assasin are unable to cature the outpost without dieing. Maybe a change in capturing systems would help balance this out.

IMO, this hero is fine. A decrease in Attack would do well.
I don't think that the nerf of the DM's attack was neccisary. Change it back to +5 Its immobility also makes it take more damage, but it has somewhat high hp.
Assasin has problems early game with its low hp. It cannot capture outposts without dying. Also, it is hard to attack an enemy. If marines are backing the enemy up, then the assasin loses tons of hp, and eventually is forced to retreat. At night, it is very difficult to farm. If an assasin hits a marine, it will run away and you will miss the other spawns if you chase after it. I don't really know what can help it, but maybe an hp or armour increase would do well.
It is nearly impossible to capture bases with a mutant if it's being hit by marines. This hero could use some hp. The problem with this is that, if i gains more hp, it might not be fragile anymore and won't be easy to kill in PvP.
A decrease in shields would probably help balance it.
I have played volt many times and I had trouble farming. Its bulkyness is, in fact, an issue. It is big and slow, which is a good target for marines. It can easily lose a lot of its shields, quick. A shield increase would help. Maybe some armor and hp, too.
Light mage really has problems early game. It gets shredded by marines and broodlings easily. Maybe a shield/energy increase would do the trick, but psionic storm could lead to team-killing :S Maybe lower the cost of hallucination so that it is used more?
I think that the spawn counter did the trick. I agree with it not being as easy and fun anymore, but it balances it out. Before, if your opponents had a summoner, and you had no mech, then it would be very easy to level with the summoner. It is different now and needs more skill and micro.

If the Earth Demon is unburrowed, SC will try to move the unit to the Earth Demon's location, but fail. If the Earth Demon is burrowed, SC will move the unit to the Earth Demon's location, and promptly move it back, too fast to be seen.

People keep complaining that mutant and assassin have too low hp...
Early Game:
Mutant in the early game CAN capture bases if there are no heroes opposing him. It there are (which usually there are) your job isn't to kill the enemies or capture the base. Instead, you should delay as long as possible so your other teammates can hopefully help you. If you keep stalling until they get tired enough to chase you, then you run to heal since you're so fast and come back before base is captured.
Assassin is pretty much the same thing except that it can't do this as well as mutant. MAYBE give more hp, i dunno. It seems fine for me. Assassin can stall the middle base as long as he wants though.

I may agree with this as to why he doesn't need hp but considering the warrior recieved a buff, who certainly did not need one considering his massive hp, One would certainly think all the other chars that took a hit would get a buff as well wether or not it helped a ton. Honestly I don't think the ling has that many problems and the dt does not either.

I just think the warrior should have been left alone he had no problems. Instead hes going from overpowered to a slight buff from his original state while none of the other characters that suffered from this spawn change have gotten any kind of change whatsoever.

As for the mutant and dt delay yea they are obviously not strong enough to cap by themselves. Both have completely worthless L1's in terms of hurting the opponent. Therefore they must delay. Problem is the spawn at both top and bottom clutters in so while they could stall they most likely can only do this a little bit because they can obviously only take so much dmg from the opposing spawn.

That makes the middle ideal for delaying since the spawn won't attack you if you don't go in there line of fire, which at the middle you can interupt without doing so. the mutant can make it back in short order so essentially he can beat the muzzer if he doesn't get stuck which is nice. The Assassain has to draw the opposing hero away a bit and teleport out and then precede to run as fast as possible back.

My feeling is if your going to buff a char that needs no buff the rest affected should get a buff as well.

The Warrior wasn't supposed to get a buff, but Unholy only took half of my suggestion. I said 5200 or 5500 and 150, not 5800.

He had too much life, was the problem, and it's only been made worse.


I've pretty much just been playing melee though, I've mostly given up on both versions.

even then if he increased spell 1 power its overpowered because it gives him 2 much shield power and he can pump mana and constantly use l1 to take 1 dmg from everything without any shield ups. lings make it harder so then hes forced to put some into shield but hes still pretty fine. pumping shield only increases what he can do. I think personally 120 max shield or 150 if its easier to play off percentages for spell 1 and 10 recharge as it was before and prolly drop hp to 5500 would be quiet sufficient.

i tried a weapon+shield warrior with a bunch of mana.. without armor up lol it was fun until DM got the mana drain thing :{

You can do it on any version, you just need to get a few more plasma shield upgrades. It's not even close to as effective as other routes the Warrior can take.

I beg to differ lol. I hardly have to heal when using it properly and you can spam so may spells its insane. a few hp points doesn't hurt though. Plasma shield with weapons works very well although i usually hold out on spell 4 until i face a threat because that allows me to fire off more other spells. Pretty easy to take out what you need to as well.

Agreed. Warrior either needs to have all defensive spells, or less hp. The problem is, he has a mad amount of hp, even with 5800, has a mad powerful defensive l4, a powerful l2, and high attack ups. So basically he is both a base and player killer, and accels at both of them. I think he Needs a major downgrade. I say stick with the 100 shields but reduce the hp maybe as far as 5500, maybe further.

I second this but i would either do 100 shields or another reasonable number as long as the first spell has 10shields and no higher. If the number is increased for spell for i would say lower than 5500 if not 5500 seems good. Best to test it though.

Another string issue: the description for carpet bomber says "summons dropship with 4 bombs w/ same effect as above". Trouble is, the bombs don't have the same effect as the assualt's l2 anymore.

I played a version in which the Nuclear Ghost was running around and it did an amazing amount of damage. Rigged, godlike damage. Is this an oopsies?

Other than that, I like the current build.

Warrior's probably gonna get 5600-5800HP and 120 shields. end of story.

For the Earth Demon, I will be trashing it's L2 and putting something completely new... It'll be a lot like LM's old Light of Binding
The observer is a bit easy to kill, and I totally agree. I am thinking of making it invincible, as paralysing still stops the lurker.

Yes, the Nuclear Ghosts have 50+7. It is not an oopsie, it is because I had to use the ghosts for Phantom's L4. However, now that I think about it, I can put in the Real, instead of hallus, of the infested Durans and make them 50+7 dmg (if that works)... then I can put the Nuclear ghosts back down.

I also have been thinking a lot about the Summoner and LM... and I have some Ideas to improve them.
1. For the Summoner, either when it's burrowed, or there'd be some extraneous switch, it will summon Infested Terrans rather than Zerglings. Remembering that IT's have 3 hp but 175 armor, they can do damage, and can help the Summoner get kills more easily, while also not affecting the current balance between Zerglings + spawns + heroes.
The new "summon counter" probably will apply to IT's as well, but probably 2 max. I also need to think about putting a cap on the max IT's summonable.

2. LM is terribly lacking at the grinding department. Therefore, I shall increase its damage to ~32+5. Now, I know you're thinking "Omg, Unholy's so fucking stupid, he forgot that Light Barrier uses Aldarises, which has the same damage as LM, so now Lm's L1 is even more OP!!!"
EEEEEEHH!!! wrong... I'm cutting LM's L1 to spawning only 4 Aldarises, carefully surrounding the LM . This actually makes LM's L1 less damaging... :\... but may be a good way to balance due to its now higher damage... Obviously, the next step would be changing its HP to be higher or adding the 2ndary L1, where it recharges its shield if L1's casted twice... but only if this idea doesn't work/u guys don't like it.

What'd u think??

Summoner: with the change to the summoner he wont have as much need for L2 and if you put a cap laying traps (on way back to base) at night for heros close to death will be pointless.

Warrior: 10 shields for L1? if not you need to buff the rest of the melee characters accordingly. As i've said i'm all for a buff but even 12 base shields is uncalled for on a hero that is doing the best out of all the heros affected by that new spawn system without buffing the other affected heros as well.

LightMage: Not thrilled about this at all. yea you made grinding easier but you made him more useless when fighting other heros. Before he could trap opponents by surrounding them which often times save him from certain death and/or earned him a kill.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jun 8 2009, 6:50 pm by killer_sss.

Give it a a teleport plus the lower damage 4 High Templars.

Make it so that the Templars spawn after his teleport is over.


Don't take away the Summoner's ability to spawn Zerglings while burrowed.

Didn't we talk about the Teleport thing already.. and that I said that I didn't like the idea?
Wait... Hold that thought...

.... Are hallus of DTs and Observers cloaked against unvisioned players... and not cloaked with visioned players??
This may be the solution to Earth Demon's problem...
As for the "surrounding" thing.. Pigy has already made that clear to me. I can still make it spawn 8 aldaris's, but only 4 of them will work (that kinda sux but it's the best bet)
For some very very strange reason I'm interested in the teleport idea...
Kinda like this:
You build zealot.
Your Lm turns into an observer.
After 4-6 seconds, or when the observer is killed, you come back (invincible) and spawn those aldaris's.. which obviously will decrease in number.

This would only work if the observer a hallucination.. or it'd be too much exp for foes (same dilemma with Earth Demon.. but for him, it is cooler if the observer's cloaked during night)...

.. as for the Summoner... We'll c about the cap on infested terrans... I'll leave that out for now..
@Faz- what's a better method of summoning IT's instead of zlings.. when you want it? I understand that at night, you like to burrow and surprise spawn zerglings.... but wouldn't Infested terrans work too? XD...

Unholy, I like the lm idea for teleporting, but what if you use it as a double l1, where when he uses it a second time he changes into the obs, so his aldaris' stay but he runs away.

the infesteds dont work because if you try to mass produce and surrond 1 explodes and does dmg and the others do not due to splash dmg dealt from the exploding infested.

as far as i'm aware it doesn't matter if they have vision or not halcinations don't spawn cloaked.

also for earth demon i'm not quite for the invincible observer. I like how you made l3 invincible which obviously in later situations is the more appropriate spell to use and they are kind of forced tto because observer can be killed so easily.

I'll brign up an old idea of mine what about tossing on some armor to reduce early game kills by players but still killable by spawn. Then later game most damage from ranged units could still 1hit the observer if he choose to use that spell vs L3.

I'd say give the observer 3 hp and hmm idk 50-100 armor. Not sure which range would work best for this based on units dmgs because i can't recall them all without looking. could also give the observer more hp if needed but i doubt ull need.

eh one more thing to add. Since the stun spell is disappearing can we fix the spell 3 patrol to center area and do like you said a while back and patrol to lurker instead. I really hate having to put the object im trying to kill between me and the center of the map. This is especially annoying for some cannons like the one in the middle near water its not the easiest to kill even with spell 3 i usually gotta cast more than once to kill the damn thing.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jun 8 2009, 7:49 pm by killer_sss.