What? No sir, if you're talking about the actual hero Archer, it takes above 10 upgs.

Guys, everyones chopping summoner. When really it only has one good spell. Lvl 1. Lvl 2 is only useful for taking hits, and even then they die fast. Since the infesteds dont change all at once surrounding and changing doesnt work well. Lvl 3 is only good if you have lvl 4 and if you plan on assaulting the enemys base via swarm. Lvl 4 is basically just a feed whore. You can only get two ultras and mana is better spent on zerglings. The only time you get owned by summoner is if they are allowed to grind the entire beginning of the game or if they out micro you. So either kill their lings or learn to micro. Battle tanks own a summoner in the med-long of games too. You just have to protect them with your heros and they will take out cannons. And if your a powerful spell hero like LM, Archer or zergling all you have to do is just get some HP and spam your spells and a summoner cant touch you. Personally when an enemy does this in game and i'm summoner I just sneak around and rape their base while they are far away like noobs. If you take away glands how is it supposed to even touch a LM or a ling, or any other spell hero? the only thing it could take would be like a freaking volt or DM.. Especially if you reduce the ling max, Cuzz not only do you have less to swarm but you can't deal damage quickly enough, HP enemys will rape you. Maybe if you give summoner better spells it will be okay to reduce lings and things like that. But if you just take lings and glands away then it will be under powered.

I am also against any kinda of summoner nerf, but I know my opinion here is biased.

Another vote for not killing adrenal glands. They make for an interesting strategic decision for mutant players: do you invest in them at the expense of lurker/melee upgrades, when the only return you see is to your L2 spell? On one hand, the glands really take you to a different level of damage with the L2 (seemingly far more so than you'd expect based on the percentage increase in attack rate); but on the other, if you invest heavily in your L2, you're losing out on your lurkers, which are much easier and safer to land hits with. It'd unnecessarily mess up the summoner too, I suppose, though that's not as interesting as the ling L2 situation. As I see it, the summoner doesn't need to be any weaker, it just needs to be locked out by triggers in situations where the 2v2 tourney rules would ban it. In 3v3, the other team has a sufficiently fair shot of blocking it from feeding that I don't see the need for any changes.

Also, I approve this 1 second delay. It motivates people to actually fucking get some more hp.

This map powns, but isn't the zealot a bit strong in dmg?

1 second delay is unessicary and stupid. "OMFGWTF I CLICKED ZLOT AND IT DIDNT TELE ME WTF THIS SUCKS GG IM LEAVING".

And no dev, the zealot doesn't have to much dmg.

And I think archer should get 25-30 base dmg.

killer_sss -- personally i think the summoner could use some actual summons. atm lings do the job alone and really thats no fun to use only one spell. ultras are cool but if they die u just gave ur opponents a civ most likely. only good to finish off the base and honestly i just dont bother. its far simpler to just swarm and ling the silly temple to death. there endless for one especially if you just pump mana which theres nothing really else to pump on him.

My vote new summons but its not my map and i don't like complaining cause i did none of the hard work to make it. i will start playing m2 again so i can find that invincibility bug so i can send you a reply to see if you can fix it.

im not saying summoner needs much of a nerf, my main issue is archer being like a wiffleball bat and every other class ranges from hard plastic to solid steel, i mean come on if medic does more than an archer class there is a problem, personally i think archer needs a long range spell casted from a gaurdian, i mean thats what archers are about is range, yet mechs have more range.

3 DM vs 3 DM would be funny MASS BROODLING WARS + MAEL+ STORM!

I have also thought this.

I'm going to lie... I've often thought about the idea of having a limit one hero per TEAM rather than everyone.


Then we could actually test who is the best ts player of a certian class, take about ego trips

Mutant is really the only reason I don't want to get rid of them. A set of cracklings really eats anything alive.
If the Mutant really needs it and the Summoner doesn't, just remove the Hive. Hive is required for researching Zergling's attack speed, but not movement speed.

Sounds like your claim has less to do with balance and everything to do with the change being new. At worst, you really should die just once or twice from not knowing and then learn how to use it. Even then, there is nothing preventing you from telling whoever picked Assassin in your game about the change. I tell people about it, even when they're on the other team.

On a side note, if you're having trouble adapting to a broken tradition this small, you're in for a real rude awakening when Unholy or I start putting out our new versions.

Many have suggested it, I would like to see a spell like that as the level 3. I'd say something like 300+20 damage would be pretty fair. Lowering the Companion to level 2 would definitely make it a more viable option, too.

god yes, idea BING, take companions out of spell3, put in a gaurdian skill, and make the archer camp spawn larva that morph into archer companions, you can call it the archery grounds and the larva can be like trainees of some sort training to work with the head archer O_o, also lowering companions gas cost a tiny bit due to its low hp and high exp yield.

Perhaps give the summoner the Hive as (part of?) its 3rd spell?

Then you need to see better players controlling the archer. It's an easy class to use poorly; a lot of people either forget that the L1 spell is just an L1, or refuse to use it in situations where it's necessary just because they want the hydralisk to fight like a marine or a mech. Used correctly, it's far from underpowered; it has a decent spell for early fighting and multi-lane feeding capabilities. I'm not a great archer player, but have found that the people who think that it's underpowered and therefore not a threat invariably die for their overconfidence.

uholy and moose. i trust u guys to make this game good but latey the last 2 "updates" have fixxed some issues but in the process created even more issues then before.


and can u make a special version that unlocks 1 hero per every1 so we cna have some ego fights lol) xD

Leave it to unholy, you made to many bad changes, bug fixes were great but no one likes a lot of the other changes.

its underpowered vs summoner when 5 sunkens 3 cannons and all the mutas in the world do 0 damage in dark swarm.