Staredit Network > Forums > Serious Discussion > Topic: Protected vs. Unprotected
Protected vs. Unprotected
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Jun 22 2008, 10:24 pm
By: Brontobyte
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Polls
Which do you prefer?
Which do you prefer?
Answer Votes Percentage % Voters
Protected 19
 
38%
Unprotected 31
 
62%
None.
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Poll has 50 votes. You can vote for at most 1 option(s).

Jun 22 2008, 10:24 pm Brontobyte Post #1



Ok, so if you have read the title you should already know what this is going to be about. For those of you who didn't read it, this topic will be about map protection vs. map unprotection.

Here, I want others to either choose one or the other, and explain why they like what they chose, and or if they dislike the other and for what reason(s). You can only pick one answer, and you have to choose before you can view others posts and reply with a post.

I will start it off:

I think all maps should be unprotected.

Reasons Why:
  • You can read comments, if comments are present.
  • The map usually looses some quality from protection/compression.
  • Most people don't understand the fact that if StarCraft can read and play the map, it can be unprotected.
  • Unused Unprotector can unprotect any map out there.*
  • If someone knows what they are doing, theres no stopping them. -NerdyTerdy

Plus, along time ago, before I knew as much as I do now at map making tricks and techniques, I used to play a map that featured some neat effect and then wonder how the map maker did it. Now in retrospect, I look back and what was being done is something more common today, but back then, it was awesome. The map was "Binary Defense" by SoftWareWolf aka SWW(U) . The trick was the Terran Supply Depot -> Terran Bunker -> Terran Beacon -> Disable Doodad State -> Vision and it blew my mind away at how he did it. I remember playing it and saving replays and slowing them down to try to see what was going on. I latter unprotected it, once I knew that there was ways to do so, and found out how it was done.

The moral of this story is that less experienced map makers can learn from others works of art. I today keep all of my maps unprotected with trigger comments so that others can see my thoughts as I created my triggers, and what trigger does what.

* Or at least all of the ones that I unprotected

What do you think and why?

(I also want to add that this is a soar subject so don't be immature, or post anything flaming others. :D Play nice.)



None.

Jun 22 2008, 10:34 pm XGhozt Post #2



I only protect maps when there's a potential that someone might edit it and release it as their own work. I don't mind people learning from things I do, I encourage that much. But, at most, I would hardcode credits into the map. I only use programs which would allow me to view the triggers on a protected map, because sometimes it's easier to learn from working code. ^^



None.

Jun 22 2008, 10:34 pm Brontobyte Post #3



Quote from XGhozt
..I don't mind people learning from me.

Exactly my point. I mean sure, you can unprotect the map you wish to, but its no fun looking at a bunch of triggers that have no comments, or having locations that just have numbers. Its too hard to grasp what the map maker intended everything to be.



None.

Jun 22 2008, 10:36 pm XGhozt Post #4



Quote from Brontobyte
Quote from XGhozt
..I don't mind people learning from me.

Exactly my point. I mean sure, you can unprotect the map you wish to, but its no fun looking at a bunch of triggers that have no comments, or having locations that just have numbers. Its too hard to grasp what the map maker intended everything to be.
I generally put comments on all of my triggers, just because I hate having to open every trigger to figure out what was what.. :rolleyes:



None.

Jun 22 2008, 10:37 pm Ultraviolet Post #5



I chose protection obviously, I explained my reasons in the other thread, but I'll restate them here with a little more description.

I don't prefer for maps to be protected, but I prefer for the author's wishes to be respected. He created the map for you, and if he protected it, he created it for you to play, not to learn from. Maybe he implemented some really cool system that he wants to remain unique to his map. The first time I saw disabled terran marines and terran ghosts I was in awe. Every time after that it was the same old shit. Obviously this is a minor example, but it gives an overall idea of the point I'm trying to convey.

Or maybe he protected it because he doesn't want some jackass spending 20 minutes editing the map, and changing all the credits to say that he made it after doing some minor changes that probably weren't even good for the map. I see this kind of shit all the time, with some tiny reference to the original author in the map description, and nowhere else. Credit isn't everything, but it's nice to receive credit after you've spend hours toiling on a map that you've created for everyone else's enjoyment. People editing a map (generally with shitty changes), then taking credit for the entire map is totally disrespectful.

If you unprotect a protected map, you are going against the maker's wishes, which at the least is completely disrespecting him.


Quote from XGhozt
Quote from Brontobyte
Quote from XGhozt
..I don't mind people learning from me.

Exactly my point. I mean sure, you can unprotect the map you wish to, but its no fun looking at a bunch of triggers that have no comments, or having locations that just have numbers. Its too hard to grasp what the map maker intended everything to be.
I generally put comments on all of my triggers, just because I hate having to open every trigger to figure out what was what.. :rolleyes:

If I ever bother actually releasing a map, I'm going to intentionally put random ass triggers in there that don't really do shit just to confuse anyone who thinks it's okay to open my map. My biggest frustration with people unprotecting maps is that it's basically the same thing as breaking and entering someone's home. People lock both for a reason.




Jun 22 2008, 10:40 pm Brontobyte Post #6



Quote from XGhozt
I generally put comments on all of my triggers, just because I hate having to open every trigger to figure out what was what.. :rolleyes:

Others might disagree with that statement saying something along the lines of "The trigger conditions and actions are more important then a general 3 word summary..."



None.

Jun 22 2008, 10:40 pm Jello-Jigglers Post #7



No protection.
1)people can easily unblock it.
2)if your map deserves notoriety, it will get it even if people try to steal it.
3)sc maps originally began unprotected, so that's the way Blizzard intended them to be.



None.

Jun 22 2008, 10:43 pm Ultraviolet Post #8



Quote from Jello-Jigglers
No protection.
1)people can easily unblock it.
2)if your map deserves notoriety, it will get it even if people try to steal it.
3)sc maps originally began unprotected, so that's the way Blizzard intended them to be.


Or maybe they just didn't have the foresight to see that it would be needed. You can't assume that was the intention. Did Blizzard originally intend for 4 pool to rape the shit out of everybody? No. That's why they fixed it later. Map making hasn't been given nearly as much attention by Blizzard as melee though. If it had been given as much attention I imagine that there would have been some big changes made.




Jun 22 2008, 10:47 pm XGhozt Post #9



All valid points NerdyTerdy, but I have one problem with your theory. You have nothing to lose, and nothing to gain, unless you're otherwise selling the map, which.. you're not. And personally, I'd be flattered if I came up with an idea and within a week it was all over the mapping community. It's that, or turn down the hundreds of requests and questions from map makers asking how/what/when/where and your map.

Only to have you say "Sorry, I protected it because it's my idea", which sucks.



None.

Jun 22 2008, 10:48 pm Brontobyte Post #10



Quote from name:NerdyTerdy
I chose protection obviously, I explained my reasons in the other thread, but I'll restate them here with a little more description.

I don't prefer for maps to be protected, but I prefer for the author's wishes to be respected. He created the map for you, and if he protected it, he created it for you to play, not to learn from. Maybe he implemented some really cool system that he wants to remain unique to his map. The first time I saw disabled terran marines and terran ghosts I was in awe. Every time after that it was the same old shit. Obviously this is a minor example, but it gives an overall idea of the point I'm trying to convey.

Or maybe he protected it because he doesn't want some jackass spending 20 minutes editing the map, and changing all the credits to say that he made it after doing some minor changes that probably weren't even good for the map. I see this kind of shit all the time, with some tiny reference to the original author in the map description, and nowhere else. Credit isn't everything, but it's nice to receive credit after you've spend hours toiling on a map that you've created for everyone else's enjoyment. People editing a map (generally with shitty changes), then taking credit for the entire map is totally disrespectful.

If you unprotect a protected map, you are going against the maker's wishes, which at the least is completely disrespecting him.


Quote from XGhozt
Quote from Brontobyte
Quote from XGhozt
..I don't mind people learning from me.

Exactly my point. I mean sure, you can unprotect the map you wish to, but its no fun looking at a bunch of triggers that have no comments, or having locations that just have numbers. Its too hard to grasp what the map maker intended everything to be.
I generally put comments on all of my triggers, just because I hate having to open every trigger to figure out what was what.. :rolleyes:

If I ever bother actually releasing a map, I'm going to intentionally put random ass triggers in there that don't really do shit just to confuse anyone who thinks it's okay to open my map. My biggest frustration with people unprotecting maps is that it's basically the same thing as breaking and entering someone's home. People lock both for a reason.

You do prove some good points but I would have to disagree with you. If you wanted to protect your map and have it always be yours, you could just do the same thing blizzard does to all of there maps.

For anyone who has never edited or tried to edit one of blizzards maps, it comes up with an error. Something like "Save as blizzard certified? Will not be playable over battle.net (can cause 'unable to authenticate map error message')" If blizzard can do it, so can someone who can make a program to do it. I'm pretty sure that this would be extremely hard to modify. If such a program were ever invented, the creator would always have that little credit, that they were the original creator of the map, no matter what the text says anywhere else. No of course with everything new that comes out, there is something equally as powerful that will negate it, but it would be a great idea.

*HINT*FaRTy*HINT* :shifty:



None.

Jun 22 2008, 10:51 pm Ultraviolet Post #11



Quote from Brontobyte
Quote from name:NerdyTerdy
I chose protection obviously, I explained my reasons in the other thread, but I'll restate them here with a little more description.

I don't prefer for maps to be protected, but I prefer for the author's wishes to be respected. He created the map for you, and if he protected it, he created it for you to play, not to learn from. Maybe he implemented some really cool system that he wants to remain unique to his map. The first time I saw disabled terran marines and terran ghosts I was in awe. Every time after that it was the same old shit. Obviously this is a minor example, but it gives an overall idea of the point I'm trying to convey.

Or maybe he protected it because he doesn't want some jackass spending 20 minutes editing the map, and changing all the credits to say that he made it after doing some minor changes that probably weren't even good for the map. I see this kind of shit all the time, with some tiny reference to the original author in the map description, and nowhere else. Credit isn't everything, but it's nice to receive credit after you've spend hours toiling on a map that you've created for everyone else's enjoyment. People editing a map (generally with shitty changes), then taking credit for the entire map is totally disrespectful.

If you unprotect a protected map, you are going against the maker's wishes, which at the least is completely disrespecting him.


Quote from XGhozt
Quote from Brontobyte
Quote from XGhozt
..I don't mind people learning from me.

Exactly my point. I mean sure, you can unprotect the map you wish to, but its no fun looking at a bunch of triggers that have no comments, or having locations that just have numbers. Its too hard to grasp what the map maker intended everything to be.
I generally put comments on all of my triggers, just because I hate having to open every trigger to figure out what was what.. :rolleyes:

If I ever bother actually releasing a map, I'm going to intentionally put random ass triggers in there that don't really do shit just to confuse anyone who thinks it's okay to open my map. My biggest frustration with people unprotecting maps is that it's basically the same thing as breaking and entering someone's home. People lock both for a reason.

You do prove some good points but I would have to disagree with you. If you wanted to protect your map and have it always be yours, you could just do the same thing blizzard does to all of there maps.

For anyone who has never edited or tried to edit one of blizzards maps, it comes up with an error. Something like "Save as blizzard certified? Will not be playable over battle.net (can cause 'unable to authenticate map error message')" If blizzard can do it, so can someone who can make a program to do it. I'm pretty sure that this would be extremely hard to modify. If such a program were ever invented, the creator would always have that little credit, that they were the original creator of the map, no matter what the text says anywhere else. No of course with everything new that comes out, there is something equally as powerful that will negate it, but it would be a great idea.

*HINT*FaRTy*HINT* :shifty:

I've edited Blizzard's maps a lot. Never had an issue, so I dunno what you're talking about. And even if that were the case, we obviously don't have the knowledge of how to do that. If we did, unprotection wouldn't be an issue.




Jun 22 2008, 10:53 pm Twitch Post #12



Unprotection
Simply because I find no good reason for protection other then to keep the noobs out.



None.

Jun 22 2008, 10:55 pm Brontobyte Post #13



Quote from name:NerdyTerdy
Quote from Brontobyte
Quote from name:NerdyTerdy
I chose protection obviously, I explained my reasons in the other thread, but I'll restate them here with a little more description.

I don't prefer for maps to be protected, but I prefer for the author's wishes to be respected. He created the map for you, and if he protected it, he created it for you to play, not to learn from. Maybe he implemented some really cool system that he wants to remain unique to his map. The first time I saw disabled terran marines and terran ghosts I was in awe. Every time after that it was the same old shit. Obviously this is a minor example, but it gives an overall idea of the point I'm trying to convey.

Or maybe he protected it because he doesn't want some jackass spending 20 minutes editing the map, and changing all the credits to say that he made it after doing some minor changes that probably weren't even good for the map. I see this kind of shit all the time, with some tiny reference to the original author in the map description, and nowhere else. Credit isn't everything, but it's nice to receive credit after you've spend hours toiling on a map that you've created for everyone else's enjoyment. People editing a map (generally with shitty changes), then taking credit for the entire map is totally disrespectful.

If you unprotect a protected map, you are going against the maker's wishes, which at the least is completely disrespecting him.


Quote from XGhozt
Quote from Brontobyte
Quote from XGhozt
..I don't mind people learning from me.

Exactly my point. I mean sure, you can unprotect the map you wish to, but its no fun looking at a bunch of triggers that have no comments, or having locations that just have numbers. Its too hard to grasp what the map maker intended everything to be.
I generally put comments on all of my triggers, just because I hate having to open every trigger to figure out what was what.. :rolleyes:

If I ever bother actually releasing a map, I'm going to intentionally put random ass triggers in there that don't really do shit just to confuse anyone who thinks it's okay to open my map. My biggest frustration with people unprotecting maps is that it's basically the same thing as breaking and entering someone's home. People lock both for a reason.

You do prove some good points but I would have to disagree with you. If you wanted to protect your map and have it always be yours, you could just do the same thing blizzard does to all of there maps.

For anyone who has never edited or tried to edit one of blizzards maps, it comes up with an error. Something like "Save as blizzard certified? Will not be playable over battle.net (can cause 'unable to authenticate map error message')" If blizzard can do it, so can someone who can make a program to do it. I'm pretty sure that this would be extremely hard to modify. If such a program were ever invented, the creator would always have that little credit, that they were the original creator of the map, no matter what the text says anywhere else. No of course with everything new that comes out, there is something equally as powerful that will negate it, but it would be a great idea.

*HINT*FaRTy*HINT* :shifty:

I've edited Blizzard's maps a lot. Never had an issue, so I dunno what you're talking about. And even if that were the case, we obviously don't have the knowledge of how to do that. If we did, unprotection wouldn't be an issue.

Really? I just attempted to modify and save a map that blizzard created and it came up with an error in Scmdraft 2. It can still be saved. Anyways, I think that protection is useless... Also, what XGhozt said is also true for me as well. If I came up with some really neat idea or a way to better something, or whatever the case may be, I would love for others to copy me.



None.

Jun 22 2008, 10:58 pm Ultraviolet Post #14



Quote from Twitch
Unprotection
Simply because I find no good reason for protection other then to keep the noobs out.

Regardless of the reasons you find, someone else has reasons for protecting their map. Who are you to decide that it shouldn't be protected? It's not your creation, it's not your decision.

Quote from Brontobyte
Really? I just attempted to modify and save a map that blizzard created and it came up with an error in Scmdraft 2. It can still be saved. Anyways, I think that protection is useless... Also, what XGhozt said is also true for me as well. If I came up with some really neat idea or a way to better something, or whatever the case may be, I would love for others to copy me.

It may be true for you, but it's not true for everyone. As I said before, it's not your creation, so it's not for you to decide what should become of it.




Jun 22 2008, 11:01 pm Brontobyte Post #15



Well, I don't feel like quoting at the moment, but someone said ~XGhozt something about blizzard intended maps to be open sourced. This has to be valid. If they wanted them to be protected, they would have created something like StarForge has in the save feature. You can protect your map on save with the editor. Although this is obsolete now, this would have pointed in the direction that blizzard wants the map maker to have the ability to protect his/her map.



None.

Jun 22 2008, 11:04 pm Ultraviolet Post #16



Quote from name:NerdyTerdy
Quote from Jello-Jigglers
No protection.
1)people can easily unblock it.
2)if your map deserves notoriety, it will get it even if people try to steal it.
3)sc maps originally began unprotected, so that's the way Blizzard intended them to be.


Or maybe they just didn't have the foresight to see that it would be needed. You can't assume that was the intention. Did Blizzard originally intend for 4 pool to rape the shit out of everybody? No. That's why they fixed it later. Map making hasn't been given nearly as much attention by Blizzard as melee though. If it had been given as much attention I imagine that there would have been some big changes made.

Quote from Brontobyte
Well, I don't feel like quoting at the moment, but someone said ~XGhozt something about blizzard intended maps to be open sourced. This has to be valid. If they wanted them to be protected, they would have created something like StarForge has in the save feature. You can protect your map on save with the editor. Although this is obsolete now, this would have pointed in the direction that blizzard wants the map maker to have the ability to protect his/her map.

Did you bother reading my response?




Jun 22 2008, 11:08 pm Brontobyte Post #17



Quote from name:NerdyTerdy
Quote from name:NerdyTerdy
Quote from Jello-Jigglers
No protection.
1)people can easily unblock it.
2)if your map deserves notoriety, it will get it even if people try to steal it.
3)sc maps originally began unprotected, so that's the way Blizzard intended them to be.


Or maybe they just didn't have the foresight to see that it would be needed. You can't assume that was the intention. Did Blizzard originally intend for 4 pool to rape the shit out of everybody? No. That's why they fixed it later. Map making hasn't been given nearly as much attention by Blizzard as melee though. If it had been given as much attention I imagine that there would have been some big changes made.

Quote from Brontobyte
Well, I don't feel like quoting at the moment, but someone said ~XGhozt something about blizzard intended maps to be open sourced. This has to be valid. If they wanted them to be protected, they would have created something like StarForge has in the save feature. You can protect your map on save with the editor. Although this is obsolete now, this would have pointed in the direction that blizzard wants the map maker to have the ability to protect his/her map.

Did you bother reading my response?

Yes I did. :D "Or maybe they just didn't have the foresight to see that it would be needed." Well, they have seemed to not care. They are creating StarCraft 2 Map Editor which doesn't have a "built-in" map protector, so yeah. I think its fair to say that even with there new chance to fix the protection problem, they don't seem to care.



None.

Jun 22 2008, 11:10 pm Demented Shaman Post #18



ALL YOUR MAP ARE BELONG TO BLIZZARD.

YOU DON'T OWN SHIT. PROTECTION DOESN'T MATTER.



None.

Jun 22 2008, 11:12 pm Brontobyte Post #19



Quote from name:devilesk
ALL YOUR MAP ARE BELONG TO BLIZZARD.

YOU DON'T OWN SHIT. PROTECTION DOESN'T MATTER.

AH, something I can finally agree with you on devilesk. :D

Doesn't it even say something in the TOS when you first install Staredit (blizzards standard map editor) that the maps are open source? I'm not sure if it does or doesn't.



None.

Jun 22 2008, 11:15 pm XGhozt Post #20



I'm pretty sure any program which protects a map uses the same idea as blizzards protected & signed maps. While I agree with NerdyTerdy, the only problem is that, it really isn't "your" (as in the map creator) map, it's blizzards copyright. And I don't honestly see the point in protecting a map, other than to prevent people from using it as a whole in their name. So, the idea of cutting off the community from my perspective would defeat the purpose of creating it. Thus, protection just adds an extra layer from the following;

- Stealing Credits
- Rigging maps.
- Creating SpinOff's

Other than that, feel free to use my triggers, improve them, show me how you would use them. Ultimately, if its your idea in the first place, you probably did it better anyway. Imagine if the person who figured out how to create a light switch in game never shared that trigger? How many creative maps would we be less of? So you see, no gain, no loss.



None.

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[02:16 am]
Ultraviolet -- Suicidal Insanity
Suicidal Insanity shouted: http://photos.arlinghaus.org/Animals/Species/WesternJackdaw/2019.11.16-FSH_3770-QHD-%7BFA19D1D3-182C-4723-964D-C30A764A7D13%7D.jpg <- Its missing a speech bubble about SCR bad blizzard bad modding good 1.16 good
http://www.staredit.net/uploads/avatars/4811.png?312523688 pretty solid ;)
[02:14 am]
Ultraviolet -- That's supposed to be pr0nogo :P
[12:43 am]
MTiger156 -- Not sure why it takes an ultra-high resolution image of a bird to get that point across, but ok
[06:36 pm]
Suicidal Insanity -- fortheovermind
fortheovermind shouted: my turn rate bar from the Create panel is no longer there. my games are created with the default 12 and i can no longer modify it, what could be causing this?
Known patch bug
[06:07 pm]
Ultraviolet -- lifebot This version appears to be older than the version I already have downloaded (1.5). Why is this one being posted?
[06:03 pm]
Ultraviolet -- Zoan
Zoan shouted: MTiger156 lifebot woah, that's awesome! I'm too lazy right now to check, but does it work with Remastered or 1.1.16 only?
I haven't used it in the latest version of remastered, but I assume it still works. It definitely did before. It's pretty neat. Super fast & easy way to create a save/load system
[05:02 pm]
fortheovermind -- my turn rate bar from the Create panel is no longer there. my games are created with the default 12 and i can no longer modify it, what could be causing this?
[04:50 pm]
Zoan -- MTiger156
MTiger156 shouted: Also, here's a link to its actual description http://www.staredit.net/topic/17696/
lifebot woah, that's awesome! I'm too lazy right now to check, but does it work with Remastered or 1.1.16 only?
[04:18 pm]
Dem0n -- o nvm you're talking about SCDB, not the map
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