Staredit Network > Forums > General StarCraft > Topic: PSA: Host Reasonable Turn Rates
PSA: Host Reasonable Turn Rates
Jan 3 2019, 4:57 pm
By: jjf28  

Jan 3 2019, 4:57 pm jjf28 Post #1

Cartography Artisan

Turn rate is a neat little feature that most hosts seem not to understand - on a very basic level turn rate controls two items...

Command Response Time: how fast units respond to new commands (your unit affecting clicks and keypresses, e.g. you tell a unit to hold position, it will keep moving for a few pixels, then it will cease movement)
Latency-Based Lag: this type of lag feels as though everything is going a bit slower in a fairly consistent manner, e.g. workers take a few seconds longer to build than they should, a ling takes longer to run from point A to point B, someone cast a slow-time spell on the whole game

Higher Turn Rate = Faster Command Response Time; More likely to have Latency-Based Lag
Lower Turn Rate = Slower Command Response Time; Less likely to have Latency-Based Lag



Hosting Guidelines:

- In general/when unsure, use dynamic turn rate (put the slider all the way to the left)
- For games where micro is not important (e.g. desert strike) always use dynamic or a very low turn rate of 8-12
- For games where you expect some Latency-Based Lag no matter what, but micro is definitely moderately important, set a static turn rate of 10-12
- For games where your response time is critically important (e.g. snipers, bounds), but you don't know the players you'll have in game, set a static turn rate of 14-16.
- If you have a private lobby where you know the players, or you're willing to accept the lag, or you're willing to ruthlessly ban people based on their latency bars, host with 18-24TR.



Blizzard has not too long ago made it so that the latency bars in the lobby indicate the likeliness that a player will lag on different settings - I highly recommend you give this article a read-through: Lobby Latency Bars, though I've taken some excerpts below below... note that as a host you might not see what other players are seeing; you might see all green, but two players could still be at one bar with eachother:

On dynamic turn rate:
Quote
5 bars - the player should be able to play at TR 16 on low latency
4 bars - the player should be able to play at TR 12 on low latency
3 bars - the player should be able to play at TR 10 on high latency
2 bars - the player should be able to play at TR 8 on extra high latency
1 bar - the player cannot play at any TR on any latency

With a static turn rate:
Quote
5 bars - high confidence that this player can play at selected TR on low latency
4 bars - the player should be able to play at selected TR on low latency
3 bars - the player should be able to play at selected TR on high latency
2 bars - the player should be able to play at selected TR on extra high latency
1 bar - the player is unlikely to be able to play at selected TR, or has no connectivity to you

In additional to turn rate you have the in-game "Low Latency", "High Latency", and "Extra High Latency" settings, which are like the "big gear" on a bicycle, where turn rates are the "little gear". You can use these settings for additional control over the Command Response Time and Latency-Based Lag.



Notes on Lag

- Not all lag is Latency-Based Lag, a UMS map may be poorly designed using lots of location heavy conditions and heavyweight actions and cause lag on even the fastest computers, or a map may be well designed and someone has a crappy computer or has a bunch of other things open slowing down their computer; it is in this case that using the "Save Game" trick or "Lag Detection Triggers" can help you to identify a lagger. Historically there have also been "conflicts" between certain players that disallow them to play together with certain hosts without lag.
- Lag is very unlikely to be due to your upload/download bandwidth in the case of StarCraft, rather pay attention to your ping to something like google.com or specifically to other players, high ping (or high ping based on the host settings and the other players in game, rather), crappy computers, crappy routers/networking equipment, congested wifi airspaces, lossy networks, or poorly programmed game networking, are the primary causes of lag.



References

Actual Data on Turn Rate Frame Rate Ms
Lobby Latency Bars



Rs_yes-im4real - Clan Aura - jjf28.net84.net

Reached the top of StarCraft theory crafting 2:12 AM CST, August 2nd, 2014.

Jan 3 2019, 5:22 pm Lanthanide Post #2



Quote from jjf28
Historically there have also been "conflicts" between certain players that disallow them to play together with certain hosts without lag
To elaborate on this, what everyone in a game experiences is cripplingly grinding lag, where the game will run for a fraction of a second, followed by a pause of about 1 second, then more action etc.

The conflict appears to be some sort of IP adressing conflict between a pair of players in the game; unfortunately I don't know the specifics of what the conflict is, but it may be something like two players using ISPs that are doing some sort of carrier-grade NAT. It is also likely to be influenced by whether all players have open or closed TCP networking ports for StarCraft.

Although the precise cause is unclear, the symptom very much looks like player A is incorrectly receiving the game data packets intended for player B from at least one other player in the game, and so player A forwards the packets on to player B, thus doubling player B's effective latency, and because StarCraft requires everyone to be in sync, everyone suffers.

If either player A or B leave the game, the lag disappears. Players often associate this form of lag with whomever leaves the game first that alleviates the lag as being "the lagger", but it is actually the pair of players that is the problem. Especially degenerate cases may exist where there are three players affected, or two separate pairs of players.

I am not sure whether this type of lag still occurs in SCR or not.



None.

Jan 3 2019, 6:01 pm Ultraviolet Post #3



Thanks for posting this, I never really understood turn rate before.


Quote from Lanthanide
Quote from jjf28
Historically there have also been "conflicts" between certain players that disallow them to play together with certain hosts without lag
To elaborate on this, what everyone in a game experiences is cripplingly grinding lag, where the game will run for a fraction of a second, followed by a pause of about 1 second, then more action etc.

The conflict appears to be some sort of IP adressing conflict between a pair of players in the game; unfortunately I don't know the specifics of what the conflict is, but it may be something like two players using ISPs that are doing some sort of carrier-grade NAT. It is also likely to be influenced by whether all players have open or closed TCP networking ports for StarCraft.

Although the precise cause is unclear, the symptom very much looks like player A is incorrectly receiving the game data packets intended for player B from at least one other player in the game, and so player A forwards the packets on to player B, thus doubling player B's effective latency, and because StarCraft requires everyone to be in sync, everyone suffers.

If either player A or B leave the game, the lag disappears. Players often associate this form of lag with whomever leaves the game first that alleviates the lag as being "the lagger", but it is actually the pair of players that is the problem. Especially degenerate cases may exist where there are three players affected, or two separate pairs of players.

I am not sure whether this type of lag still occurs in SCR or not.

This type of lag is truly terrible. I remember one instance where a buddy and I simply couldn't play together publicly because of it :-(




Jan 8 2019, 12:50 pm Sato Post #4



Quote from Lanthanide
[quote=name:jjf28]
I am not sure whether this type of lag still occurs in SCR or not.

I can definitely confirm that "clashing" is still a thing post-Remastered launch. It happened just a couple of days ago, actually, we remade and cycled players out and eventually eliminated possibilities until figuring out it was a clash.

It's definitely not as common as it was pre-Remaster though, some of the changes to netcode have addressed and improved the issue I'd assume


as for the original post, it's a good write-up. It's unfortunate that the vast, vast majority of players on Battle.net do not even know what this forum is, let alone would actually read the post.. it would go a long way toward resolving the problem, though.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 8 2019, 12:57 pm by Sato.



None.

Jan 8 2019, 1:45 pm jjf28 Post #5

Cartography Artisan

Quote from Sato
It's unfortunate that the vast, vast majority of players on Battle.net do not even know what this forum is, let alone would actually read the post.. it would go a long way toward resolving the problem, though.

Mm, I'm a big fan of telling hosts that their choice of turn rate is the reason the game is lagging - now I have a single article to refer them to to explain it (you can copy links in lobbies); so I can at least make my little map circles better :)



Rs_yes-im4real - Clan Aura - jjf28.net84.net

Reached the top of StarCraft theory crafting 2:12 AM CST, August 2nd, 2014.

Options
  Back to forum
Please log in to reply to this topic or to report it.
Members in this topic: None.
[04:37 am]
Dem0n -- Topic names are always truncated in the box and there's no reason for the portal news boxes to be so large.
[04:36 am]
Dem0n -- ayy Roy or someone, expand the latest post/productions box width to be 350px
[02:23 am]
Pr0nogo -- even with that, doesn't work
[02:22 am]
Pr0nogo -- trigedit won't compile or throw errors, i'll try with the custom aiscript files imported to the scmd mpq
[02:17 am]
Pr0nogo -- Suicidal Insanity
Suicidal Insanity shouted: Pr0nogo Ahh - I knew you asked then you never talked about it again, so I assumed it worked., But the code looks like it would throw an error.
I'll try this now and see what happens
[02:16 am]
Pr0nogo -- extinguished
[02:00 am]
Lanthanide -- Suicidal Insanity
Suicidal Insanity shouted: Why do I always quote when I want to whisper? :X
why are you whispering all the time? talking smack behind people's back? perhaps if you can't say what you want to say in public, you shouldn't say it at all
[01:15 am]
O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- tbf they are tiny tiny icons
[06:16 pm]
Suicidal Insanity -- :P
[05:59 pm]
Dem0n -- Well it seems like you're pressing the wrong button.
Please log in to shout.


Members Online: Corbo, Roy, KrayZee, Dem0n, hassanswalter, Lost_Angel