Ok, BlackParade, let me summarize what you're trying to say in a better way.

1. You have bad reasons
2. Why you talking if you have no say?
3. He's talking about TS2 skill, as per putting the comment after the A)
4. Don't disrespect pros when you aren't one, it won't make you look good
5. Naw, you weren't the best. REPLAYS OR GTFO


Ok, back to you Jack.
I think we've qualified ourselves enough, but you haven't. Please, stop impeding progress. Stick to SD if you want to argue. If you don't even play this game why do you insist on caring? Same goes to you Sacrieur, stick to SD, this isn't "Lolz let's see who has better logikz".

How many times do people have to say this:

Why is anyone here talking if they have no say?
OK then ninja is good at TS2 according to BlackParade. Cool. Still doesn't make him qualified to talk about map design, only map balance at best.
I had the highest kills/death ratio of anyone, played the most games, played 5v1 and won regularly (ok maybe I was abusing a little bit in those games ), if I was on a team and playing seriously it would almost always mean a win. Not to say there aren't better players now, not to say I'm some prodigy, just at that time in TS2 when I actually played I was the best. Not really saying much, because not many people played then. I don't know if many play now either, so it may mean not much for anyone to be the best now too.
[/quote]
I care because I put a lot of hours into both TS1 and TS2 and I would like to see it do well and not be a bad map, it's not in a great place at the moment but it has a lot of potential. Turning it into TS1 but without a gateway for spells won't fix things, and no matter how many times you say you aren't asking for the exact same game, most of the time the things that people are suggesting would make it the exact same game. Not all the time, granted, but most of the time in the last month or two that's what I've seen in this thread.

Okay time to debunk all this bullshit, because all I have ever from you is absolute filth and lies. Who the hell are you? The only time anyone has ever heard of you in regards to TS is because of your lurking on SEN, don't give that a doubt for a second. You were some random with pub level skill and all I have seen you talk about is some kind of "STRATEGY" for the lowest skill ceiling hero in the game with just pub delusions. No Mutant (which i will remind you is the LOW TIER AT TOP LEVEL PLAY, aka above the bronze equivalent you are a part of) does NOT beat Assault, in any form way or type of grandeur. You think otherwise, that's strike one on your already tarnished record you have. Proper place web = free hits for assault while ling is useless to retaliate and no L2. "BUT ICEMAN WHAT ABOUT KRAZY KLURKARZ???!" Assault gets into the dropship and receives no damage, couple that in with easy build of armor for a hero that farms twice as fast as mutant and the flexibility of having easily high Hp. Mutant L4s? HE ENDS UP STUNNED AFTER THE EFFECT ENDS AND IS TRAPPED. There is NO way for ANY type of ling (from bronze level all the way up to pub level!) to beat an adept Assault. Got the lesson? Good.


"Jack's logic is sound. Just because you're a good player doesn't mean you're a good game designer. The vice versa is also true."

Now that the formalities are out the way, time to pick apart these flimsy ideals. I can pick up compensating 'logic' a mile away, and let's just say you may as well be on the moon and it will make no difference. Not everything is black and goddam white. Being a good player MAY not necessarily mean you are automatically good at game design, but fuck it, the correlation is goddam strong. Now let's point out more correlation. The entire TS1 Pro Scene with myself included has regarded Temple Siege 2 a developers failure, not just as a sequel but also as a map itself. And let's ask ourselves this, why could this be?

Was there any actual Pro feedback taken in the development = Nope
Was Jack[RCDF, someone who was absolute trash at TS1 involved? = Check

Now we got a trash player, trash developing a game and it ended up a complete failure. It's not coincidence it's direct correlation. Remove the veil.

You mad bro? 1v1 mutant vs assault, which is still basically irrelevant for balance purposes because it's a team game, is favoured mutant. Want to come test it with me on iccup?
I had next to no input at all in TS2. Now who's lying? Also, the entire TS1 pro scene is not you ninjaotis and whomever else is actually around, because I don't recognize anyone else from that time. Also, you don't know what feedback we had from top players, nor do you have any idea how much thought and effort went into the development, nor do you have ANY clue whatsoever how to do game design. If you do? Go make your TS1 classic remake. Put your money where your mouth is and do something instead of flaming me for something I didn't do. Because guess what? I did a small amount of art for TS2 and nothing else except for helping to build the community.

You should do this, 1v1. Whoever loses admits they don't know what they're talking about and then never posts in the thread again. The ultimate stakes, winner takes all.

I'd be for it, as long as it's on iCCup using iCCup antihack launcher and LAN latency, Best of 3. Would be nice if the other person would stream it because I'd stream it too then, make a grudgematch of it

Maybe we should focus on the actions we should take.

Everyone seems to agree that TS2 is not as fun as TS1. I still play on USEast (op tsc) with a regular community of about 30 people, even though my computer can easily handle SC2.

So since we all care enough to put energy into discussion and argument, let's decide what to do about it. The choices that seem apparent to me are:

1. An update of luzz's map (if he's willing).
2. A fork of luzz's map (if he's willing).
3. A new project.

Whatever we decide, we should discuss the specific features (down to the individual abilities, mechanics, and counterplays) we would like to see and how to compose them into a coherent, fun game.

If anyone of you haven't noticed, I had halted production of the map because my computer was too slow (It took around 5 minutes to save the map... And even longer to change things). However, I just got 16GB of ram as opposed to the 2 that I had previously so I should be set for a while.

Also to those who are mad at my decision making on spells and such I am sorry, and I will do my best to remedy the situation. Everything in this game should have a purpose. If armor seems too weak at the moment then I believe a buff should be in order, or a nerf to particular spells (Not in damage, but in # of attacks).

I hope I can compromise well enough to please most of you, but remember its just a compromise, you may not get exactly what you want.

~Luzz

Please no dodge!

I rarely bother with such a "no leads" mappers production. Althought I'll do an exeption for this one.

First: The original concept of Temple Siege was a good idea, althought when the project began, there was almost no common knowledges on full project using EUDs. Temple Siege 1 is, in my view a total failure map cuz of the lack of potential Starcraft1 mapping offered back then. Of course, people are stupid enough to say "TS1 > TS2" but most are ignorant that has no clue what they're talking about. I would say that, the 2 maps are completly different since TS2 is what TS1 was meant to look like. TS1 is basicly just a Micro game that offer tons of block potential from spells (due to lack of options with regular triggers). Temple Siege 2 offer many controls that couldn't exist, even with EUDs on Starcraft1. With these new controls *such as reaper's leap, or burrows moving, etc* the heroes gain more potential.

Second: Tons of works have been applied to Temple Siege 1 that is still missing on Temple Siege 2. Also for TS2's group, it's seriously a messed up one. There are no leads, just couple of people working solo (or in a small groups) making different version of the map. It's a never ending story that been going for so long. Yes Temple Siege 2 need fixes, I do agree with that, but there are some great improovement. As a matter of "fun". Temple Siege 2 has less no-life playing over 100 games a day bitching all over the place (Yes, this is what DoTa style is). It asks more controls, offers more options of playing and most important, less "pro farming this crappy game, which allow potential players joining the group.

Last: Fighting like children on a thread won't help at all. Current group of TS2 mappers have plenty of things to fight with right now to have to deal with bunch of children fighting on their thread. In such games, there are no "#1 player", sorry to tell you. What make someone be better isn't related to how many hours he spent in front of his computer reading the stats and the forum to learn how to play this. I've seen many nobodies raping "I'm the best" kind of player just because they had control of their unit. For sure, knowing the map, and being able to calculate every future damage done by snipe or anything helps, but overall TS2 require more control skills.

I just hope the project won't fall because of some no leads issues because Temple Siege 2 is surely something that is worthy to continue. Short tips for who ever feel working on this: focus on heroes for now. Balancing and such is no big deal at this point. You'll fight for a +1 or -1 all the way long. Make more heroes and then, it'll be easier to balance the group (Similar to what LoL did basicly). The choice of heroes will balance the hero by itself, just depending who pick what, cuz we'll agree that, for now, who ever have a good assassin and a good sniper/archer in the same group have almost already won at beginning.


PS: it's totally normal that none of you have a clue who I am, I do not use/share my identity often, just to friends (that can keep it shut, as well). It's no use to ask me who I am nor calling me "noob" or stupid because I published what alot of people doesn't seem to be able to see. This thread subject is "Temple Siege 2". Try not to get it closed cuz of "way to many kids shit talking / fighting like morons" thread. Thanks for your cooperation.

To continue this project, I suggest you to check out who made the most progress with heroes. Till you reach 15-20 heroes, you shouldn't bother much with balance. If you need ideas for heroes options, I think it would be nice to ask but I think more options of every kind would be nice. More tank options (slow movement heavy tank by example), more morphing options (range/melee morphed *some kind of shapeshifter/hunter*), more mages options (AoE pricks with lower dmg, of course they would need some strong spell at some point, but you get the point), etc. I also think that day/night should last bit longer, like a min each.

Hope to see some development within Temple Siege 2, since it's a worthy map.

I'm currently working on Bandit, and quite a few people have seen me play him (For some testing and just to make sure he is actually viable as a hero in game). He doesn't have a l3 or l4 yet, and I won't have time to work on him until Sunday (Going on a hiking trip with some friends), but he is pretty far along.

My goal with heroes is to offer a different style of play with each one, so that everyone can play their type of hero.

Hope you guys like Bandit!

~Luzz

Does he have the same crazy OP damage he had in sc1?

No. He actually doesn't deal that much damage unless he can trap you for an extended period of time, and he is very good at trapping, he just can't do it for very long because enemies can just force his units away. Anyhow, he was pretty fun to play, and when the trap did work it was very rewarding, when it didn't, I normally died xD high risk high reward?

You can ask people on TS2. I know quite a few of them saw me play him, and I asked them for their thoughts on his current ability set.

Hello, does anyone still play ts on broodwar? I took (another) break and it seems pretty unactive now .
PS: Ninjaotis, did you play ts wayyy before? I remember someone on my list with the name Ninja, we were pretty good friends

This looks real awesome a great custom map for sc2 how long Are You on balance and fixes?

I love the option to play against Ai to learn the map i gotta try it out good job Guys.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Oct 18 2019, 1:48 pm by GGmano.