Staredit Network > Forums > SC2 Custom Maps > Topic: Temple Siege 2
Temple Siege 2
Dec 17 2011, 5:54 pm
By: Ahli  

Jul 19 2013, 9:09 pm NinjaOtis Post #441



Quote from Sacrieur
The characters are all balanced and the gameplay is pretty fast paced. Making mountains out of molehills, this bunch is.
No, they aren't. No, we aren't.

Quote from Azrael
No, I don't think even the most die-hard fans would agree with that.
I agree with you.

Quote
I'm fairly sure you have little to no experience actually playing this, so I'm not sure why you'd gloss over the multitude of legitimate concerns people are discussing and make a vague statement that doesn't really pertain to the map or the current development at all.
You can be more than fairly sure after you read my comments further down.

Quote from Sacrieur

Not at all, I've extensively played ts2.
Are you sure?

Quote
When I brought up balance issues with individual match-ups the answer was a resounding, "It's a team game, deal with it." I insisted that there should only be soft counters but the hardcore TS crowd said they wanted to preserve the original gameplay (Mech vs. Medic). Now they're complaining about hard counters? I am having trouble understanding this line of flip-flopping.
First off, please give quotes for evidence. Preserving the original game style is what would make this game a sequel, not a spin-off. Designing heroes correctly from the start will make balancing easier; counters will naturally fall into place.

Quote
There are some good ideas to improve gameplay, but it's not like the game is broken in its current state (mutant l3 is bit ridiculous, but the game isn't falling apart at the seams because everyone is picking mutant).
It is broken in its current state. Mutant is average, to below average. It's pretty easily killed. I never thought l3 was ridiculous, it's easy to dodge and not overly strong.

Quote
There are plenty of utility spells. Mutant l1 and l4 (doesn't deal direct damage), Warrior l1 and l4, Assault's vanilla l1, l2, and l4, LM's l3, and there are plenty more. Also, most l0s are utility only.
Please explain how l4 doesn't deal direct damage? Are you implying it's used for escape only? NV cost 30 mana, and I've never seen or read the justification for doing this. As for assault, I'd argue it's the strongest standalone character in this game right now, but there are definitely some other contenders.
If you're reading this Azreal, you will be happy to know that you are right about him having limited experience, as assault's l4 has been switched with l3 for a while. Credibility down the drain. Inventions of interesting and new L0's seem to have been more focused on than core spell-sets for heroes.

---

Quote from Sacrieur
I'm not saying there shouldn't be more utility. There definitely needs to be in order to add depth to the game, but the idea that almost every spell deals damage is plain wrong.
I agree with you here. You're right about it adding depth, but the game doesn't currently have that much depth as is.

Quote
I'm pretty sure the only l0 that actually deals damage is Dark Mage's spell.
DM's L0 is almost the same as TS1's DM L2, except it's single target with over 30 second cooldown. DM is a pretty dry unit, removing DA and changing spell set has changed the hero entirely.

Quote
And even for spells that deal damage, you'll find that most have utility purposes as well as a side effect or deal only minor damage, with the main effect being utility (warrior's l2, assault's vortex)
Warrior's L2 does a lot of damage if you stand next to stone zealots. It's also a double edged sword because you basically commit to trapping yourself and letting 5 others rape you if you miss (or even if you hit). Vortex scales with upgrades. Everything scales with upgrades... which I consider a mistake.

Quote
I believe items that are bought with minerals can add utility and solve the hard countering problem (like an AA missile). It's up to you guys whether or not you decide to implement this, since it shies away from core TS, but it would be nothing but beneficial to gameplay.
Never items, ever. Potions maybe, but never items. It would probably be everything but beneficial to add items. TS2 needs to be a sequel not a spin-off. Even if potions were added in the future, they would need to be expensive but worth it. Earlier in the thread there is a link that directs you to original ideas relating to potions. And when you mentioned AA, the majority of spells can already deal damage to air units, including all of LM's spells, DT decap, DM.. ridiculous if you ask me.

Quote
I've suggested spell changes in the past that would have created more utility/synergy. But those were rejected, which is fine. Really it only added my own flavor to the game (hard counters are part of the game, deal with it sort of thing). That's fine really, I'm not trying to push anything on the developers if it's merely my opinion how things should be.
Developers although they have a great amount of say, don't always know what's best for the community.


Quote
I don't really know why you're bashing the strength of ts1 summy though. He really was a force to be reckoned with and a pure terror. Sure you can go reaver but that's not an instant win without sufficient backup. With summy it rarely ever was where he was stick with everyone else in exp. Either you had mech or some other strong anti-summy character or an extremely skilled player who could deal with him and keep him underfed or he was overfed and a death sentence to most characters. Except you know, warrior, lm, or mutant who could snap summy back so hard it'll leave the player's head spinning. But 1v1 summy had the upperhand with someone who could do multipronged attacks. Once the other guy is on the defensive the game is yours.
He is strong, no doubt, but he is easily beaten as you pointed out. Mech(Ling,War)+Rine+Bat = easy game. 1v1 summoner is a joke, he always loses. But I'm not here to explain TS1.

Quote
You know with mutant's l4 he can also sit on the temple and guard pretty ruthlessly. I enjoy these little synergies. Teamwork is and should be rewarded. This IS the impression that I get from both the devs and the community. It seems silly to attack it. I do hope you also realize that Medic's l4 to consistently heal l4 Mutant is going to cost massive amounts of mana. It's no different than volt staying in l4 form for extended periods of time, although perhaps worse because of the required teamwork component.

Medics l4 is HP regen for a period of time, not a one time deal. A medic with 600 mana can use L4 indiscriminately. Volt L4 is time based, not hp based. I'm not bashing the synergy of units, I'm criticizing the inconsistency of gameplay between TS1 and TS2. The current players who play TS2 have their heads up their asses, they aren't knowledgeable.

@Luzz
You aren't in this alone, don't assume full responsibility for creating heroes and spells. This isn't a dictatorship it's a democracy. No one wants new heroes, they want better heroes.
Multiple people have provided input, including myself... We have offered to help re-organize the game. Adding more to an already flawed hero pool/game won't help fix the situation.
It's not up to what you want, it's up to what the community needs. The current hero pool is flawed, denial won't help change that, and neither will backroom deals.

I am also not sure what the big deal about not letting others see the map. Can't this be done without granting access to make changes? People want to learn why the game is what it is now and how to approach fixing it.



None.

Jul 19 2013, 9:18 pm BlackParade Post #442



@Sac
Nigga you must be on bath salts if you think this is remotely balanced.

@NinjaOtis
Well, my nigga,
Changes won't happen because:
A) Laziness
B) No money
C) Time
D) Pride
E) Mappers get defensive when you call their maps broken

Hell I'd even help.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 19 2013, 9:27 pm by BlackParade.



None.

Jul 19 2013, 10:23 pm Sacrieur Post #443

Still Napping

Quote from NinjaOtis
First off, please give quotes for evidence. Preserving the original game style is what would make this game a sequel, not a spin-off. Designing heroes correctly from the start will make balancing easier; counters will naturally fall into place.

I think it was a shoutbox or sc2 in game discussion. Not something you were apart of.


Quote
Mutant is average, to below average. It's pretty easily killed. I never thought l3 was ridiculous, it's easy to dodge and not overly strong.

He's average. And his l3 is quite strong because it can be stacked three times. It's an easy 600-800 damage for 90 mana mid game if you can aim it right.


Quote
Please explain how l4 doesn't deal direct damage? Are you implying it's used for escape only?

The actual spell is transformation, it doesn't deal any damage directly. It's the transformed unit that has increased ability to deal damage.


Quote
NV cost 30 mana, and I've never seen or read the justification for doing this. As for assault, I'd argue it's the strongest standalone character in this game right now, but there are definitely some other contenders.

NV is more used as a way of slowing down and entrapping creeps/enemy heroes than dealing damage. That's why it's typically combined with an l2. And I agree, it's very strong standalone, but I feel it's not terribly overpowered.


Quote
If you're reading this Azreal, you will be happy to know that you are right about him having limited experience, as assault's l4 has been switched with l3 for a while. Credibility down the drain. Inventions of interesting and new L0's seem to have been more focused on than core spell-sets for heroes.

Just a minor mistake in my memory. The last I played was only a few days ago or so.

---

Quote
Warrior's L2 does a lot of damage if you stand next to stone zealots. It's also a double edged sword because you basically commit to trapping yourself and letting 5 others rape you if you miss (or even if you hit). Vortex scales with upgrades. Everything scales with upgrades... which I consider a mistake.

Oh no, by all means I've suggested this in the past.


Quote
Never items, ever. Potions maybe, but never items. It would probably be everything but beneficial to add items. TS2 needs to be a sequel not a spin-off. Even if potions were added in the future, they would need to be expensive but worth it. Earlier in the thread there is a link that directs you to original ideas relating to potions. And when you mentioned AA, the majority of spells can already deal damage to air units, including all of LM's spells, DT decap, DM.. ridiculous if you ask me.

I recall reading earlier that there was an AA problem.


Quote
Developers although they have a great amount of say, don't always know what's best for the community.

Nor the community necessarily knows what's best for the game. Not that the suggestions here are a good representation of the community; it's a bad argument when your sample size is as small as only a handful of people. It's especially bad when you're attacking other people in the community who seem to not agree for you. This gives the impression that the community isn't some congruous entity demanding changes, but merely individual player's opinions into how things should be done. You might be wrong, you might be right, but ultimately you're going to have to approach it in a manner with good reasoning and perhaps evidence to back your suggestions.


Quote
Medics l4 is HP regen for a period of time, not a one time deal.

Yes good catch, the effect lasts 25 seconds. I thought it was for a shorter amount of time.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jul 19 2013, 10:32 pm by Sacrieur.



None.

Jul 20 2013, 2:51 am luzz Post #444



I believe this is where a split in the project comes into play. If Otis and Black parade would like to remake the current hero pool I will have no problem giving them the map and helping occasionally. I can also teach you how to edit all hero values to get you started. However, I would like to stick with the TS2 project while you guys make the TS:C edition. Like I said I will help, but most of the work will be up to you.



None.

Jul 20 2013, 2:58 am LoveLess Post #445

Let me show you how to hump without making love.

Quote from luzz
I believe this is where a split in the project comes into play. If Otis and Black parade would like to remake the current hero pool I will have no problem giving them the map and helping occasionally. I can also teach you how to edit all hero values to get you started. However, I would like to stick with the TS2 project while you guys make the TS:C edition. Like I said I will help, but most of the work will be up to you.
Eh, I'll help them out for quality assurance purposes.



None.

Jul 28 2013, 1:13 am HighGuyInBankai Post #446



Quote from Sacrieur
luzz go take a vacation :P

The characters are all balanced and the gameplay is pretty fast paced. Making mountains out of molehills, this bunch is.

Just stop right there.

Otis already called you out but, as did Blackparade. Saying statements like this that are blatantly false and coddling are just not helping anything. Take off the praise-anything glasses. This game is a disaster. If you really feel this game is up to snuff then I would suggest you just stop posting, many would disagree with you. People in the community are are really trying to fix the game, and are serious about doing so.

Furthermore, on top of this dishonest statement of yours, you go on to say that summoner is imbalanced and weak. Not only are you writing dishonest statements full of blind-praise, you are contradicting yourself as well. Furthermore Otis is a TS vet, hands down. This mother****** has played his dues, played with pro's, taught by pros, and held his own against pros (And that includes tournament pros). I watched him go from 'newbie' to 'overpowered' personally, so when he speaks he is usually saying some shit. On the other hand Sacreuir, I only remember you playing TS1 towards the tail end of the BW life-cycle, mainly with your SEN pals.

I kindly suggest you listen to those who have had exposure to the pro scene and played with pro's (Otis, Fashioned, CAFG and others). Anybody who knows anyone in the TS scene knows you are pretty much a random, who I might add in the past has advocated poor ideas and strategy to boot in regards to TS1. Now you are propagating that trend here.

One of the problems I have had, and others, with TS1 board was the constant praise for ideas that were poor in quality or just plain bad usually coming from a select crowd, usually friends backing friends. Same with TS1 game strategy. I politely ask if you feel this is a great game, then you should just stop posting and let others hash this out. Thank you.

On Topic:

We really Need somebody like Moose and CAFG to take this over in another direction. You are working on another hero yet the original heroes are just flat out unbalanced and all DPS'ers. Again I kept reiterating this point: Most heroes were not flat out DPS'ers, or they had some form of utility. Again, why is assault a DPS'er now? Why is Medic a DPS'er now? Another thing is you need to figure out how Armor is going to work in this version because as it stands, its useless as tits on an ant. Just bring the game back to its roots and fundamentals, this outing has been a disaster.

The Glaring Problems
- Assimilators are a joke. Return them to Fixed income.
- Strategic points on map are gone due to change in geography of the game.
- Utility has been ran roughshod over in favor of burst game play on heroes.
- Hard counters, hero balance, and spell mechanics are poorly in sync.
- Original Heroes are either gutted completely, changed without reason, or batshit overpowered (summoner = Shit, DM = shell of her formerself, Assault/Volt = God Mode On)
- Spell Synchronization: Example, why even bother with the Dropship on Assault when he is so fast and can leap over things and that ridiculous L1 for crowd control? Plus the mine slows
- Exposed Assimilators and Hero interaction with assimilators (Assault was shitty vs Assimilators in TS1, a price he payed for his mobility. High Mobility and Kills Assims in 2 seconds!)
- Elephant in the room: This game was not designed for 5v5. Period. Revert it to 3v3, and the geography back.
- Temple area and gates feel cluttered.
- Bring back damage types for auto attacks and certain spells. Everyone should not damage everyone equally, helps with hard counters and balance.
- Please bring back spawn options, seriously, it added another layer of strategy and depth to the game. It also gave you options if you were hard countered, but your counter was weak to spawn.
- Let's all come clean here, there are definitely issues that people are split over but one thing for sure is: Everyone knows summoner is a piece of shit. Revert him. (Except for Jack, people just don't know how to play. Remember?)

Upgrades

- Something, and I mean SOMETHING has to be done about armor. It was CORE in TS1. Core goddamn it. Honestly I have no ideas on how but I'm thinking maybe a %Based system (for Now). There is NO excuse for not doing something about armor since it was so essential to TS1 if you were not playing against idiots. Armor is integral to TS1 game play, to shrug your shoulders to armor dilemma in this version is blasphemy. (MOUNTAINS OUTTA MOLEHILLS RIGHT BRO!?)

- I think the upgrade system needs some fine tuning. To add depth give every hero different upgrade paths. Or maybe even every hero can separately upgrade each individual spell, then at an arbitrary spell upgrade level (lets say 5 for example sake) you can invest minerals into one of two effects, we'll call them perks. Not both can be upgraded however.
In my opinion should be something like this:

Example
Assault:
->Level 1:
Flashbang: Toss a grenade for AoE Mana Drain + Slow. Invest minerals every level to upgrade the Mana Drain + Slow time.
@Spell Level 5: Skill Perks.
Toss Proficiency: Faster toss and projectile time. (100 minerals)
-OR-
Explosive Proficiency: Bigger nade AoE effect. (100 Minerals)

Strategic Depth? Check.
Player Options? Check.
Simple? Check.
Uniqueness? Check.
Streamlining? Check.
Customization? Check.
FlyGuy is Pro AND God? Dub Check. HOE.

Notes: Mineral values can be changed accordingly. Perk Mineral Cost will be higher with the spell level. I just thought of two per spell. But three per spell would probably be optimal and even create more expansive strategy and depth, catering to player style and in-game situations. Maybe you don't even spend Minerals for perks but 'Levels' to upgrade them. Like two levels to acquire a perk for a skill. Four levels for ultimate skill perks. More food for thought is maybe you can acquire both perks, but when you buy one perk for a skill the other perks skill cost goes up. So you buy "Skill Perk 1" for two levels, and "Skill Perk 2's" cost goes up to eight.

Call them 'Skill Perks' , spell perks sounds stupid like some medieval fantasy shit. I guess 'Spell Perks' would be applicable to LM, DM, and Medic.

Other Problem
Another problem is many of the TS one pro's are gone. So many randoms from TS1 are here, in addition this board is infused with the crowd who thinks this game is great and weren't around for the complete cycle of TS1. Not to mention all the coddling praise and plain stupid suggestions that have been suggestions. It pains me to see the game reduced to this pile of garbage.

Final Thoughts
Get on your job. HOE.

Post has been edited 9 time(s), last time on Jul 28 2013, 3:30 am by HighGuyInBankai.



None.

Jul 28 2013, 3:23 am Ahli Post #447

I do stuff and thingies... Try widening and reducing the number of small nooks and crannies to correct the problem.

Quote from HighGuyInBankai
- Something, and I mean SOMETHING has to be done about armor. It was CORE in TS1. Core goddamn it. Honestly I have no ideas on how but I'm thinking maybe a %Based system (for Now). There is NO excuse for not doing something about armor since it was so essential to TS1 if you were not playing against idiots. Armor is integral to TS1 game play, to shrug your shoulders to armor dilemma in this version is blasphemy. (MOUNTAINS OUTTA MOLEHILLS RIGHT BRO!?)
Due to SC2's current limitations there is no easy way to make armor more effective vs heroes. The only thing that is currently possible would be making armor reduce more points of damage for a damage effect. The only other option would be to trigger all damage... but that would be another big aspect of the game that would eat performance.

Blizzard might be working on something to make percentage based armor possible (like wc3). At least one developer hinted that they work on bringing back a few wc3 features. Therefore, I would wait until Blizzard releases whatever they are working on in a major patch.




Jul 28 2013, 3:52 am luzz Post #448



I like how you talk about core mechanics of play... And then suggest things that are entirely different from what tS1 stood for... By the way, your "skill tree" with perks is not simple and would add yet more things for players to understand upon entering the game. At least I couldn't even understand it and you were trying to explain it, I can't even imagine how some new player would feel playing an entirely different game and then you go and add perks on top of each skill and some of them have 3? Yeah... Players would get bored of reading that really fast, I know I do. The only reason we have tooltips at this point is to give the player some numbers to work off of if they want to plan an attack against a low HP opponent. Spells should be relatively easy to understand once they have been used once or twice.

Oh an by the way... If you get armor against assault or medic (I had no idea medic was a DPS'er) then they are screwed... 1 armor point takes away 2 damage and armor costs less than damage. Easy to keep up with. Especially against medic. Of course skill should always be taken into account. A micro god on reaper will obviously own most melee enemies, but the assault melts just as fast as he dealt damage. If people attacked me I would immediately have to run away and only get like 2 shots off. Also, assault falls off majorly end game when everyone has teleports and long range abilities with Ultis that grant different forms and such. So all in all... Armor is still useful... Assault may be able to dps at levels 1-5 but sucks terribly at it in team fights and can only do it against melee enemies in a situation where the enemy can't kill him from a distance.

I do agree with the dropship ability tho, I feel the ability would be better represented by another hero. If you can give us a suggestion that does not suck (According to you) I will gladly make it.

~Luzz



None.

Jul 28 2013, 6:52 am NinjaOtis Post #449



Quote from HighGuyInBankai

The Glaring Problems
- Assimilators are a joke. Return them to Fixed income.
- Strategic points on map are gone due to change in geography of the game.
- Utility has been ran roughshod over in favor of burst game play on heroes.
- Hard counters, hero balance, and spell mechanics are poorly in sync.
- Original Heroes are either gutted completely, changed without reason, or batshit overpowered (summoner = Shit, DM = shell of her formerself, Assault/Volt = God Mode On)
- Spell Synchronization: Example, why even bother with the Dropship on Assault when he is so fast and can leap over things and that ridiculous L1 for crowd control? Plus the mine slows
- Exposed Assimilators and Hero interaction with assimilators (Assault was shitty vs Assimilators in TS1, a price he payed for his mobility. High Mobility and Kills Assims in 2 seconds!)
- Elephant in the room: This game was not designed for 5v5. Period. Revert it to 3v3, and the geography back.
- Temple area and gates feel cluttered.
- Bring back damage types for auto attacks and certain spells. Everyone should not damage everyone equally, helps with hard counters and balance.
- Please bring back spawn options, seriously, it added another layer of strategy and depth to the game. It also gave you options if you were hard countered, but your counter was weak to spawn.
- Let's all come clean here, there are definitely issues that people are split over but one thing for sure is: Everyone knows summoner is a piece of shit. Revert him. (Except for Jack, people just don't know how to play. Remember?)

Upgrades

- Something, and I mean SOMETHING has to be done about armor. It was CORE in TS1. Core goddamn it. Honestly I have no ideas on how but I'm thinking maybe a %Based system (for Now). There is NO excuse for not doing something about armor since it was so essential to TS1 if you were not playing against idiots. Armor is integral to TS1 game play, to shrug your shoulders to armor dilemma in this version is blasphemy. (MOUNTAINS OUTTA MOLEHILLS RIGHT BRO!?)

- I think the upgrade system needs some fine tuning. To add depth give every hero different upgrade paths. Or maybe even every hero can separately upgrade each individual spell, then at an arbitrary spell upgrade level (lets say 5 for example sake) you can invest minerals into one of two effects, we'll call them perks. Not both can be upgraded however.
In my opinion should be something like this:

Example
Assault:
->Level 1:
Flashbang: Toss a grenade for AoE Mana Drain + Slow. Invest minerals every level to upgrade the Mana Drain + Slow time.
@Spell Level 5: Skill Perks.
Toss Proficiency: Faster toss and projectile time. (100 minerals)
-OR-
Explosive Proficiency: Bigger nade AoE effect. (100 Minerals)

Strategic Depth? Check.
Player Options? Check.
Simple? Check.
Uniqueness? Check.
Streamlining? Check.
Customization? Check.
FlyGuy is Pro AND God? Dub Check. HOE.

Notes: Mineral values can be changed accordingly. Perk Mineral Cost will be higher with the spell level. I just thought of two per spell. But three per spell would probably be optimal and even create more expansive strategy and depth, catering to player style and in-game situations. Maybe you don't even spend Minerals for perks but 'Levels' to upgrade them. Like two levels to acquire a perk for a skill. Four levels for ultimate skill perks. More food for thought is maybe you can acquire both perks, but when you buy one perk for a skill the other perks skill cost goes up. So you buy "Skill Perk 1" for two levels, and "Skill Perk 2's" cost goes up to eight.

Call them 'Skill Perks' , spell perks sounds stupid like some medieval fantasy shit. I guess 'Spell Perks' would be applicable to LM, DM, and Medic.

Other Problem
Another problem is many of the TS one pro's are gone. So many randoms from TS1 are here, in addition this board is infused with the crowd who thinks this game is great and weren't around for the complete cycle of TS1. Not to mention all the coddling praise and plain stupid suggestions that have been suggestions. It pains me to see the game reduced to this pile of garbage.

Final Thoughts
Get on your job. HOE.


Quote from Ahli
Blizzard might be working on something to make percentage based armor possible (like wc3). At least one developer hinted that they work on bringing back a few wc3 features. Therefore, I would wait until Blizzard releases whatever they are working on in a major patch.

If I'm not mistaken there are already games out there with percent based damage reduction. STD for example.

Quote from luzz
I like how you talk about core mechanics of play... And then suggest things that are entirely different from what tS1 stood for... By the way, your "skill tree" with perks is not simple and would add yet more things for players to understand upon entering the game. At least I couldn't even understand it and you were trying to explain it, I can't even imagine how some new player would feel playing an entirely different game and then you go and add perks on top of each skill and some of them have 3? Yeah... Players would get bored of reading that really fast, I know I do. The only reason we have tooltips at this point is to give the player some numbers to work off of if they want to plan an attack against a low HP opponent. Spells should be relatively easy to understand once they have been used once or twice.

What he is doing is opening a door for new feel, while still holding on to the old feel. He's compromising. He sees that you want to innovate the game and is showing you a possibility for doing so effectively while remaining simple.

Quote
Strategic Depth? Check.
Player Options? Check.
Simple? Check.
Uniqueness? Check.
Streamlining? Check.
Customization? Check.
FlyGuy is Pro AND God? Dub Check. HOE.

I think you might have missed that checklist.
I think you all missed the true point of his post.

Instead of picking out the one thing you dislike and fighting back. Address the issues under his "Glaring Problems" list. It's pretty spot on.
If you're satisfied with the shitty size of the community now then just ignore these problems, but I guarantee there will be growth if the game is changed correctly.
As he said, there are too many people who haven't been around long enough to know the game and how it should be sequel-ed. And I'm not putting Ahli down for this (especially since he's master at triggers and don't think he'd be mad) but the other day he thought walling terrain with pylons to zone enemies was the new meta, when it's been around forever. His response is representative of many players who just don't have the experience under their belts as some of us. It's not elitism it's the truth. We want this game to be better, because it deserves to be better.

Help us help you instead of dodging these problems.



None.

Jul 28 2013, 5:57 pm Ahli Post #450

I do stuff and thingies... Try widening and reducing the number of small nooks and crannies to correct the problem.

Quote from NinjaOtis
Quote from Ahli
Blizzard might be working on something to make percentage based armor possible (like wc3). At least one developer hinted that they work on bringing back a few wc3 features. Therefore, I would wait until Blizzard releases whatever they are working on in a major patch.

If I'm not mistaken there are already games out there with percent based damage reduction. STD for example.
Well, it's possible with triggers, but that means that we would need to code the whole damage mechanics ourselves. We are already firing a trigger for every damage effect, but that would even add up to the performance costs... it's possible, but the better solution for this might just arrive in very near future:

Patch 2.0.10 will most likely bring these things already... maybe already next week?
So, which armor reduction formula would you suggest?

I don't know how it will work and which element carries the armor formula information. I will tell you here when I found that out (after the patch was released).

Also, critical damage seems to be a new easily implementable mechanic.




Jul 28 2013, 7:25 pm NinjaOtis Post #451



Quote from Ahli

Patch 2.0.10 will most likely bring these things already... maybe already next week?
So, which armor reduction formula would you suggest?

I don't know how it will work and which element carries the armor formula information. I will tell you here when I found that out (after the patch was released).

Also, critical damage seems to be a new easily implementable mechanic.

Yea you're right about the processing costs of doing that so it's good to avoid.
Sounds promising for armor. I'm sure we'll learn in due time.
I'd avoid critical damage though if it involves proc/proccing.

Still waiting on response to glaring problems. (not necessarily from you Ahli)



None.

Jul 28 2013, 9:06 pm HighGuyInBankai Post #452



Quote from luzz
I like how you talk about core mechanics of play... And then suggest things that are entirely different from what tS1 stood for... By the way, your "skill tree" with perks is not simple and would add yet more things for players to understand upon entering the game. At least I couldn't even understand it and you were trying to explain it, I can't even imagine how some new player would feel playing an entirely different game and then you go and add perks on top of each skill and some of them have 3? Yeah... Players would get bored of reading that really fast, I know I do. The only reason we have tooltips at this point is to give the player some numbers to work off of if they want to plan an attack against a low HP opponent. Spells should be relatively easy to understand once they have been used once or twice.

Oh an by the way... If you get armor against assault or medic (I had no idea medic was a DPS'er) then they are screwed... 1 armor point takes away 2 damage and armor costs less than damage. Easy to keep up with. Especially against medic. Of course skill should always be taken into account. A micro god on reaper will obviously own most melee enemies, but the assault melts just as fast as he dealt damage. If people attacked me I would immediately have to run away and only get like 2 shots off. Also, assault falls off majorly end game when everyone has teleports and long range abilities with Ultis that grant different forms and such. So all in all... Armor is still useful... Assault may be able to dps at levels 1-5 but sucks terribly at it in team fights and can only do it against melee enemies in a situation where the enemy can't kill him from a distance.

I do agree with the dropship ability tho, I feel the ability would be better represented by another hero. If you can give us a suggestion that does not suck (According to you) I will gladly make it.

~Luzz

Pardon me, I have to put on my LOLLERSKATES for this one.

You state: "I like how you talk about core mechanics of play... And then suggest things that are entirely different from what tS1 stood for..."

You are either high or trolling, choose one. Because the last time I checked the things you have implemented have been going against the VERY fundamentals of this game. And a vocal crowd has come out AGAINST these very implementations that you have installed in the game. There is a significant number saying this game is a poorly made, and these aren't some randoms either who are saying this. In addition to this, you have the audacity to turn around level the accusation of "Going against the TS1 gameplay". Get your mind correct son, because as far as I can tell this game is a FAR CRY from the TS1 core mechanics.

Want proof? You got it sir. Now at the risk of starting to sound like a broken record.

---------
Deviations from core gameplay of TS1
- Unplayable garbage summoner.
I like how you talk about core mechanics of play... And then suggest things that are entirely different from what tS1 stood for...

- Assimilators have no strategic defenses in terms of geography. This is huge.
I like how you talk about core mechanics of play... And then suggest things that are entirely different from what tS1 stood for...

- Assault is a DPS'er with godly skills he can do everything. Then you suggest taking dropship from him and moving to ANOTHER hero.
I like how you talk about core mechanics of play... And then suggest things that are entirely different from what tS1 stood for...

- DM removed her orb, making her a simple point and click hero. Removing a layer a depth.
I like how you talk about core mechanics of play... And then suggest things that are entirely different from what tS1 stood for...

- Volt is a DPS'er and his L4 is batshit overpowered and doesn't lose a life while dying in it, furthermore he can use spells while in it.
I like how you talk about core mechanics of play... And then suggest things that are entirely different from what tS1 stood for...

- The game is 5v5
I like how you talk about core mechanics of play... And then suggest things that are entirely different from what tS1 stood for...

- You can buy spell upgrades from a shop? This TS?
I like how you talk about core mechanics of play... And then suggest things that are entirely different from what tS1 stood for...

- Assassin running around with blinks and decap? Furthermore his home portal spell is removed?
I like how you talk about core mechanics of play... And then suggest things that are entirely different from what tS1 stood for...

- You cannot build spawn in this. This was toruney viable mechanic did you know this? No you didn't. A team made it to a semi-finals using spawn.
I like how you talk about core mechanics of play... And then suggest things that are entirely different from what tS1 stood for...

- Utility has been tossed out the window for DPS spells.
I like how you talk about core mechanics of play... And then suggest things that are entirely different from what tS1 stood for...

- "1 armor point takes away 2 damage and armor costs less than damage. Easy to keep up with. Especially against medic." DPS medic? Nice.
I like how you talk about core mechanics of play... And then suggest things that are entirely different from what tS1 stood for...

- "A micro god on reaper will obviously own most melee enemies, but the assault melts just as fast as he dealt damage." Yes Assault the DPS'er.
I like how you talk about core mechanics of play... And then suggest things that are entirely different from what tS1 stood for...
-----------

Is it just me, or could there be trend emerging in this? What do you think Luzz? Is it me the SEN poster who is suggesting a more simple, yet a deep gameplay change ->OR<- you the developer and designer of this game, not only suggesting radical change and ideas, but implementing radical change to the point where some things are beyond recognition?

Want more evidence? Case and point, in your own words:

"I do agree with the dropship ability tho, I feel the ability would be better represented by another hero. If you can give us a suggestion that does not suck (According to you) I will gladly make it."

Assault is not assault without dropship. Nevermind you scrapped three of his original spells. This was his calling card. If you take away that from him, he is not even assault but an entirely different hero. No Luzz, I am not the agent of deviation from core mechanics here. You are. Ostensibly your own accusation and statement applies to you and your design changes of this game.

Take hard look in mirror and check yourself before you even start leveling accusations of altering core gameplay. I listed the reasons why this game poorly designed and why it's going in a bad direction. You nit pick statements, and evade the major problems of your game. Then level dishonest accusatory statements that apply to yourself.

This game disgusts many of the fans. Apologize to them right now.

Post has been edited 5 time(s), last time on Jul 28 2013, 9:46 pm by HighGuyInBankai.



None.

Jul 28 2013, 9:43 pm LoveLess Post #453

Let me show you how to hump without making love.

Actually, I have a percentage armor system fully functioning on my own map. The team turned down the idea of implementing it.



None.

Jul 28 2013, 9:48 pm HighGuyInBankai Post #454



Quote from LoveLess
Actually, I have a percentage armor system fully functioning on my own map. The team turned down the idea of implementing it.

Loveless, my only thing is:

- IS it easy to implement and in your opinion would it suit TS2's need for an armor system to be a strategic element.
- Furthermore, how would warrior be affected by his L1 + L4, how would it alter him. Can you imagine this?



None.

Jul 28 2013, 10:12 pm Ahli Post #455

I do stuff and thingies... Try widening and reducing the number of small nooks and crannies to correct the problem.

Are you aware that your copy paste style of "suggest things that are entirely different from what tS1 stood for" makes people ignore what you are really trying to point at?
I believe that you want to make people see problems, but you are just pointing at them stating that's different than TS1 on SCBW.

How about analyzing why it was better in Broodwar?
If you can make understand why it was better, we can learn from that and make a better game. Things were better because of a reason and that's what you are not trying to identify.

"Unplayable garbage summoner."
He can be very weak in 5vs5, yes. The amount of nuking abilities are problematic for the early game summoner, too, if you use many lings in one area [like every new player would do it].
But he has such great potential in a 3vs3. That's the problem... he farms much better in low player games. In a 5vs5, he is much more easily countered as you are more likely to kill his lings.

"The game is 5v5"
So, what's the problem with 5vs5? People are used to not play alone on a lane when they play the game the first time. It's creating another layer of team strategy in the game with the asymmetric experience distribution. Also, you have much more hero vs hero engagements due to more 2vs1 situations. So, why is 3vs3 superior to 5vs5?

"You can buy spell upgrades from a shop? This TS?"
TS1 had purchasable upgrades, too... Is there a big problem that you need to return to base to get it? You had to go to the base to buy a probe in BW, too.
Or is there a problem with spell improvements in general?

"Assassin running around with blinks and decap? Furthermore his home portal spell is removed?"
Why is a safety button better than a teleport that can be used to chase, gank, escape? It gives Assassin a chance to dodge a few powerful attacks and remain in combat. Without it you might not be able to even touch the enemy. So, a few movement based abilities are required to engage heroes like assault.

"1 armor point takes away 2 damage and armor costs less than damage. Easy to keep up with. Especially against medic. - DPS medic? Nice."
I assume the problem is that the armor required to make a difference costs really much. Your opportunity cost is a lack of damage. So, you would only get armor versus spawns/cannons and certain abilities like mutant's L2.
Versus some spells it has just no noticeable effect which makes armor less worth.

"Utility has been tossed out the window for DPS spells."
suggestions, suggestions, suggestions...
Right now, many spells have a bit of damage on them because damage has a bigger role in receiving experience in TS2.
I would love to hear suggestions for spells that provide more utility. Which would you add? Which would you replace? Which would you alter?

Quote from LoveLess
Actually, I have a percentage armor system fully functioning on my own map. The team turned down the idea of implementing it.
Will it work properly with damage reduction effects? Will it work with dark swarm? Is the 1 game frame delay for all damage effects a problem?

Since we are already creating a thread for every damage effect to track damage received and damage done per player, this might work out. We would need to trigger the complete damage mechanic as we only receive the raw damage value that is applied on the unit. So, all reductions via buffs, armor, etc would have to be done via triggers. Ok, it should be less performance costly than I imagined it before.
One problem is visualizing the damage reduction on a unit... we can't edit armor tooltips of units, afaIk...
But we should see what the patch adds for armor reduction, first.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 28 2013, 10:25 pm by Ahli.




Jul 28 2013, 10:53 pm Dem0n Post #456

ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

Maybe you guys could add an option at the beginning of the game to choose either 3v3 or 5v5? That way, players who like the old style better could pick 3v3, whereas players who like the new and MOBA-standard 5v5 could pick that one.




Jul 28 2013, 10:55 pm HighGuyInBankai Post #457



Quote from Ahli
Are you aware that your copy paste style of "suggest things that are entirely different from what tS1 stood for" makes people ignore what you are really trying to point at?
I believe that you want to make people see problems, but you are just pointing at them stating that's different than TS1 on SCBW.

How about analyzing why it was better in Broodwar?
If you can make understand why it was better, we can learn from that and make a better game. Things were better because of a reason and that's what you are not trying to identify.

"Unplayable garbage summoner."
He can be very weak in 5vs5, yes. The amount of nuking abilities are problematic for the early game summoner, too, if you use many lings in one area [like every new player would do it].
But he has such great potential in a 3vs3. That's the problem... he farms much better in low player games. In a 5vs5, he is much more easily countered as you are more likely to kill his lings.

"The game is 5v5"
So, what's the problem with 5vs5? People are used to not play alone on a lane when they play the game the first time. It's creating another layer of team strategy in the game with the asymmetric experience distribution. Also, you have much more hero vs hero engagements due to more 2vs1 situations. So, why is 3vs3 superior to 5vs5?

"You can buy spell upgrades from a shop? This TS?"
TS1 had purchasable upgrades, too... Is there a big problem that you need to return to base to get it? You had to go to the base to buy a probe in BW, too.
Or is there a problem with spell improvements in general?

"Assassin running around with blinks and decap? Furthermore his home portal spell is removed?"
Why is a safety button better than a teleport that can be used to chase, gank, escape? It gives Assassin a chance to dodge a few powerful attacks and remain in combat. Without it you might not be able to even touch the enemy. So, a few movement based abilities are required to engage heroes like assault.

"1 armor point takes away 2 damage and armor costs less than damage. Easy to keep up with. Especially against medic. - DPS medic? Nice."
I assume the problem is that the armor required to make a difference costs really much. Your opportunity cost is a lack of damage. So, you would only get armor versus spawns/cannons and certain abilities like mutant's L2.
Versus some spells it has just no noticeable effect which makes armor less worth.

"Utility has been tossed out the window for DPS spells."
suggestions, suggestions, suggestions...
Right now, many spells have a bit of damage on them because damage has a bigger role in receiving experience in TS2.
I would love to hear suggestions for spells that provide more utility. Which would you add? Which would you replace? Which would you alter?

This is exhausting but since I love this game, lets do it.

A) In regards to the copy and paste style, it was there to get the point across. Luzz is in fact changing this game into something that is not TS. But entirely different, it could be argued to some extent it was still TS but then he wants to remove Bomber/Dropship from Assault, his calling card and then furthermore change him into something that he wasn't for no logical reason it doesn't make any sense. The point is to hammer home the fact that his statement more or less applies to him. Lets come clean here, he's definitely altered the game into something, but it's not TS. I wanted to make it clear that his statement has no merit and in fact his own statement applied to him.

B) Game is not made for 5v5 but more on to that later. Doesn't matter, summoner is garbage. The change to him is arbitrary. The logic in some of these decisions are eyebrow raising like: You add a dimension to summoner, the leash, for what I assume is gameplay depth but all it does is hamper him. It does nothing but restrict him from what his previous incarnation was. Summoner is a high risk, high reward hero. In addition, you change Assault into a mind numbing DPS'er who's calling card is complete garbage and is batshit op'd. Original assault was pretty fucking complicated and you had to have precise control and fast fingers. You change Volt into a DPS op Monster. These changes make little sense. DPS doesn't equate to depth, or fun.

C) This is not DOTA, there is not a huge hero pool. You are wrong, if you played TS1 then you knew you go head up alone in the lane vs another hero. Where do you get the notion "people are not used to being in a lane alone?" The heroes in TS1 all had elements and could be support, carry, semi-tank e.t.c. You could customize your hero. This is not a game 5v5 for two people to be sharing lanes competing for EXP/Cash. This game was not made for it, this is made even worse by the fact assimilators are a complete joke in this game. The game is made for a fluid 3v3 combat arena experience. On top of that it's not another layer of team strategy when hero balance is not even in the foundation of the game in the first place. Again this game is DPS, DPS, DPS, there really is not a whole lot of strategy to this game.

Though a bad idea, two in lane could be imaginable IF you could have defensible assimilators to recoup cash but you don't. Heroes in this game need EXP and Cash to their fullest potential. The idea of Archer and say LM sharing a lane has so many problems it's ridiculous, or LM and SpecOps. Furthermore. because of the DPS'y nature of this game and the lack of utility, there really is not support/utility anymore.

D) The shop thing was just a small thing to add on top of the bigger things about what is wrong with the game. Emphasizing top to bottom problems with this game. Big and small. And no this game should not have a shop. Why? Because it is just not like TS. People don't want DoTa/HoN/League fuck that.

E) Assassin was not made to engage in hard combat. This is a problem more along the lines of design and development. Again I keep trying to emphasize this point: Not all Heroes in TS1 were DPS'ers nor are there counterparts in this should be made into DPS. It was what made the gameplay awesome, they were all different. If I wanted Hard DPS: Archer, Ling, Mech, LM. Playmakers: Bat, DM, Volt. Utility but good offense: Warrior and Spec Ops. Indirect Offensive: Assassin and Summoner.

Assassin was a hero of opportunity and patience. Not a head up fighter. Gank you say? Hes supposed to be invisible at night, remember? Chase? Lol, Sin doesn't chase because you know why, once he has you he kills you. That was his game play mechanic. You want to chase someone, use Ling and Mutant. More irony: Assassin was not supposed to engage assault in TS1 because they neutralized each other. That's what made for interesting game play. So what if he can't engage assault? He wasn't supposed to in the first place. Anyone who's a veteran knows this. Was SpecOps supposed to head-up with Mech, no. Was Bat supposed to head up with Volt? No. So why has this enriching gameplay balance been tossed to garbage to give him a blink to engage in hard combat? He wasn't supposed to engage in hard combat, everyone knows this. So why now?

F) Yes, whole heartedly agree. It needs to be fixed.

G) Suggestions? Isn't it obvious revert the heroes to their previous incarnations and start from there. They had loads of utility and balanced gameplay, this game is just spam fest of DPS. Again some of the core things in TS, I keep repeating this:

- Assimilators being worthwhile and defensible.
- Spawn options. This is HUGE. And I'm going to keep hammering it.
- Making capture points worthwhile.
- Three versus Three.
- Utility. The originals had utility I still don't see why they have gotten rid of the original spells when they worked so well?
- Geography needs to be reverted.
- Restore the hero balance this games balance is complete shit.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 28 2013, 11:08 pm by HighGuyInBankai.



None.

Jul 28 2013, 11:50 pm NinjaOtis Post #458



Get ready for strawman we already tried that response.



None.

Jul 29 2013, 1:22 am LoveLess Post #459

Let me show you how to hump without making love.

The damage is handled entirely data-side. The only part that requires triggers is adding and removing the behaviors/buffs when the armor is changed. It handles damage that is done directly, so it should work within Dark Swarm, unless there are additional problems.

As for will it work in TS? Well we can double up the armor by making it reduce flat and percentage, although how much of each is the real question.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 29 2013, 2:02 am by LoveLess.



None.

Jul 29 2013, 1:27 am Jack Post #460

>be faceless void >mfw I have no face

Quote
A) In regards to the copy and paste style, it was there to get the point across. Luzz is in fact changing this game into something that is not TS. But entirely different, it could be argued to some extent it was still TS but then he wants to remove Bomber/Dropship from Assault, his calling card and then furthermore change him into something that he wasn't for no logical reason it doesn't make any sense. The point is to hammer home the fact that his statement more or less applies to him. Lets come clean here, he's definitely altered the game into something, but it's not TS. I wanted to make it clear that his statement has no merit and in fact his own statement applied to him.
You realize that luzzotica never stated that he wasn't trying to change TS2 from TS1, right? So you're making up an argument he never made, also known as a strawman argument. His claim is that YOU are saying you want it to be more like TS1, and then YOU go on to say that it should be changed in X way which is far from TS1. So YOU are being a hypocrite here. He's quite happy to change things from TS1, and I doubt he'd deny that TS2 is different. You're the one wanting it the same and then saying you want it different. Make up your mind.



Red classic.

"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."

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