I placed my comments in the above quote. Obviously some heroes are overall better than others but really it comes down to skill and teamwork.

Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Aug 15 2011, 5:58 am by Loading.

When he says Mage i think he means magician, not Light Mage

That list us a load of rubbish. Assault is tier one by far, mech also, archer's tier 3, mutant tier 2, volt tier 2, warrior's OK at tier 3, but tier 2 isn't out of the question. Dark mage is tier 3, spec ops is tier 4, summoner probably tier 3, assassin is tier 4, (but situationally REALLY useful). Alchemist general and magician I don't know, haven't played them or seen them played much.

You're forgetting that tiers are an approximate rank of power and versatility. Mech's tier 1 does not mean it is unstoppable, it means it is both powerful and versatile without being vulnerable to many tactics. They aren't measuring team synergy, and is a rating of the units individually.


Tier 3 is a powerful tier, don't let it fool you by thinking it's "average" because it's in the middle. The reason these units are tier 3 and not tier 2 is because they're vulnerable to many different strategies, but also have a use in almost every situation. Tier 3 is the tier one should be aiming for when a hero is created.


Again, not rating synergy. He's a good stunner, but should be put on the same playing table as Volt as a unit? I don't think so.


The variety of natural spells really does make for a lot of versatility. I would consider DM something more like tier 3.5. But the inability to break a base easily leaves a definite hole in its arsenal that really hurts.


Which is why it is in tier 5. Concussive damage, slow movement speed, no offensive spells, and very vulnerable to a number of tactics. Alone, the medic is quite weak.



Yes.

I listed the spells for the magician and the general. any questions for more detail just request it

Is it possible to Put this in your next ts verson?

The ability for the map itself to counter someone using a drophack. Such as using EUD to detect the word /drop in a players msg box. U can make it when this action occurs, it will automatically drop that player and give a display msg to everyone else in the game that hr/she attempted to drophack.

The ability for the map to detect maphacking in a different way than traditionally trying to detect it. Is it possible for u to use EUD to check the text wheb someobe toggles their maphack? U can even have it display to everyone that this person turned on their maphack and when they turn it off, a msg will diaplay that they turned the maphack off.

These features would probably take a ton of work but so many people would be happy.

how much damage does general's lv2 do? (for one tank)

Horrible tier list, needs a rework.

Hero overview:

Assault: Awesome Hero. 2x Exp w/ splash, Good DPS, Good Armor, good health, counters spawn rushing and combos well with your spawn (web harass, disable their Spawn). Shutdowns Spec Ops, Mutant, Medic, Warrior, early game LM and controls summoner. Bomber is godly map control, he can take caps whenever he wants. Mech, Volt, Late game LM, and Hydra only counter him. Mech's L4 is owned by his L1, and if the Assault has had a good game 1v1 he can STILL win. Volt cannot kill him efficently, but bat should never be able to 1v1 him, and if volt is pumped enough Spawn rushing won't work. Late game LM can be spawn rushed. Archer just rolls him. Easily tier one by far, hard hero to play. Versatile in ANY lineup. Ok starting when capping, he can stall but really shines in capturing top.

Summoner: High Risk, High reward hero however he can effectively win games by himself. Tri-lane feed at night? Sim map at night. Yes please. Counters Mech, Volt, Medic, Archer, DM. Can't be spawn rushed if he has any team mates. Has a critical mass point where it will be impossible to kill him. His only true hard counter is Spec Ops. He is soft countered by DT, Bat, Mutant. (Get at me if you want to debate this.) Godly map control mid-game, can create assimilators. However he can be shutdown with proper map control. Great capper simply because he can stall forever.

Volt: Absolute monster. 3HP kit makes him near unkillable and his farm is through the roof. Has a transformation, godly combo, only really two hard counters. That being late game LM and Summoner. DM soft counters with ensnare. Counters Assault, Spec Ops, Warrior, Mutant, Early game LM. For all the noobs, cry: MECH DOES NOT COUNTER VOLT PERIOD. Good versus spawn, has a mana drain, huge survivalbility and one of the best temple siegers in the game. He also defends the temple so godly. The only crucial element missing is map control and early game. Capping abilities are supbar at start. Could be tier one but easily top of tier 2.

Warrior: Should be tier two, simply because he scales incredibly throughout the game. No farm mechanism however. He is also a hard counter to Mech, Mutant, Spec Ops, LM, and Archer. What keeps him from being god tier is his hard counters beat him bad DM, Assault, DT, Volt and endgame Summoner. However his auto-attack damage is through roof, you can never spawn rush him, and the longer the game goes on he gets harder and harder to kill. Also very good early game when capturing outposts. Very balanced hero.

Mutant: Get ready for the pubs to cry: Near garbage hero. Lets start with the good first, has one of the best utility spells in the game L1. Has a transformation which grants him survivalbility. Can't be spawn rushed. And is godlike endgame, and has huge farming mechanism if he gets the proper mana. The bad: He sucks in lane because hes melee and has Low hp and no survivalbility, almost anyone can harass him out of feeding. Shitty capper at start however, he can be a decent staller. Can't Assim. Only really gets going late mid-game when he can start lurker farming. L2 is dodged with a right click, L3 is easily avoidable and countered by armor. Has so many counters DM, Assault, Medic, Warrior, Volt. He counters Archer, DT to a degree, Spec Ops to a degree, LM. Really relies on the mistakes made by other players and his endgame to win. He is a pubstar hero for a reason, he becomes a monster if he gets any hero kills (Which anyone good should no be feeding)

Mech: Popular for a reason. 2HP-3HP kit makes him near unkillable by normal means. Good map control. Good DPS. Good Harass. Good range. Bike mode is beast. Can always perform well. Needs assims badly though and his starting game is pretty weak. Falls to being overwhelmed with spawns. Extremely versatile hero. Hard Counters Spec Ops, LM, Assault, DM. Countered by Warrior, Summoner, DT (<- One stun and mech dies and he has to get fairly close to kill him and no detection. Easily be top tier.

DM: Powerful hero. Absolutely destroys certain set-ups. Godlike capping abilities and stalling. Awesome map control, has a mana drain. Sucks vs spawns. She can farm decently with storms and leftover L4. Also a great hero to seige a temple with makes sitting at the temple useless. Great disable. Overall great hero. Counters: Archer, Spec Ops, Warrior, LM, Mutant. Soft counters volt with snare, otherwise shes owned by him. Hard Countered by: Assault, Medic, Summoner, Archers companions, and Mech.

DT: Another powerful hero, but has some faults. This is another guy who can destroy certain setups. Has a stun, a teleport, rapes spawns, godly base sieging ability. One shot's popular heroes (summoner). Daytime he can be useless and easily harassed. His trump card is he can literally solo your base by himself at around 10 ups. His hard counters shut him down pretty bad Spec Ops, Mutant, DM, Medic. He counters Archer, Warrior, LM, mech. Could be Tier 3 bottom Tier 2.

Medic: Low tier, especially since the crybabies demanded she be nerfed, but still a hero who can literally transform games into auto-wins. Power med can literally shut down specific heroes. Counters DT, Warrior, LM and to a certain extent DM. She messes up certain heroes like volt and warrior because they rely on combos to win. Rapes lane hard against certain heroes like spec ops, warrior, mutant, LM, Dt. She really shines on a team with good temple siegers as once she has free access to your base with 200mana and all spells its over. She is hard countered by Archer (L4 has delay so therefore it will go through disable, one shots her at like 10ups and companions), Assault (Bomber = gg), Summoner is explanitory.

LM: Varies, in a sense he could be contender for the worst hero but he has somethings going for him. He literally eats the other teams farm so somebody on the opposing team will be starved via spawn manipulation. However he is easily killable by other heroes and he slow. However, once he reachs critical mass he becomes a moving fortress. L1+L3 combo with proper ups pretty much death to anyone outside of Warrior. He will be able to demolish opposing outposts in seconds. Feeds like a monster. And hallucination has huge utility in assaulting capture points and bases. He has the potential for the heavist damage in the game but a team needs to be built around him. Letting him get into late game would be a huge mistake unless he is the last one left. If he has a team and is still left alive you will have a serious problem. He counters Summoner (He will never be able to kill your base and feeds heavily), Volt (L3+L1 = death), Assault, and in sense mech because outside of double L3 mech cannot kill him easily if he is propely farmed. Overall low tier but has great potential.

Ohai maxx, yer back.

Mutant by himself is bad but pair him with a stun and he becomes an elimination machine. A one shot wonder. Of course if you let mutant feed he's a boss regardless of stuns.

He has average DPS, his concussive damage rules him out. He has 1 armor, which is also average. His health is a high average. His double training ability or anti-spawn fixation doesn't bump him up a tier. I don't know where you're getting how he shuts down Special Ops, Medic, or Warrior.

Mech's l4 is only "owned" by his l1 in the same way mutant's l2 is owned by sin's l2. It's a factor of anticipating when and where the attack will take place. This is a factor of serious skill.

Bomber only grants so much control, and depends on the units he is facing. This does not grant him an ability in "most" situations as required by tier 3 level. There are too many heroes who simply aren't scared of his bomber. Mid to late game general/lm, late game mage, archer, mech, volt, assault, and late game alchemist are all not controlled by the bomber. This is a massive gap in your "godly" map control.

All of these disadvantages won't even qualify him for tier 3, let alone tier 1. He will be absolutely destroyed by archer, which is tier 2, and you want to place him in tier 1? All tier 1 units have no hard counters, and can fight evenly with tier 1 and 2 units.

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He can, but only if the other team doesn't know how to control him. Counters mech? I don't think so buddy, Mech can shutdown summoner. You're basically saying, "oh well with lots of sims and lots of feed, he owns". YES. But that's an ideal situation for any hero. That's very situational.

Archer is not countered by summoner. Medic is not necessarily countered by summoner. There is no critical point. It depends on the other heroes. A warrior with l3 is virtually immune to all but ultralisks, and a mech is just so ungodly powerful late game that he can just waltz into your base and wreck havoc. His map control only extends to extra sims, like DT. His effectiveness against other heroes varies.

Also, the last few games I've played with summoner attempted to stall my team forever ended up with a major case of deadness. It can be dangerous for him to go out alone.

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He's too vulnerable. I don't think you understand exactly how vulnerable and situational he really is. Mech can and will obliterate a volt. A 2l3, an l4, his l1. I don't know where you're getting that mech is someone immune from all of this damage. Also, to illustrate vulnerability, his shields take full damage from all forms of attacks.

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A "hard counter" to mech, mutant, spec ops, lm, and archer? I don't know where you're getting this stuff. Archer is extremely effective against a warrior. He's very balanced, which counters what you just stated. He's in the same tier as Volt, Mutant, Assassin, lm... It seems you simply want to put every unit into tier 1 & 2. Even though they'll be rolled by mech or archer.

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Lol, his l3 is not as avoidable as you may think, and has tremendous damage potential. It falls into a game of skill at that point. You're completely undermining him. It's like you forgot about his l1 and that he's the 2nd fastest unit in the game. His l2 is also a matter of skill, but its extreme DPS makes for excellent base smashing with a few points in HP.

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Tiers aren't just rating who can kill who. They rate vulnerability and flexibility. How useful is the hero in how many different scenarios? How useful are the spells? If stuck in a bad situation, is there something the hero can do to escape? Assault is good at what he does, but he's bad at what he doesn't.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 20 2011, 6:09 pm by Sacrieur.

Mutant, even if it's a "near garbage hero" as you think and even if I do not like him, can be a serious threat to many heroes, he is near flawless against melee-minded champions. He might be a "shitty" capper later, but in later game, he can make up for that by having the ability of quick minded ganks in late game, especially at night. His speed also helps him become a great chaser and "assassin" type character. No survival rate is completely undermining him, he can survive in the night completely fine by himself, even get a few kills on isolated champions and can tell the team where certain heroes are during the night. L3 might be avoidable (I don't think it's easy though, considering his speed), but it does a lot of damage and range to compensate for that. And you forgot about his DPS capabilities, he can be probably the first hero to ever kill a pylon or cannon with his L2. Mutant, with all these, can also be a excellent back-door or ganker, considering he can chase weak targets after team fights, or wipe out a hero in one lane swiftly.

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Mech does not counter volt? I kind of agree/disagree because if the Mech can go vulture and micro/harass the hell out of it (Which I never found in pub games). Mech also has heavily damaging abilities, which can decimate volt quickly. But volt can lure in mech, which is bad considering terran mech is probably one of the hardest units to pull off of an lure trigger. And that is bad because if Mech uses L1, he'll also get damaged.

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I did tournaments with Archer, and I disagree whole entirely about warrior being a hard counter to Spec ops and Archer. Archer is an extremely effective person against Warrior.

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Mech: L2. I don't think Summoner counters mech.
Archer: L1. To put Archer as being countered by Summoner is a sign saying that the Archer's you played with were horrible, because I know some great Archers that can destroy Summoner's tri-lane and early games. And Early game is a required asset to summoner, because he's just feed if he doesn't get early game right.

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Bomber isn't that great, because if the Bomber gets destroyed in combat, that's a lot of exp going to your enemies. And the bomber is whole entirely weak to enemy fire, so L3 isn't that godly. His 2x EXP and Counter spawn rushing doesn't help him much if, say, the enemy is splash oriented. Spec Ops, if he knows what he is doing, can destroy Assault by countering his L1's range in early game. My opinion is that he's tier two, because so many people do not know how to build him or utilize him right in a game. Especially against team fights, if the assault doesn't know what he has to do, he's more useless then a summoner. And there are some heroes that can downright destroy him, Archer is tier 2, and he can destroy Assault who's tier "one", so why is he in Tier one if a Tier two can beat him?

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That is the true definition of Tiers. Heck, tiers aern't just for TS, they also are in fighting games, Shooting games, etc.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 20 2011, 8:11 pm by x-EnAlex.

Assuming the heroes are all played equally, mech will find it near impossible to kill volt, whereas volt will find it easy to kill mech if he makes a small mistake.

Assault and his bomber, when played right, are definitely top tier. Mech's probably the only hard counter to this, maybe volt and archer are average counters to it too.

It's true, volt's l3 can punish mistakes, but it comes with a warning. The warning enables a player to cast whatever spells need to be cast before having mana drained. In archer's case, this means spamming l1, in mech's case, it's casting l4 or transforming to a unit better suited to take on volt. All three of mech's forms will attack while stunned.

Assault and his bomber is meh, the list I made is all units that really have little to fear from a bomber. Alchemist must be wary because he can't manual, but if he's watching, two hits will destroy a bomber. LM can forget about it altogether, if the bomber comes in range just l3 and it's destroyed, along with everything else nearby. General's l3/l4 can attack air units. Assault can destroy a bomber pretty fast with his l1 too.

wow, that's a lot of work you did there, gift. I finally arrived back to Canada, and I'm already seeing a great progression in Temple Siege.
I can't believe you've fixed glitches that I couldn't even do!
I don't think I can go on SC often, and I wish you a good luck in future!

thx dude. hope u had a good time in korea. did what i could to advance Temple Siege Be online more often so u can see my possibly final edition that will be coming out soon

Any chance we're going to see a permanent observer for Mage's l1? Or at least make it an l1b.

I took this option into consideration. I decided against it because I didnt want to create another hard counter on Assassin. The 2 new hero (General and Mist) are able to detect the Assassin already. I feel as though its power is slightly slipping away.

In other news. I just finished the spells for Mist but I do have a few other ideas that i might introduce into Temple Siege such as Team Actions. My ideas for "Team Actions" would be an option where you have your civs top middle. You can move your civs to a different area and use this Team Action. Some of the options i had thought of would be... Use 5 civs from your team to kill all enemy Mines (Sims). Use 5 civs from your team and it will kill all enemy spawn units from the other teams allied computer that are on the field. These are just ideas and I would like to have feedback before i decide to implement them into the map or not. Im going on vacation for a few days so Id like to hear what people have to say about it when i get back. Im neutral on the idea at the moment.

That is a good point, but Mage really needs it. This actually brings up a point with sin, he needs flash step, possibly as a replacement for his current l1. There's just the little issue of implementing it. We're definitely getting closer to being able to do this, and I've seen it before. He needs it though, badly.

Alright im back from vacation. Again I do need some input on what your guys would like to see in the next version.

Im thinking of having the "Team Actions" Where your team can spend their civs to use special features such as 5 civs to kill all enemy Mines (Sims). or 5 civs to kill all the enemy spawn on the field at the moment. These features could be very useful in some games. So please give some feedback on if u want to see this or not.

I like both those ideas IAGG.
I also liked an idea mentioned in the channel, unit swapping. Idk maybe make it for the first thirty seconds after picking is done you can trade units with another player?
An idea that may be difficult to implement but interesting would be a way to pick how units are picked by vote
1. standard selection
2. classic selection (only one of each unit)
3. non vision selection
4. the selection mentioned earlier P1 then P4 and P5 then P2 and P3 then P6