I don't really know where to start on this, so I'll divide it into random sections.

Elitism
No one here can really deny that there's elitism. This also ties into the crack. We, as a community, believe we are the best StarCraft fansite purely because we have a "strong" community. This is a StarCraft fansite, and we have little content actually about StarCraft.
You honestly cannot deny statistics:


We simply can't be elitist about a good community. As Cent said, we should just turn into Facebook. SEN is really a social networking site now; we have much more off-topic content than Starcraft related. I added the Projects and Clan sections to the StarCraft related section, and honestly, the Clan section is just socializing, and the Projects are all dead. Even adding StarCraft II posts to StarCraft wouldn't put it above off-topic. I counted SEN discussion as neutral, but realistically it's oftentimes not on-topic. This may seem to have nothing to do with elitism; however, it is completely what the elitism is based on. The SEN community is very cocky, calling themselves the "best mappers" and implying both only good mappers are here and all good mappers eventually come here. Have you ever been amazed by a non-SEN mapper? *cough* Bioject *cough*
How many SC2 maps have even been made by SENers? How many good maps have even been made by SENers? How many SENers even try to make maps, not less complete them? The fact is that SEN thinks it's the best, when in fact there is no evidence for that. I have seen truly great SC2 maps from SC2Mapster, and not a single one from SEN. Why would SEN think they're better than SC2Mapster? The "community?" Their community is based purely on StarCraft 2. Ours is over half random discussion. We do not have a stronger community. We have a stronger social network.


The Crack
There is no reason not to support the crack. It is simply stupid to say that if we support the crack we'll start supporting hacks. SC2Mapster doesn't support hacks. We will not support hacks. Cracks =! Hacks. And for the Blizzard white knights, [b]they have never chosen to promote this "elite" and "amazing" StarCraft fansite. Neither on their official website, their Facebook feed, nor their Twitter feed. They simply don't care about us, even if they know about us. They don't care about the crack. They probably like people making maps, even if they don't have the copy legitimately. And before you say "well Blizzard never fucked us over either so we should keep supporting them," ask Heinnermann about his EUDs. Do action EUDs still work? I thought not. Blizzard specifically patched them. They had so much possibility, and Blizzard stopped us. To me, that is simply unforgivable. Why should we respect their intellectual property that THEY DO NOT CARE ABOUT when they don't care about us whatsoever? I simply don't understand what people are thinking. It's not even stealing; stealing implies you had to pay something. The Beta was free.

SEN's Downfall
SEN is dead. There's so much more useless content than useful, so much elitism. WE ARE NOT BETTER THAN COMMUNITIES THAT ACTUALLY DO USEFUL WORK.

I completed SC1 maps.
I still see two of them being hosted on B.net.

No one has completed SC2 maps here because it takes fucking years to do anything. I am working on 2 projects right now, which will get finished.

tl dr; You just Lost The Game.

We have perhaps a dozen active mapmakers. Out of how many active members?

We do not have that many active members... most of them joined, looked, and left.

Why do you talk of SEN as if it was a person? SEN doesn't make maps. SEN is just a platform for exposing mapmakers' projects, games and other mapmaking related things. Of course, it can be used for socializing but pretty much every website does that.

Sure, some members can be elitist or just complete assholes but such people are on every website as well; why would you then make a sweeping generalization based on their actions?

I don't really like most of the people here either but I don't really give a damn. I'm glad such sites exist as it allows me to reach a greater audience without having to suffer through public games.

Ohh, this looks like fun.


I don't believe this at all. I don't know who does.


We have nearly a 1:1 ratio of SC related:Other. Go look at TL. They're what I personally consider the best english speaking SC fan-site around. Their SC2 and BW forums total 742 pages (of threads, that is), their 'other' forums total 1460 pages. The fuck are you talking about?


Who's saying this? Have I missed a massive argument or something?


Solid points; but I don't see anyone disagreeing with you. What are you trying to argue?


I do not think you know what the definition of the word 'community' is. Just for luls, here's the first definition on dictionary.com: "a social group of any size whose members reside in a specific locality, share government, and often have a common cultural and historical heritage."


Nothing to really say about this.


This on the other hand is stupid. They patched EUDs because they were potentially dangerous.


So:

a) Why are you posting this?
b) Why aren't you producing content right now?
c) Why are you even here?

At one point, SEN was a haven for truly great Brood War mappers. Today it's a website with a fairly tight community that dabbles in BW and SC2 mapping/modding. And I'm cool with that. I don't feel that we're better than SC2Mapster or whatever other sites in terms of producing content. That would be silly. I stay here because I have respect for a number of the members and the people who run the website. I'll openly admit that no, I don't produce content anymore. But that's not why I personally am here, and that's not what matters to me. Sure it'd be nice to produce some maps, and I don't doubt that when SC2 is released, some content will come over time. But honestly, if SEN were like SC2Mapster in terms of its people and its community, I would have no desire to be here at all. So take that as you will.

I'm just pissed about the elitism. I like this community. That's why I'm here. I slowly produce content, but rarely release it. I'm working on a massive project right now.

If SEN is elitist now, then we must've been insane years ago when everyone complained about how elitist we were. Obviously as with any site, we do have elitists on SEN when it comes to certain things. As a community, however, I see us as being far from it. We know we are not better than SC2Mapster or any other SC2 fansite devoted to making maps.

I said this in the other thread, and I'll say it again:

With that, can we please stop talking about the crack? SEN is not the only website on the internet that could host the crack, and not hosting it hasn't really harmed us in any way. All this bickering now solves nothing, and the bigger issue is lack of productivity.

I cannot stress this enough. If SEN is dead, then revive it by making maps and making it a better SC2 website. How about all the people whining about the crack and complaining that SEN is dead go and make us some maps, or learn to use the editor?

I approve.

Wait, this is in SUPPORT of elitism right? Anyways, I approve of elitism. If you think we are elitist now, go back 2 years and compare.

And Im sick of this complaining from members. Stop whinning and just work on your own.

I think we went from elitism to trolling.

If you're really concerned it's best to just try to do something to increase productivity. Discussion of my post in the "omg teh minerals" thread is much more productive and the topic has much more potential than this trivial matter. http://www.staredit.net/242609/

How about we make a new rule:

Every time a member makes a doomsayer's topic them must be flogged, raped, then they must produce one starcraft1/2 map per week for an entire month.

I'm telling you -the worst part of this punishment is going to which part? Oh right, it's going to be that part about making 4 maps. Why? Because those who are too lazy to make maps to contribute to the site like to contribute by making ridiculous topics about nothing.

YEAH, QQING SUCKS AND ELITISM ROCKS. KILL QQERS AND PRAISE ELITERS.

/bandwagon


On a more serious note, this wasn't worth making a topic about. Or getting riled up over it. If you don't like people QQing, don't venture into this forum.

Yes. SEN is dead before the game comes out. Nobody is going to buy the game a little while after it comes out and then come looking for a site; they all downloaded the crack and will only find the best mapping site based on a few months of open beta. If it wasn't good before the game came out, it will never be good.

SEN is smart and clever. People should respect what we say because of that. It's not up to us whether or not others value our opinions. If they can't take my views on a matter seriously then I don't care about them, since they obviously don't care about me. As far as newbs are concerned, they obviously do not carry as much weight, however that doesn't mean we shouldn't help them when they have questions, or provide input as to why their stupid idea is stupid (in a nice manner, of course, depending on the stupidity).

If you want to get rid of elitism, then force anonymity. Then people will just sound like pretentious assholes.

Ill never get a moderation position here. Thats your proof SEN is elitist.

I just wished SEN would support the crack.

That has nothing to do with elitism.

Just proof of common sense.

You should have just posted in the other topic, because this was a terrible cover-up for something I find trivial when considering SEN's policies.

Well SEN has banned the greatest mapper several times so... clearly mapmaking and all things mapping related and starcraft related are the least of their concerns.

I wish people like you would realize that supporting or not supporting the crack has nothing to do with out position relative to other mapping sites. We decided not to spread the crack on the basis of moral principle, and to be honest, I see no logical basis to conclude that doing so has hurt us. We need to make maps, make tutorials, and publish them. That is what we are lacking. So instead of wasting your energy QQ-ing in topics like this, go make a map.

Quote

If SEN is elitist now, then we must've been insane years ago when everyone complained about how elitist we were. Obviously as with any site, we do have elitists on SEN when it comes to certain things. As a community, however, I see us as being far from it. We know we are not better than SC2Mapster or any other SC2 fansite devoted to making maps.

For the record, old complaints were of internal elitism and ranks, not of external elitism/too much site pride.