It's okay to favor simplicity, but you're just using it as an excuse to cover up for your inability to use the new more powerful editor.
Galaxy Editor is to SCMDraft as Autodesk Maya is to 3DSMax. The interface is retarded but it accomplishes much more. Why don't you see 100% of the population using Maya? Because some people actually like using 3DSMax. Same reason why people might choose to keep mapping in BW.
You're just making excuses to cover up for your inability to learn the new editor. The interface is not retarded if you know what you're doing. People can like simple and easier to use things, but you have to look at the reasons why they like them. Most of the time it's just an excuse, because they lack the skill to appreciate the more complex things.
I've used full-blown game editors with a heck of a lot more power than GE, and they were far simpler to understand. They were complicated, sure, but they weren't counter-intuitive and illogical in their design.
Incidentally, while the data editor is far from perfect, it isn't hard for me at least to understand. It is one of the better things in GE, but it still has problems.
Red classic.
"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."
Auto split, auto surround, smartcasting, etc. all remove elements of skill from the game. People actually want to play skilled players from time to time, you know, not rock-paper-scissors with the complete inability to scout the enemy base.
Lol. If you think there's no skill/micro in SC2 games, how about you watch this.
Aside from that, macro is harder. Building placement is now a much more important aspect of it, and each race has added mechanics to further separate the skill of players.
Yeah, agreed. There are more abilities, more macro demand, etc in SCII. Aristocrat's just pissed that it's not all about having the largest APM anymore.
I'm still in BW mapmaking because there's no guesswork in SCII mapmaking. With this Crapixy Editor, you no longer have to really try. Blizzard took all of the pain enjoyment out of making a map by enabling every idiot that knows how to type and has enough patience able to tinker and figure out how to do anything. Half the rage fun was figuring out why your epic, 3+ month maps bugged out 4/5th of the way through.
Basically, this editor is too user-friendly. Even SCMDraft still made mapmakers work to make their ideas come to Starcraft life.
I'm still in BW mapmaking because there's no guesswork in SCII mapmaking. With this Crapixy Editor, you no longer have to really try. Blizzard took all of the pain enjoyment out of making a map by enabling every idiot that knows how to type and has enough patience able to tinker and figure out how to do anything. Half the rage fun was figuring out why your epic, 3+ month maps bugged out 4/5th of the way through.
Basically, this editor is too user-friendly. Even SCMDraft still made mapmakers work to make their ideas come to Starcraft life.
Have you actually tried the editor? Just because it's more powerful doesn't mean it's easier to use.
Red classic.
"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."
But also, I enjoy simplicity. Why do you think all of my planned maps have such simple and intuitive concepts? I don't want the player to become frustrated; they should be able to pick up and play. SC1 is 2D, that's simple.
Sure we can make FPSs on SC2, and sure we can do more than that. But look here, you don't need any of that to make a good game, you just need a little bit to work with and a lot of creativity. After almost 30 or so years tetris is still going strong. The concept is so simple. The interface is intuitive, the controls are easy to use, and the challenge is limitless. That's what I like about making games.
Fun. Intuitive. Challenging. Simple.
You don't need a powerful editor, just a powerful creativity.
GE is obviously much more powerful and intuitive, but the learning curve is quite steep, especially for those coming straight from SC and not WC3 or any modern RTS editor.
I don't get why you think SC2 will wipe out BW completely out of the water.
I haven't tried SC2 so i do not have an opinion in the matter... as for the possible "segregation" between Sc and SC2 players, it doesnt matter. Both of them are reputable games, and SC3 might change the fact that SC2 is the shiz at the moment
I'll map BW until I can run SCII. Then, I'll map BW and SCII until I'm really good at mapping SCII. Then, I'll map SCII.
:-|
No need for a big debate, guys.
EDIT: Though if I may offer my opinion... SCII is harder to map in. SCI was about breaking limits. You needed patience and skill to find the limits, and then systematically test them until they break. SCI was about thinking outside the box, and... not much else, as far as I can tell. The best thinking-outside-the-box-ers made some of the best maps.
SCII is... You might say it's more like normal programming. It's about how you set up your systems. It's about methodologies, higher-level, higher-order constructs, organization, logic. There is no box in SCII. It's about thinking. The best thinkers will (probably) make the best maps.
Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jun 9 2010, 4:06 am by DavidJCobb.
Anyone who says they enjoy the limitations that SC imposes on them is just making an excuse. It's just a crutch, because it takes real skill to be creative without limitations. And some of the limitations are just pointless. Oh sure, death counters were clever at first, but now it's just plain stupid when you need to make dozens of repetitive triggers to do a task that can be done in one line in GE.
And relatively few people were the ones actually breaking limits in SC. All the rest of you just copy and base all your techniques off the bag of tricks and tools that have been come up with over the years. The same thing applies to SC2, but there's an even higher level of stuff.
I think the general idea is to in the end have fun. SC1 has had it's fair share of fun, but it's always bound to get repetitive and I'm quite sure it's already reached that level, even as far back as 2006 when I last played. There is a limit to everything. You're going to play another defense game, RPG, melee based UMS, bound and other map types they're all the same basic principle. Sure, each map is different, but they are the same genre you've been playing over and over for the past 7+ years. EUD triggers had very big potential to change everything we thought about SC1 map-making, but then Blizzard patched it. That was the "breaking the limits" we were looking and hoping for during 2005.
I know there are great minds out there, but statistically, I don't think there will be something big in SC1 map making like we saw so many times before. I tried and tried to create a new concept, something new that people could play with, but it always ended up moving towards something that had already existed. Heck, I even tried to make a complex shooting system that could be used for a top-view shooter but it just ended up being an overly complicated system for both the mapper and player which just wasn't practical.
I haven't played SC2 or used the Galaxy Editor, but I think the great thing about the GE is not that it's incredibly powerful, it's that it allows us to expand our games. The FPS system is great, imagine (U)Bolt_Head's House of the Haunted on such a system? It gave you some shivers in SC1, in SC2 I think it could be possible to be as scary as playing Resident Evil, for the first time, alone, it's near midnight and you're just 12 years old. That's just the tip of the iceberg. RPG's can be expanded upon since you don't have unit type limits because you can create your own units and give them whatever abilities and spell you want. I see an insane number of possibilities here to have fun with.
If anyone wants to stay with BW, I really have no problem, but I think that there are greater possibilities in SC2. That and if you really want to break the limits of SC1 map making, why not do it in SC2 instead?
Way to shoot us visual people in the foot. Thanks Blizz, I appreciate it. Blizz should be thinking how to make the system just as powerful without scripting. I appreciate having more power than "if... then" statements, but god damn. Its not an excuse to not learn the new editor, but I really don't like programming. A lot. And for a reason, I'm an artist, and even thought I'll swim around in mathematics all day, programming is just one sea I do not want to dive into.
I'm not making excuses to not learn the editor, I've said before if I could run sc2 I would map it. So it obviously isn't about that.
@David: I agree wholeheartedly. Creative people such as myself are going to be put at a disadvantage in sc2 because we will be able to do anything we want. People like me thrive best in environments under pressure. Remove the pressure and we don't do as well. Not saying that it is a bad thing, but just that it will be harder for us to make maps.
TBH, if Blizz had given us EUD tools to work with and gave everyone a EUD enabler in a patch... I think our maps would be grossly more prolific. I honestly think that thinking with restrictions improves one's knowledge of what it is you have to work with. Hence why we're able to do what we can with triggers. In mathematics there are times were you have to get creative, and that leads to a much better understand about how math works. But now I believe we're at the point in mapping where we need to expand the box. Which is why my next few maps I may make will require a EUD enabler.
Anyone who says they enjoy the limitations that SC imposes on them is just making an excuse. It's just a crutch, because it takes real skill to be creative without limitations. And some of the limitations are just pointless.
O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- the setting exists, it's just hidden in a weird place
[04:04 am]
O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- instead change "Microtile Overlay" to "Impassable"
[04:04 am]
O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- er, wait, idk why i was looking for height
[04:03 am]
O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- below the minimap should be a thing that says "Overlay Settings" with a little + button in the corner, press the + to expand it, uncheck Use Defaults, then change "Tile Overlay" to "Height"
Aristocrat
