Nobody wants to level in mech mode because its not favorable, if you level in mech mode you set yourself up for STUN city. Volt can L1,L2,L3 into a gank, Bat can nade you into a gank not to mention His L1 rapes Mechs L1. His L1 also has lag time, while mines/splash damage are instant. Not a favorable scenario.

EDIT: Has some merits during the day admittedly, However at night, just no.

No, mines are not instant, most of the time they have to be set up. All you need to do is time Mech L1 to hit right when the spawns meet. Don't stand right next to the spawn... you want to be as close to your base as possible, hitting with the edge of your L1, take advantage of the range. You should also have enough for vulture transformation at night to easily run away, place a mine for surveillance if you need to. Mech should exp easy.

What is faster, 3-6 mines already placed at the point of clashing with obscene amounts of armor at broods/lings, or a laggy mech L1 nuke, thats not guarranteed to kill the whole clash and thats mediocre at best for for 2x exp. I'll let you decide that one. Not to mention the SpecOps will just DPS you down in mech mode, even worse if its power. There is a reason pro mechs stick to bike mode, micro-training, micro-harass, L4 Bombing, fast double L3 suprise e.t.c. Limiting those options just for a laggy L1 nuke that isnt guarnateed to rape the whole clash and a chance to die at night? No thanks. I'll take the bike mode please.

Mech mode at night vs good people is death. When you transform there is downtime, Enough for Volt (Worst canse scenario because you are using mana to nuke spawns and he has 2 stuns that drain mana, smartest idea? No.)/Bat/War stun, not to mention DM's snare. Just do it versus pubs, not good people.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 4 2010, 11:31 pm by DoLLe.

Mine pre-placement vs spawn placement is not always consistent. At the "point of clashing" is not always instant as your team's spawn may get in the way, causing the mines to not detonate at all at times. Also the mines have to unburrow. As for Mech L1, it does not lag, it is delayed. If you can't time a 2.5ish sec delay, then I guess you shouldn't use it. If you are good with using L1, you can kill 75%-100% of the clash almost every time (save for a few spawns that a harassing enemy might kill, but in that case, they would steal kills from any other grinding hero anyway). Vulture micro training is worse if you are being harassed because you have less hp, and less damage (meaning you will either take more hits, or kill less spawns depending on how you play). If you are talking about training w/o harassment, mech L1, I can kill all (or all -2) every time. Of course L2 is better for PKing, but that wasn't the discussion at hand. Mech should always grind next to base and as close as possible. You can use mines to spot volt ahead of time, and of course, when you see him, you should immediately run. Mech can usually outlive a stun by waiting until his hp is 1-2 hits from dying, then transforming (usually adding 2-4 seconds on top of transforming time and untouched vulture hp). In the worst case scenario, you are caught off-guard by an early L3 volt-stun/warrior-stun (which basically kill anyone at night grinding anyway, so this isn't the best argument to use), I would rather trade 1 life for 40-50% more exp (20-25% if you did use mech L1 at day). Why even mention DM? She won't be able to kill mech unless she at L4 (in which time, you'll have much more exp than her, and can PK her) She can only disrupt you from grinding by using ally curse, in which case, you can manual spawns and still exp. Bat has concussive dmg, and doesn't stun very long- a transform dodge should save you.

I main DM, and I always win VS mech late game. Always. Don't even fight me on this one.

Against a good mech a DM wont be able to touch the mech.

I have to agree with Olimar here, Mech alone cant touch a DM at night late game and the DM can just l2 his way out of most predicaments in the daytime.

Mech owns Dm hands down.

If you let a DM get L4 and 300+ mana you will have a hard time killing him.

EDIT: unless your a rine with a ton of mana and l3

I'll let someone else explain why for me, I'm too lazy

I get what your saying but a late game DM is REALLY hard to take down. Your gonna say that mech is faster and has incredible range and can manual but a smart DM doesn't just rush headfirst at a mech and should be snaring the mech so he doesnt get too close.

Again, 3-6mines already placed at the clash point with Rine/Power rine DPSing you down with auto-attacks/stray mines vs a Laggy delayed nuke that wont always kill clashes in your arguably shittiest form. Good luck training.

As far as a volt stun situation goes, if you werent in mech form but in bike form, you probably wouldnt be getting combo'd in the first place would you. Early game L1->L3 shuts any transformation antics you have out the window.


Cute statement but Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Stop playing pubs and bads.
PROTIP: DM cannot escape Double L3! End Game L4 1shots you!

Why hes better than EndGame DM:

-Double L3 is his only move that has lag. But guarantees huge damage with minimal risk due to your crappy speed.
-He kites you all day with range,speed,double L3.
-L4 has no lag, while he destroys your curse with manual.
-You get anywhere near him he L4's nuking you with over proably 20+ ups.
-L4 is instantaneous while all your moves lag like molasses.
-Snare wont help you vs bike mode.
-Hes Unmaelable.
-He outfarms you.
-He can trans out of L4 your L4.
-Did i mention he pretty much oneshots you?
-I coulda sworn I mentioned he 1shots you.
-Armor negates any killing potential your L4 could do to him, besides he outfarms you.
-Way more HP's.

End Double L3 DESTROYS anything DM can do, by far his safest approach and best damage dealer to you if hes scared. He farms WAY better than DM by far late game. Hes way too flexible to lose 1v1 late game to DM. Any manual with L4 results in your death. He can kite you with double L3 from massive range. If L3 doesnt finish you off endgame, then he will just follow up with Bike mode-> L4. Not mention he can mass spawn you way easier than you can him. End game you are food to him. What you are going to use L4? Cute, mass armor. GG he rapes you. For you to finish him, you actually have to be somewhat in melee range, against a good mech, lol not going to happen. Also he can mass sim the map on you, what are you going to do, SimHunt him? Doubtful.

Only way you are going to get him is with a cloak gimp at night, probably not going to happen against someone skilled.

Seriously, people, Endgame DM rapes mech? Get your mind correct.

This whole statement made me LuLz.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on May 5 2010, 6:00 am by DoLLe.

I never said the DM rapes mech i said the DM is hard to kill, personally i would see a double l3 coming from a mile away and prepare accordingly.

If the opponent is going power rine, he won't have enough mana for mines every wave and you will just end up splashing all the spawns. Also, rine won't have enough mana for 6 mines every wave, even if he goes pure mana. If you can kill at least 50% of your team's spawn EVERY time, and kill 60% of the enemy team's spawn EVERY time (which is easy to do), you've just made more than you could in vulture form, even if you killed every spawn. I average around 150-190% of the spawn, MAYBE not against rine, but I'm not ALWAYS fighting a rine that's grinding in my lane. Not everyone is harassing you all the time either.

Honestly, what you are saying, applies to just about any other hero... your rine laying 6 mines every wave will pretty much steal anyone else's feed, if executed correctly. Also volt L1 > L3 pretty much shuts down anyone.

Hey man, I totally love bashing bads and noobs myself! Did I tell you the story of how my LM totally raped this medic?!


Yes, prepare by being oneshotted by endgame mech because he can outrange you perfectly and you have no avenue of escape from his 20-25+ Upgrade tanks of rape.



If you know what you doing, then no, shes not hard to kill. I gave all the reasons why she falls to mech. I don't see how someone is hard to take down when you can Outrange DM, Out DPS DM, OneShot DM, Outfarm DM, OutHarass, Outmaneuver DM, Out HP DM, Mass Sim the DM , OutManuals The DM, Outspawn the DM, Mapcontrol DM, Unmaelable, Outarmor her ONLY DPS Spell. Now with all those advantages that Mech posesses, how does any of this resemble difficult?

This is a Slam Dunk for Mech, not hard at all. Get your mind correct.

Sniper rifle helps, but once he has Mine drone its gg, shes confined and cannot do anything, and will promptly be spawn raped to death. Pro DM probably wouldnt let it get to endgame vs rine anyways, its a toss up here mostly in DM's favor.


Three mines is enough to destroy a clash, Six guarantees the clash is destroyed, hence why i said 3-6.

You just proved my point. "MAYBE NOT AGAINST RINE!" becuase he can deny you farm 10x easier than you can him not to mention he out DPS's you in mech mode by far. Hybrid Rine will also destroy you in terms of HP and Mana (3HP + 200mana kit comes to mind here). Mech isn't supposed to be using mana to train in his crappiest form. Mech mode is ASKING to be gimped and ganked. The reasons I brought up L1->L3 is because its guaranteed if you are in mechmode no questions asked HOWEVER if you are in Bikemode the chance of this happening is relatively low. Do you get what I'm saying?

Lets Recap Shall We:
-Mech L1 splash training vs bat: Not viable at all, Web destroys any training you have in mech mode, plus a slight chance for being Weblocked, no thanks. Also nade set-ups galore
-Mech splash vs Volt: May have some use vs mana volt, but if hes mana volting you hes thinking shorterm (fast L1-L3 Gimp) or moronic. If hes got 3HP kit, then spells get out the lane in mech mode, you lose.
-Mech vs Rine: We already discussed this
-MEch vs DM: If you stay in mech mode and she snares you, pretty much a guaranteed L3 with proper spacing.


Just because one scenario applies to one hero doesnt mean the same applies to another (I.e Rine is stealing mechs feed doesnt mean hes going to steal Volts feed.). For example, rine will not steal everyone elses feed (Bat,Volt,DM DESTROY him if he tries to do this including War). You can say "WELL HE CAN DO IT AGAINST BAT,WAR,DM,VOLT BY DOING THIS AND X,Y,X. Anyone with half a brain would not let rine splash train, meaning no pubs and bads.

Post has been edited 8 time(s), last time on May 5 2010, 6:27 pm by DoLLe.

Maybe does not mean definitely, nor was I saying that he completely shuts me out of spawn. I was just stating that I MIGHT not get 150-190% of the spawn kills vs rine. Time your L1 to hit before the mines do, sure you may not get as many spawns as you could this way, but at least you get some, and rine doesn't get all. You think vulture is better for grinding vs a rine? You have less hp, less dmg, and can't splash. Microing is a pretty slow process compared to many other ways of killing spawn (even with your max ROF)- it takes far longer than a well placed L1, which means that the mines would have hit ages ago. If you micro before the mines, rine will just shoot you up with your small hp. You keep saying Volt L1 > L3 kills mech- well not if it doesn't hit you, just run away ahead of time. Mines on the gank-paths at night so you can see him coming. If you are grinding against volt mid-game and you really want to be safe, just cannon-hug. L1 has enough range to shoot spawns from the cannons. For DM, just transform to vult if she snares you. She should have to snare you from a distance, since you should always be using your L1's range- which should give you enough time to transform and run away during the spell's warmup. I would only agree that Bike mode is better vs bat (and conditionally vs DM). Bike mode is usually only okay when grinding by yourself (but in that case, you can usually grind just as fine as goliath w/o L1). Bike mode is best for hunting, retreating, and micro, Tank is best for tanking and killing buildings, Goliath is a well-rounded form best at killing spawns and is mana-efficient.

Micro harasses rine out of the lane. Thats why you stay in bike mode. With proper micro he cannot touch you. However in mech mode you are going to be DPSed down into bike mode (if you have the mana since you are using L1 to farm) From auto-attacks/mines anyways. Pro mech should be hybrid anyways, 2hp kit standard, 3hp kit for ultra defensive. My overall point is rine can deny you out the lane WAY easier than you can him.

You are not outrunning a volt in mech mode sorry, especially one that knows how to position, in mech mode you are handing him a free kill. Gol form sucks, slow speed, maybe good for auto-attacking spawn, overall it sucks. He can also set you up for L2->L1 Stun-gank while you are in mech mode, forgot to mention that.

Glad you agree with bat, overall just a waste of time vsing him anyways in lane as mech.

Agree with DM situation, she still has the oppurtunity to L3 you though if you are in mech mode, which is almost an insta gib vs mech at that stage in the game. I Apologize, didnt mean to imply it was a given.

Silently waiting for m9.

Unfortunately the 3.4 noobs are not going to even try it, as 100% of them told me "dont care" when I told them about m8 coming soon.

But let's keep our hopes up high.

Tell them the guy who did 3.4 is doing M9, and putting 3.4 stuff in. Maybe I'll call it C1 to avoid the hate.

Anyways, still on track for release friday(night though). I might not have a few things done like Capping visuals, but multi-select will be. And since I think that's the main feature, I'll just release whatever I was able to do on top of that. I'm sure I'll need to do M9b after a week from all the bugs it might cause, so the unfished stuff will get tacked on there.

I've been doing that, since I know most people wouldn't wanna play another m8.

And thats okay, i really wanna see this multi-select thing. I have heard some people saying that it's a bad idea, though. They didn't really have a reason, other than thats not the way the game should be.

at C1

BTW, is rine still gonna have the same l3?