Oh.. dear.. god..

I swear everything you say is countered by right clicking away from the enemy.

So let me get this straight, you are going to chase the spirits right while the medic is standing on the cap pad, microing the spirit which has a natural 2 armor. Getting in free shots, not to mention the potshots she took at you approaching the cap without a spirit. She is spirit capping and freefarming while you are running back and she probably has even more attack this time. Then, you are still going to run back, heal, then return to the cap thinking you its going to be yours, if you arent talking about bottom cap, not likely. Meaning you lost the cap, meaning she beat you to the cap meaning, she out beats you in capping (Ling vs med). Which was my original point. Most likely if she isnt a complete Moron, she will lead the spirit microing it taking shots at you, and even microing it into allied spawn since YOU insist on chasing this spriit you are going to take even more damage! And she does full damage to you. You arent capping. Its over. And then you insist on tanking a Medic whos HP gap is going to put her into an advantageous position (thats not even taking into consideration if she was healed by the spirit!)

Think about what you are saying! You are acting as if the medic is asleep at the wheel! And the spirit is 120 hp 2armor and moving! How many shots is that?!

Can you honestly not chase down a spirit using a mutant?

You forgot to mention that Medic is constantly healing while Mutant isn't chasing meds.

Edit:
Chase and kill are two different things. You kill a medic? Good for you, you are now down to 100 hp and just lost the cap.

Chase it, kill it, grab a level, go back to heal, while yelling at a teammate to go stall for one second. It's a fairly rare case when whoever's mid or at the base nearest to you isn't fast enough to hop down or up to where you are to stop the cap.

To Potentially lose the cap or take more damage to come cover your ass for trying to cap vs a medic. People regen mana during this period of your buddy going to stall, which means that if he comes back hes probably in a world of hurt. And you forget the medic can heal! There are 4 other people doing battle with all diferent movespeeds, what you are saying isnt even logical pertaining to the original point. Ling cannot beat med out of a cap BY HIMSELF. I will re-iterate.

-she approaches she shoots you, ok you move and go feed behidn her
-she starts healing and leveling
-you come chase healing spirits who are 120 HP 2 armor, while she probably has more HP than you taking potshots at like 21 + 10, also granting you were tanking spawns yourself with no healing mechanism
-Somewhere among this you two level shes probably at 5atk as are you, and you are probably still chasing meds or "tanking" the medic" while shes doing somewhere between 21+15 through 21+25 damage, where do you factor in that you are going to win this cap? huh? and Probably has another spirit on the way. Im serious think about this how are you going to win?

In conclusion:
She heals
Has range
More starting HP
Can spirit cap
Two shots before you can get in melee range
Better capper

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 1 2010, 1:31 am by DoLLe.

Now IF this Medic player had no mouse
and IF you killed the medic and got xp
and IF you managed to heal and get back while having an ally drop everything he was doing, run all the way to the cap and back again in time without losing his chances of whatever he was doing in the first place

Then how on earth do you plan on going round 2 with the Medic who just healed a large chunk of hp and probably has 5-7 upgrades instead of 2 by now.

Maybe I need to go grab some replays of mutant beating out medic to show you. I'm fairly sure it's possible, even without an ally helping.

I could be wrong, of course, in which case I'll apologize. Unfortunately I have little SC access right now, so it may be a week or three before I have any replays.

Keep in mind that this is the M8 thread and the cap block location is tiny so there's no way for the ling to stall without taking hits. And if you're talking about 3.4, then wrong thread. But yeah, medic beats ling. Ling is melée, and even with it's speed, it's still hard to chase units down simply because they are moving and you are melée. I doubt you can find a replay of a ling beating a GOOD medic.

Also, how's a ling supposed to beat a mech? I play mech in a lot of my games, and I don't remember ever losing to a ling. I have beaten a mech with ling, but I don't think the mech was very good.

Beating mech needs spawn manipulation and is far from easy, maybe it can't be done against a very pro mech but at about B+ level I can do it about 80 percent of the time, which is decent. Oh, and that never works in mid, only top or bottom.

If the mech can micro good it will win. If it cant, too bad mech.

Lol there is no way any Mech who understands the most basic concepts of micro should lose to a Zergling. Sorry. If you want to stall, fine, I'll last hit everything and you'll get nothing. If you want to try to win, you'll die.

^Agreed. With that said, ling has generally has no slam dunk matchups in the base race, while others have a much easier time due to Higher HP, DPS, Escape mechanism, e.t.c. However he is a good staller, nowhere near a good capper. His natural movespeed gives him such great stall qualities. However, no armor, extremely low starting HP, and low starting damage, and no starting DPS means his not suited be a good capper.

In skilled matches, be prepared to probably wait for help to cap as muatant, or maybe lose it all together. Especially with popular openers like SpecOps and Med.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 1 2010, 5:05 pm by DoLLe.

Cheater.

@last hitting everything, what kind of noob mutant tries to feed while sitting right next to mech? Feed closer to the mech's base, stall between waves. Ezy money.

THE DARK MAGE MATCH-UPS ANALYSIS
I read over the topic recently, and one thing that sticks out in my head is how people perceive DM as overpowered. Shes powerful but no-where near overpowered so I thought I'd make a matchups post about her, so here goes nothing among a few other things here goes nothing.

DM vs Assualt
This is in the bats favor for sure. He can auto attack through curse, cancel her L4 by entering dpship over water, webbing himself to avoid damage, faster, and save others from her with web, and out-exps you (moreso in M8e because web doesnt drain mana). Not to mention he can gimp orb with his L3 and L2. However if she lands a mael on him in a gank it can pretty much be lights out for him, generally you want to avoid this guy without help, hes way more versatile and overall stronger than you are. Due to your slow speed, he will chase you with bomber if you are weak, assess any blow for blow trades with this guy because he can catch up to you very fast, map awareness is key. Always snare his Bomber for assists/escapes. Watch for his nades setting you up as well. Not to mention he stalls you at capping FOREVER. However you do rape nuke, take not of that. Also Berserker Bombs will regular or manualed through curse will end you.

DM vs Medic
Annoying match-up , but your L3 and L4 wind up eats through her disable, not to mention you have mael set-ups to land each one accordingly cause you will only have one shot for 20 seconds, I think L3 is preferred overall. In lane though she smacks you with way better harass damage than you can ever do, however consistent landed curses will eat at her exp. This is dangerous though because a landed disable can set you up for disaster. These two generally cancel each other out. Though In my opinion DM wins out if she lands L3. LAnd L3 and mael, and start beating face. If you Land L4 it can eat through FH monsterously fast with decent ups. Feed off meds with feedback for yummy exp. Beware of FH infi cloak hijinx at night or else you will most likely die to a suprise disable-n-gank which will most likely end in an dirt-nap. Dont be afraid to mael her to set-up combos or spells, medic and restore takes longer than you think.

DM vs Assassin
You probably wont ever kill him, and most likely same goes for him. There are a few things to not here however. His ability to kill you is greater than yours is to kill him. Though your harass potential is FAR greater than his, and you can dominate his farm completely. Mael and curse him and he cannot exp. When he is approaching you to L4, Curse will not stop the wind-up and eat you beaware of this. If you dont have have any detectors on your team you will have to be extra vigilant at night also watch your orb cause he will try to hunt it for quick case cause his farm sucks. Beware of him at night also if you dont have detectors because, you might have to guard the base. If he hits 15 ups he is more than capable of soloing your Temple by himself, this is not factoring in L4 (this is also compounded if he has all caps). It will take two nights before you say goodbye to your temple. Be aware of this, call him out on his game and force him back to his own temple.

DM vs Warrior
Wow, you slam this guy pretty hard. Careful of spawn jump tacts with L3. However he can stalemate you to the point where you cannot kill him through armor and L1 and L4, with your own L4. If hes still living mid-late game he can be threat, he knows he cant kill you but he will set-you up in a stunlock and L4 to assist his teamates be aware of this. Mael and smash him all day.

DM vs Volt
This guy is a HUGE threat to you, but snare destroys him so bad. However, he can still tear you to shreads and stunlock you, and he out EXPS you and hes unmaelable. Also a smart volt will generally get surronded by your L4 and and counter with his own L3 to mitigate damage and escape, though this is rare. Generally avoid him, if he lands a L3 on you, might as well call if a life. Harass with L2 when you can. When he has L4 hes near unkillable just snare it and run, curse will not work on him. If you know he doesnt have L4 (If he doesnt hes probably a scrub) snare him and L4. However careful when doing this cause he will try to kamikaze L3 you and let his teamates clean you up whiles hes dying to Curse of Swarms.

DM vs LM
Not as easy as you'd think, hard to mael if he reavers your orb every time feeding him, and hes double feeding in lane. His L1 can deny you maels. He will Deny you out the lane eventually, and harass you with reavers. At night however cloak Snare/L3/L4/Curse/autoattack him and rape accordingly. Beaware if he has L4 hes not approachable and you will most likely eat a faceful of pain. Cloak approachs work best with him.

DM vs Mutant
Mostly in your favor, be warned sloppy play will end up with pissed teamates and an orb fed mutant running rampant. However, you need to end him and contain ASAP because once he has a decent mana pool and L4, its lights out for you. Curse/mael him and punish him if hes stupid enough to attempt to L2/L3 you in broad day. He will use his speed to his advantage space you out for breathing room, and use burrow to dodge maels. At night he will set you up with lurker bombs/Super claws and if you keep your orbs nearby you will feed him to no end. At night be EXTRA vigilant, map awareness is key with him. If he uses L4 in an attempt to 3-4shot you, mael and duck to safety. Mael pressure him all day, containment and catching him over extending himself is key. Once he gets decent lurker ups and L4, you are finished, he will space you out with lurkerbombs and if you come close he will trans and run, finish him ASAP, you have the upper hand early and mid game, once he hits rines he will become a monster. Exploit it to the fullest, mael. curse. beat face.

DM vs Archer
He can still manual mutas through curse, proper micro of his companions can destroy you, and orb feed, and he can burrow maels. However, you still overall rape him, despite this take note hes another one where you cannot let him get pumped and let run rampant. Take advantage of sloppy companion management and feed of any maeled companion groups that you catch. His Guards end game will pound your face in and space you, while he cleans you up with his companions. End him fast, early and mid game, hes susceptable to Maels->Curse->Auto-Attacks, Or just Mael->L4 can do. At night, rape him with whatever, hes susecptable to suprise mael and cloak, hes afraid of you at night, pressure him during this time. Contain him, and end him early. If you really doing him in he will circumnavigate you and aim for your temple with companions, dont let it come to this, you have small window of oppurtunity to shut down this guy, use it.

DM vs Summoner
Not much you can do. Probably your hardest counter. HP is a must. Proper use of cloak is your best friend at night. Prudent Use of mael, storm and even snare will save your ass. In newer version he has snare, and he can infested bomb your orbs before moving in on you. However, if you manage to infaltrate his base, hit him with a full combo to disable him.

DM vs Mech
Here is another who can destroy you with relative ease. HP is a must for survival. He has Lots of HP, Good escape mechanisms, good speed, high powered nukes, good range, can manual you, unmaelable. Keep orbs away from this guy. He will manual you to death with vultures and mech modes, and watch for High-powered Double L3 gimps if hes spacing you farther than usual. When hes about 13+ ups his L4 will probably kill you outright without proper HP upgrades even then, you probably wont escape. Toned down in M8 series he still rapes you, however in the cap race you clown him, snare destroys Tank and mech modes. However a landed L3/L4 is great for you and your teamates. You really want L3 to land because hes so heavily mana dependant and slows him drastically. Dont expect to kill him outright and generally avoid him.

DM vs SpecOps
Can go either way, however hes another who can spiral out of control fast. He can out exp you greatly, and his L4 makes him near unapproachable by you effectively containing you. Hes generally not safe from mael, but bunkers/sniper rifle will keep you at bay, not to mention he can nuke you/orb with EMPs for harassment also irridiate is fucking annoying sending you back to base or worse death if you over extend yourself. However if you land a mael, its generally lights out for him, combo him for maximum effect. Sniper rifle at 80 a pop will only get him so far especially if you L2 or L3, tank it at low levels especially since its at +10 now. If he hits L4, you have a long game ahead of you. He reached his peak and will effectively contain you for the rest of the game, how send orbs over mines to assist to just splash.

Talk. Flame. Discuss.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on May 1 2010, 11:11 pm by DoLLe.

I disagree with your DM vs Mutant paragraph. Early game, mutant just chases down any summoned orb. If it gets sent back to base, it's of no concern and he can stall for a long period of time. If he kills it, that's a level or two, enough to get him well on his way to a rushed lvl2. Once he has level2, DM shouldn't be able to kill him without help.

That's early game of course. Mid game is a different matter. DM l2 makes mutant l2 of no effect, and by then orb should be able to get several stuns in. Mutant is probably outclassed head to head midgame, although night time lurks or a l2 in a choke can be effective. Late game, mutant dominates. Manual lurks or l4 if DM goes l2 + l4, lurker bombs especially at night.

That whole scenario you posted hinges on you killing 200/50 orb at level 1 and hoping for a level or two, which is mostly going to happen in some random pubby match. Again, im not talking about about pub/noob level game. In no way shape or form does a ling have any counter to an opening DM , barring some type of HUGE skill gap or a well timed burrow which doesnt even mean you won the cap, you just dodged the first mael.

DM is going leaving orb behind for about a mael and a half until and brings it back, when she knows she can auto attack you to death. Good Dm will not give you the chance to chase it and when its in range for you to chase it, its not idling; its there to mael you and it only needs like maybe 10 nrg for its first mael. Strict in and out affair. If you actually chase it then she will draw the orb closer to herself while chase then mael you. Not to mention 1000 start hp vs 600 HP starting gap, and she has snare and storm. Equal skill in effect, you are not winning early game vs DM. Mutant is bad during the cap race, only good at stalling. While DM can cap,stall, and PK during this time.

Mutant should be stalling and getting minerals and leveling, not chasing pets 24/7 during cap process. I dont understand, why do you insist on chasing everything?

As far as your second paragraph, i stated all those things. Manualing lurks is useless.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on May 2 2010, 1:50 am by DoLLe.

M9 will be done before the 15th